Microsoft Certifiation

[HowTo]

I am a newbie and i want to become a dot net developer in my future.Hence i want to undergo some microsoft certifications which will help me in my near future to get a good job.But i am confused which way to go.I have not started my career yet.I am thinking about the MCAD certification but i cant understand if i am thinking right or not.......so i need some experts view about this and need their suggestions so that i can start towards the correct direction.Please suggest.
Thank you

[Hack]

No one can point out the right direction for someone else. What direction do you want to go in?

[HowTo]

you are right but i just want hear experts suggestion about this certification matter(since it is very costly and dont want to take a wrong step since it is very very important for a freshers career like mine).Is the MCAD certification a good choice for a freshers?Whats your opinion about this hack?

[techgnome]

Judging by this: http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en....aspx#section2 ... probably... Might want to look at the MCPD (Microsoft Certified Professional Developer) as a stepping stone to getting MCAD. I think MCPD takes 4-5 exams to get (ones you would have to get for MCAD anyways) then you can later "upgrade" to MCAD by taking just a couple more exams.

-tg

[HowTo]

thanks for the reply tg

basically i am really very confused.......can you please tell what you tried to mean by this:

ones you would have to get for MCAD anyways

[HowTo]

one more thing:Recently vs 2010 has launched,so would i take the certification on vs 2005(something a bit old) or i might go for the vs 2008 certification?

[techgnome]

Let's say that the exams for MCAD are Exams A, B, C, D, E, F, & G.
The exams for MCPD are A, D, E & G

So you have to take A, D, E & G anyways... so start there, get the MCPD, then go back later and take B, C & F. That gives you both the MCPD, and the MCAD. The MCAD is a higher level certification anyways. And as you pointed out, you're still early in your career.

Be warned though... some of these tests are designed so that you'll need to have practical experience, so right out of the gate, I don't know how well some one will do. At least that's the intent... it's done in an effort to prevent paper certifications. The success of which is debatable.

-tg

[HowTo]

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en...t-vstudio.aspx

it tells to start with the TS: Microsoft .NET Framework – Application Development Foundation

will this be fine for me to work on with?

without the TS: Microsoft .NET Framework – Application Development Foundation ; cant i go for the MCPD?

[HowTo]

Be warned though... some of these tests are designed so that you'll need to have practical experience, so right out of the gate, I don't know how well some one will do. At least that's the intent... it's done in an effort to prevent paper certifications. The success of which is debatable.

-tg

looking at this reply of yours tg,i am eager to ask you a straight forward question

is it really very hard to clear the certification exams for a freshers like me who dont have a practical experience?

did you gave an exam for the certification?

[HowTo]

having a look at this site:
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en...udio.aspx#tab3
if i am not wrong then MCTS certification on Visual Studio 2008 requires me to pass the Exam 70-536: TS: Microsoft .NET Framework, Application Development Foundation

and looking at the certification prerequisites of MCPD tells me to be a MCTS certified ; then only i can persue the MCPD certification.........oops such a long process


am i getting it correct?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I'd start by asking what paper experience you DO have? After all, nobody has yet suggested what I would recommend, which would be to save your money. Lots of us have no certification, or even degrees in this subject. All we have is experience. For my part, I have an MS....in Zoology. I spent a decade and a half as a fish biologist writing programs on the side (there is a huge need for data management in pretty nearly all sciences, which means that programming skill will be put to use even if the employer doesn't know they need it when you are hired) before changing my official title. I'm now paid as a developer, yet I have never taken a course or certification in anything computer related (on the other hand, I CAN tell you the sex of a steelhead smolt, which is a rare skill to find in a developer).

Experience is much more valuable than certifications when it comes to employment. However, without experience, and without a scholastic background in computer related areas, certification might be a good way to gain employment. What is right for you depends a lot on your circumstances.

[HowTo]

I am a final year engineering student and i am im computer science department.I will be completing the engineering in june this year.Now since i did not have any job.....neither i have experience..........so i decided to have a go at the certification so that it will be a bit easier for me to get the job......

but i am confused what certification to take and tats it............

sorry if i irritated any one of you with my questions.....bt i did not mean to irritate any one over here

i apologise

[techgnome]

No one's irritated, but Shaggy brings up a point. I currently hold certification.... in VB6, I got it back in 99. Doesn't do me a lot of good now. I also lack a degree... I have an Associates, that's it. When I got the certification, it was after only about 4 years VB experience, 3 with VB3/4 and one with VB6... But I had well over a dozen years of programming experience (of varying practicalness).

Here's something else to consider... many employers will pay for the certification exams for you. All of my exams have been paid for this way. During the interview, mention that you would like to get certified, and ask if they provide reimbursement or pay for the certification exams. Certifications may be a differentiator, but nothing is a substitute for experience. And generally speaking it in no ways has an impact on your salary. The times I've seen certifications make a difference is when you've got two candidates with the same degrees, experiences and knowledge. If the only difference between the two is a certification, employers MAY lean towards the one with the Cert.... but it depends on if they understand what it means. I've been in a few situations where they clearly don't.

-trg

[HowTo]

I agree that experience dominates over the certification but if it comes in terms of getting a job for a freshers then dont you think that at least he should go for a certification if he is struggling to get a job after all everyone starts their career from freshers and everyone has good some good phase and some bad phase in their life..........is nt it

[techgnome]

Point was that if you've got some one with no experience but has a certification... and some one with not certification, but has experience.... who do you go with?

Unless the slot is specifically an entry level, designed for the person just starting out.... it's going to go to the experienced. It's going to go to the person who should be able to hit the ground running. or at least at a jog. A lot depends on the origanization. I'm not trying to talk you out of it... just making sure you understand the realities of the way it works out there. I can tell you here, a cert isn't going to mean diddly. But we're not an entry level kind of organization. And I've even seen some half-decent developers let go too. And at, what? $150 a pop for certification, to get the MCAD, you're going to be shelling out close to $600... and it's still no guarantee that it'll help.

-tg

[StevnS]

If your looking to become certified, I would not recommend setting you sights on the MCAD. Based on the description on Microsoft's site, the MCAD is for .Net version 1.1. The current equivalent cert would be the MCPD for .Net 3.5. There are 3 tests required to become certified. After completing the first 2 exams you will have your MCTS. The 3rd exam is what earns the MCPD. I am actually attending a boot camp training class this week to earn my MCPD. I have completed test 70-536 and 70-562, so technically as of this afternoon I am an MCTS. I have my final exam (70-564) Wednesday. The company that is providing my boot camp training is CED Solutions. It has been a great experience so far. With their help, I have passed both of the tests that I have taken on my first try. If your interested check out their web site at http://www.cedsolutions.com/. Since you don't have a lot of real world experience, I would say that you are really gonna need some assistance with passing the exams. These guys can give you the help your gonna need!

[baja_yu]

How much are those certifications valued/worth? Because, what I see on the website StevenS gave, in my book, those are very picey. Can you take just the tests without prior 'training' and is that cheaper?

How do the exams/tests look like in general, what type of questions, how long does it last etc?

[StevnS]

You can certainly prep on your own. The books for each test are about 60.00 a piece. Its a lot of material and can be difficult to follow if you havent been doing .Net development for a while. Also the tests are > 100.00 per test. It is cheaper to try on your own, but you have to pay per attempt to pass the test. So if it takes you 5 times to pass one test, then your paying for it 5 times. So potentially, if you fail enough it could cost you quite a bit of money.

[HowTo]

Point was that if you've got some one with no experience but has a certification... and some one with not certification, but has experience.... who do you go with?
-tg

as i told earlier,i also agree that experienced are more valuable than certified persons...but thats not the point in my case......I am not talking about experienced since i am a freshers myself(unlike you all experts )
doing these certifications,i am just trying to give an outside chance for getting a job(at least attracting the hr's intension who will interview a group of freshers within which only a few had done the certification).

[HowTo]

hi StevnS,

thanks for the reply.i had looked at the microsoft learning site and i am a bit confused,hence i decided to post a question here so that i can clear my confusion here.Please Please reply all my questions:

1) i am going to start with Exam 70-536: TS: Microsoft .NET Framework, ApplicationDevelopment Foundation,so do i need to select the language before undertaking the exam?

2) Is the exam Exam 70-536: TS: Microsoft .NET Framework, ApplicationDevelopment Foundation for the .net framework 2.0 or is it for .net framework 3.5 ? (Since i want to take the certification for the .net framework 3.5)

3) After completing the Exam 70-536: TS: Microsoft .NET Framework, ApplicationDevelopment Foundation,how many more exams do i need to pass to get the MCTS ?

4) Then after MCTS,how many more exams do i need to pass to become a MCPD ?

5) Hence can i say that MCPD is a super set of MCTS ?

6) I have heard that i have to score 700 out of 1000 to pass the exam,so may i know how many questions are their in the Exam 70-536: TS: Microsoft .NET Framework, ApplicationDevelopment Foundation and whats the time limit to attend these questions?

7) Last but not the least, will i get a scope for giving the exam a second time if i fail the first time with the same coupon?

Please answer to my questions.....thank you

[jmcilhinney]

70-536 is .NET 2.0 but it is the first step in pretty much all .NET 2.0 and 3.5 MCTS certs. MCTS takes a minimum of two exams and MCPD takes a minimum of one more.

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en...6&Locale=en-us
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en...t-vstudio.aspx

There's a world wide web out there.

[FunkyDexter]

If Im understanding you correctly your motivation is to get employment, not to get certified. Getting certified is a means to an end. Is that right?

If so I'd raise the same caution as Shaggy and TG. Microsoft certifications are:-
1. Expensive
2. Difficult to obtain unless you're using the technology daily. They're going to ask you questions like "Which versions of Visual Studio Support XYZ feature?" Unless your using the tools all the time you're not going to know the answers to those questions because... well... why would you?
3. Probably not going to help you find a job anyway. Your engineering qualification is already going to be far more valuable to you than any Microsoft cert.

With that in mind I would say to you, don't waste your money. There are better ways of achieving your goal and they're pretty much free - the cost of a couple of telephone calls and an email. The trick is to contact companies in you area direct and speak to the decision maker (usually the development manager but it can change from organisation to organisation). If you do this you'll be amazed how ready these guys aer to talk to you. They're always impressed if you can be proactive and this approach found me work several times when I was just getting going - once I had a job offer within a week of starting to hunt. I'll post a link back in a sec that describes my whole aproach. There are two caveats with this aproach:-
1. You need to be thick skinned - people are going to tell you "no" alot but don't take it to heart, it's really just bad timing that you happened to phone them when they weren't looking.
2. When you do get a job the company probably wasn't aiming to recruit - they're taking a punt on you. That often means that they won't be able to find enough work to justify the cost of hiring you and you'll be redundant in 6 months time. That's OK though - you'll have 6 months experience on your CV and be much better placed for a more orthodox job hunt. After a couple of jobs you're into your carrer and things start rolling.




edit> Here you go. Link to a more thorough explanation

[Shaggy Hiker]

Having sat on both sides of the hiring table several times, I can't endorse what FD suggested strongly enough. If you want to spend money on preparations, get some interview coaching. Interview well, and you can turn in soiled toilet paper for a resume and you'll get hired (well, maybe not quite that far, but you get the idea). We had loads of applicants with all kinds of backgrounds. Degrees and certifications mattered least of all. Of course, experience mattered most, and you have already stated that you lack that, but references were good, and personal contact was invaluable.

Having said that, let me emphasize something else that FD alluded to: Speak to the decision maker. HR departments might be your friend once you are hired, but they are your enemy up until that time. I can tell you of a personal case where I hired a guy with zero experience in the job I was hiring, even though he had been filtered out by a lower layer. I had heard from a friend of mine who told me not to pass him over, so I overruled HR and interviewed him. He worked for me for several years and we're still friends, though we have both gone on to different jobs.

Get past HR and get to the manager. If that is impossible at company X, go to company Y. Not only is experience FAR more valuable than certifications, you get paid for experience, whereas you pay for certification.

[techgnome]

I think more and more companies are waking up to what you just stated there Shaggy... Here, IT is still somewhat of a novel curiosity. When I started, HR put out the postings, collected the resumes, which were then sent on to the team leaders doing the hiring. HR was smart enough to know that the hiring managers know what they are looking for and so allowed them leeway in those decisions. Within the last couple of weeks, we've hired an HR manager that specializes in technology. Time will tell if that works out or not.

I will say this: Of all the people I work with, I have the least degrees (just a lowly Associates) the only one with any certification (even though it's VB6 and we use .NET) and the only MVP in the company (last I heard I was only only 1 of 2 MVPs in the area, and the other one is an Outlook MVP).

Shaggy raised another point, even if by accident: referrals. Networking... know anyone already working for a company that you want to? Even if they aren't in IT... they may be able to help get your foot in the door. Also... and this is something that's big in this area... Internships... it's a great way to get experience with minimal expectations. Some internships are paid, while others are not, so look carefully. I've seen some places try to use unpaid interns like free slave labor.

-tg

[HowTo]

today i went to salt lake sector 5 area which is a place with lots of companies over here(I live in kolkata,india).I dropped my cv in 4 to 5 companies.But i am not sure whether i will get calls for the interview or not.I asked the security guard to let me talk with the HR but unfortunately they did not allowed me to do the same.Forcing a security guard,he just allowed me to talk with the HR over the phone and the HR told that they are looking for a person having experience of 6 months to 1 year and the post is for WEB DEVELOPER/WEB ARCHITECT;hence i was not eligible for the post.I will be in search of a job for next couple of months and hopefully dropping cvs to the companies may attract HRs since i think giving a hard copy is much better than sending the doc files of the cv over the internet.

If i dont get the job in next couple of months then i might opt for going for a master degree in computer science and engineering(i.e;MTECH in CSE)..........Now let me see what comes for me in future.....

I would like to thanks the experts for letting me know that experience rules over the certifications.......

This is the time when sometimes i really get frustrated but unfortunately its a part of every freshers life and thats it...........

[HowTo]

Can someone tell what the MCP site is all about?

also,one more thing:Is MVP a good thing to look at for guys like me?

[techgnome]

You don't look to become an MVP... it's something that happens to you. It isn't something you can directly actively obtain. Someone else (usually an existing MVP) would need to nominate you, then you go through a review period, and you either get it or you don't. And then each year at around the same time, the cycle repeats. It's not something you are guaranteed from year to year, and is something that is completely different from certification.

-tg

[FunkyDexter]

Is MVP a good thing

Nah... that lot don't know nuffink

One extra piece of advice - don't drop your CV in to companies - email it to the decision maker. This might sound trivial but it actually serves a really important function - it gets you a name (company email address almost always include the individuals name). The initial contact and the CV you sent in aren't what will get you the interview - it's talking to the decision maker that will do that. The initial contact and CV are purely a smokescreen to get the decision makers name because no security guard worth his salt is going to tell you the name of an employee but he'll give you an email address without thinking twice - go figure. Then you phone up a week later, ask for him by name and you'll find that you'll usually get put through. This is actually quite a common trick used by marketting companies when they want to get hold of a decision maker. It might seem a bit underhanded but the only people you're cheating are HR and the receptionist - and, as Shaggy says, they're the enemy right now. It's actually quite surprising how happy the decision maker is to talk to you - I think it provides a welcome break most times.

i am not sure whether i will get calls for the interview or not

Don't wait to find out - phone them yourself! I can't stress this enough. The action that will get you an interview is TALKING to the right person. Anything less than talking to them is a total waste of time - unless it ultimately leads to talking to them.

The same follows post interview by the way. Always give the company a quick ring and say thanks. It just makes you stand out.

The only other thing to add is don't come across as weak and needy. You're a proffessional programmer (albeit one with no experience) and you have something to offer the company that hires you. If you believe this it becomes much easier to convince others of it.

edit>
In true academic style I ought to add a reference. Read the book "What Colour Is My Parachute". Can't remember the author. It's basically where I nicked my approach from.

[techgnome]

And Cover letters! Can't forget those... when you send in your CV, be sure to include a cover letter. This is your chance to introduce yourself, briefly outline your skills and background. BRIEFLY! Not to the same level as your Experience section of the CV. It is also your one shot at being able to say "Here's what I can do for you" as well... everyone already knows what you want them to do for you - give you a job... so you need to show WHY they should give you a shot.

"The only other thing to add is don't come across as weak and needy. " -- hehehe... sometimes that can't be helped when you're out of work and have a family. Fortunately that time in my life was rather short.

Just to roll some numbers at you - 50 resumes and applications went out... I had 8 call backs (including several recruiters) and 3 offers. IT can be daunting sometimes.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

By the way, the people who have been answering here are a couple Yanks and Brits. There are different practices and norms in other cultures. I would expect that business in India is similar due to remaining colonial ties (certainly is with those of us in the US), but your situation could be different.

[baja_yu]

The initial contact and CV are purely a smokescreen to get the decision makers name because no security guard worth his salt is going to tell you the name of an employee but he'll give you an email address without thinking twice - go figure. Then you phone up a week later, ask for him by name and you'll find that you'll usually get put through. This is actually quite a common trick used by marketting companies when they want to get hold of a decision maker. It might seem a bit underhanded but the only people you're cheating are HR and the receptionist - and, as Shaggy says, they're the enemy right now. It's actually quite surprising how happy the decision maker is to talk to you - I think it provides a welcome break most times.

I think I read that exact advice in an informative article on Yahoo News recently.

[HowTo]

ok next time i might try to contact with the CEO or the Director of the company.

one more thing:i am asking this since most of the experts over here have an experience of sitting both sides of the interview chair........

how much does an interviewer expects from a freshers?

basically i want to work in .net(both windows and web applications) and i would prefer the vb besides i can also write some codes in C#.

But my problem is i cant understand XML well,and have tried a lot to understand the remoting in .net and the web services but these are the portions that i cant understand.At the same time i think these are a bit difficult portions to understand as well in .net.

At te same time i have a good knowledge of the ado.net and state management(Asp.net) and even i have developed a software and a website as a part of our final year project.

So basically i want to know how much does an interviewer expects from a freshers?Do they expect the freshers to have a depth about every topic?

[FunkyDexter]

CEO or the Director of the company

That might be a bit too high up the ladder but it really depends on the size of the company. I usually found that I was asking for the "development manager". In truth I usually just phoned up and said:-
"High, I'm a developer looking for work and I'd like to send my CV to whoever heads up your software development division. Could you give me an email address or maybe pop me through please"
I never got any more specific than that.

As for what they'd expect of you, I'd say not much if you've been honest about your skills on your CV and when talking to them. Don't be afraid to tell them your still fairly new to programming and don't have every single technology nailed down yet (believe me, experienced programmers don't have everything nailed down either, we're all still learning all the time). Equally, though, don't be afraid to talk about your strengths. ADO.Net is probably one of the most useful skills you can have, particularly if you can back it up with some SQL, because that means you're not just a programmer, your a database programmer. DB programming represents at least 50% of the work out there I reckon. Talk about what you've achieved too. Talk about any projects you've completed - even if they're only little home spun efforts. The point is this, you can't know everything and nobody will expect you to, what you want to show is that your keen, have the basics down and are ready and able to learn any extra bits that the company require.

And if it helps you get a bit of extra confidence, I was recently interviewing for a DB programmer position and I was appalled at the quality of people who I saw. These were supposed to be experienced guys including contracters who should have known their stuff but it was quite clear that many of them had spent years getting by by keeping their heads down. "Experience" does not neccessarily equal ability and it's actually ability we want when recruiting - we just use experience as an indicator of that. Prove that you have ability and the recruiter isn't going to give a monkey's about your lack of experience.



edit> Oh, and don't forget to ask about Graduate programs. I never managed to get into one but I've always reckoned they probably give you the absolute best start to your career.

[gep13]

Can someone tell what the MCP site is all about?

Once you have completed a certification, whether it is the base 70-536 exam, or others, you will be given an MCP ID. Once you have that, you can associate it with your Windows Live ID, which will then allow you to log into the MCP Site. This gives you access to the benefits of being an MCP, from getting your MCP Logos, to getting your Certification Transcript, and sharing that Transcript with other people.

There is also the MCP Store, where you can purchase things like pens, mugs etc.

Gary

[HowTo]

i would like to enhance my knowledge a bit.....i want to learn XML from the very begining.

Can someone please explain the implementation or need of XML in .Net?

In which cases the XML is to be used in .Net?

please help

[gep13]

Hey,

XML isn't only a .Net Technology, it is used across various applications, and operating systems, or a range of different things.

I would suggest that you start off with something like this:

http://www.w3schools.com/xml/default.asp

Gary

[HowTo]

ya i know that it is not .Net Technology......all i want to know is a few circumstances where it would be helpful to use theXML

can you please tell?

thank you

[gep13]

Hey,

As I said, XML can be used in lots of places. For instance:

• You may want to create an XML file that stores configuration data for your application.
• You may not want to use a full blown database, so instead opt for an XML file to store the data that you want (it is possible to export/import an XML file into a .Net DataSet object).
• You may want to transfer information between to disparate systems, so you choose an XML file as the transfer mechanism.

etc

Gary

[HowTo]

and one more problem of mine is the webservices..........
can you tell what web services is all about and in what cases i need to use it to enhance the performance of my asp.net application?

[gep13]

Web services in itself is quite a big topic, is there something in particular that you want to know about Web Services?

Again, they have a range of uses, whether its:

• To help provide a Service Oriented Architecture for your application
• To allow interconnection of disparate systems
• To allow communication between applications on different operating systems
• To act as a layer between your application and your database to reduce attach surface

etc

Gary