No code, just question

[invitro]

I had a question about J++ and C++.
My school is going to be offering C++ course in grade. 11 before they teach J++. Now, why are they doing that. Isen't C++ more advanced? Also their going to be canceling VB 6 entierly soon.

I was thinking it would be better if they were to teach VB in grade 10, J++ in grade 11 and C++ in grade 12. Woulden't that make more sense?

Which is more powerful, VJ++ 6or VC++ 6?
And why?

[Megatron]

Neither is more powerful than the other. J++ is used more internet oriented, whereas C++ is app-purpose oriented.

VB, VC++ and VJ++ are essentially 3 different languages. BASIC, C++ and Java. BASIC is probably the easiest to learn, and C++ and Java are next. Personally, I believe that C++ should be taught first, because when you first learn basic, you are doing All-Purpose/General programming. C++ is the same thing, execpt you're more advanced. If you were to switch to Java, then you'd need to steer away from the General programming and gear towards internet programming -- which will be harder because you only have an understanding of General programming thus far.

Think of it this way: You could make a calculator in VB, and you could make that EXACT same calculator on VC as well. you can do this in Java too, but the general and overall structure will not remain the same.

Another reason is that once you learn VC++, you will become familiar with the language, and you would have gained more experience in programming. This gives you 2 advantages in going into Java, because the language is almost the same, and you can apply your new programming concepts to Java (or any language for that matter)

-Regards.

[Jethro]

Research in Oz suggests that it is easier to learn C++, then Basic etc, than to learn Basic then C++. Depends really on what they are trying to achieve in the program

At Uni we did

C -> Pascal -> COBOL -> Basic.

With the Basic being used as a qucik learning curve to database languages, which generally have a basic dialect of some sort, normally extended basic.

[csammis]

I agree with Megatron in that none of those languages is "better" than any other. I don't feel that in a school that teaches VC++ and VJ++ that VB should be taught at all. The point of the previous two languages is not only more control, but object-oriented design views. VB6 has objects, but it isn't really the same thing. VB.NET will be closer to Java in its use of objects, and I certainly believe that all of VS.NET should be taught when it comes out!

As for my own experiences...
I learned Java on my own, back when it was in version 1.1. I then took a course in C++ in my 12th grade year, but since I already had a handle on Java (which I think is a bit easier to learn), C++ was no problem at all. In fact, I was cruising through it so well that I taught myself VB while the class was going on Now I'm at Iowa State University. The Computer Science major teaches C/C++ in the first year since it can be used anywhere from kernel hacking Unix varients (CompSci 321, yay!) to file structures (CompSci 361, boo!). Within the next two years, however, they're migrating to Java to replace their major C++ courses (don't know why, probably because of the ease-of-learning I mentioned earlier). They do have two courses that touch on VB...CompSci 104, which teaches MS Office, and CompSci 207, which I got to skip by taking a test so I don't know what it entails.

To sum up my longwindedness:
I do think all of the languages should be taught, but as for order, that really depends on where you want to go. If you want to teach C++ or Java, I say hold off on the VB. But if you just want to teach programming basics and have an option to work up from there, I say do VB before the others. I love VB, but you've gotta admit, the design and coding is nothing compared to VC++ and the satan-spawned MFC

[invitro]

Thanks guys, replies and votes are highly appriciated.. 5 is better then 0

Thanks

[Mark Sreeves]

If they are teaching Visual Basic then they should of course teach "Visual Basic"

However, if they are teaching "Computer Programming" they ought to start with a non-proprietary language such as C++ or Java

Starting with VB would encourage poor programming because the language is so sloppy

Once you know a "proper" language learning VB is easy. Starting with VB and then moving on to a strongly typed language would be more difficult than learning a stongly typed language in the first place.


At university I started with Modula2 -> C -> C++ -> TCL/TK
(and a few others thrown in for good measure)
and then taught myself VB for my final year project.

[Megatron]

I think it's a better idea to teach BASIC first. It will teach you the concepts and logic of programming. This will make it much easier to learn C or Pascal afterwards.

[seoptimizer2001]

I think it should be VB, VC++ then VJ++. I had VB first and I think it made it easier to learn C++ because the logic is there. I also kind of found C++ to be a little on the boring side because of the console apps. So learning VB was more fun, thus not turning someone off to proggramming based on their first experience. VB is also easier than the other two, too much structure to try and understand with VC++ for a beginner.

[Serge]

VJ++ will be gone in the future. Java is a lot easier then C++, no pointers, only single instancing of objects.

In my opinion: C/C++ is first then everything else.

Just my $0.02

[Jethro]

Originally posted by Serge
VJ++ will be gone in the future. Java is a lot easier then C++, no pointers, only single instancing of objects.

In my opinion: C/C++ is first then everything else.

Just my $0.02

Hi Serge, no long time between posts?

Totally agree. The worst programmers we have ever employed are guys who started with VB. For some reason it attracts real lamers who want to get get into cutting code.

C/C++ first, teaches good style. Mind you then VB can get frustrating.

Still like Pascal, though outside of Delphi it seems to have gone the way of COBOL.

[chrisjk]

Serge!? You're back. Nice to see you (r text)!!

I'm ganna be a real lamer then coz I started with VB, then learned Pascal and Prologue at skool,then SQL, and finally a bit o' Perl (enough to make some cool cgi scripts anywho). Next stop, C++ (if I can be bothered).

[Megatron]

I started with BASIC, and I don't consider myself a "lamer."

[Jethro]

Originally posted by Megatron
I started with BASIC, and I don't consider myself a "lamer."

Sorry Meg that was a joke

At UNiversity we had two possible majors in computing. Computer Science and Information Systems. Naturally l took boith of them.

Computer Science

C->Pascal->Basic

Information Systems

Basic->COBOL

The computer science guys considered the IS guys lamers cause Basic was a lame language....pre-Visual Basic days.

The IS guys considered the computer science guys lamers, cause C took to long to code up an application.

Chris

C++ isn't all it's crackec up to be. Used to be real good, when you had to create your own printer drivers etc. Now even Unix sites don't really use it all that much.

[chrisjk]

I'm led to believe (possibly by a bunch of lying fairies) that C (or ++) is similar to Perl, which I know some of. Is that the case?

[Jethro]

Originally posted by chrisjk
I'm led to believe (possibly by a bunch of lying fairies) that C (or ++) is similar to Perl, which I know some of. Is that the case?

Er fairies, what sort of programming circles do you hang out in *****.

No idea on the question by the way, having never done any Pearl.

[chrisjk]

The one's that come and visit me whren I'm asleep, of course!!

And it's "Perl", not "Pearl". They make a deliberate point about that as it stands for Programming Extraction and Reporting Language. And don't forget it!

[Jethro]

Originally posted by chrisjk
The one's that come and visit me whren I'm asleep, of course!!

And it's "Perl", not "Pearl". They make a deliberate point about that as it stands for Programming Extraction and Reporting Language. And don't forget it!

Oops sorry.

.Perl is for fags

[hellswraith]

The major difference I found between C++ and Java is that Java FORCES you to do object oriented programming. Yes C++ has an OO side of it, but to much of the old C language was left in it which tends to lead to the same type of programming practices with it. If I had my way, I would teach Java first, then go to C++. As far as where VB comes into it... I think it should come first. It is easy to understand and grasp. Once you have loops, decisions, arrays, and functions down, you can pretty much go to any other language and cross that knowledge over pretty quickly. VB is real easy to learn these fundementals.

[chrisjk]

Originally posted by Jethro
Perl is for fags

Wash your mouth out with soap you biyyyatch. Where would the net be today without Perl and it's wicked CGI capabilities??

[Jethro]

Originally posted by chrisjk
Wash your mouth out with soap you biyyyatch. Where would the net be today without Perl and it's wicked CGI capabilities??

Using a decent language like PHP. Only sick panty waist fairies use Perl. (LA waiting Dude, and yes you have to click on the e symbol to get on the web. And why are you surfing on a Saturday and not chasing chicks).

[Zevlag]

Well Just wanted to add, I learned basic, qbasic, javascript, VB, now VC++, wish I would have done C befor VB though.

[invitro]

I started programming in qb, vb then vc++
VC is my fav. for now, J++ pretty cool 2. I've been programming for a little while in C++ now, and when I go back to VB its like kindergarden all over again

Don't get me wrong, i still like it and use it ALOT but in my opp. and after hearing the oppinions of others, I think Basic does develope bad programming style ...in SOME cases. I think for some people it helps them develope their programming logic easier. I have people in my class who don't have a clue in programming, that started C++ first and aren't grasping the concept of a loop. Sad, but true. But that probably means the programmer himself is "lame" not the language hehe

When I first started programming in C++ right after VB everything was all over the place, but I guess thats because I taught VB to myself, so the style was bad. But it was easy enough to figure out the syntax and how everything works, thanks to all the pop up menus.

[Stewarty]

Hmmm... VB is not a language for teaching, well at the beginning anyway. Id go with QBASIC, or some other procedural version of BASIC, then C++ then onto the Visual Studio scene.

[chrisjk]

I should think the best way to do it is how university courses are run. After all, they have had the benefit of doing it many many times and they would think carefully about which to do and when. Mine goes a little like this:

Pascal
Prologue
VBA
HTML+Java
VB
C++
COBOL

[invitro]

Theres not enough grades in high school to do all those

[chrisjk]

You don't spend a year on each one!! A couple a year maybe

[LiquidRezin]

Well when I was in college the first language taught was C++, Java wasnt that hot on our campus yet, but by my junior year, all language classes that were taught in C++ converted to Java...I'm glad that I learned C++ first because it helped me with a lot of programming styles and methods. My first job right after graduation required VB. I straight up told my interviewer that I didn't know VB at all and the language I was most comfortable with was C++. He gave me a chance and I learned VB in about a week, really simple coming from C++.