Peace prize

[NeedSomeAnswers]

It was illegal, yet the Europeans still did it.

Err No actually i think you will find that it was the US that started the Bombing.

With economic support from Russia, the Serbs could have rolled over any mainland European country. None have a meaningful standing army with any recent military experience.

Hmmm, Russia were never going support the Serbians in war against any other European country. The Russians really have no interest in going to war with there neighbours who they do most of there business with, And i think you will find that the UK army had plenty of Experience if you care to look it up.

You didn't go to war because without NATO, Russia would have no reason to not cut off your gas supplies

Russia might be supplying more and more Gas to Europe now but i think you will find that at the time of the war in the UK we were still mainly reliant upon our own North Sea oil and Gas supplies. Yes the are now running out but that is well after the conflict.

all the while selling nukes to Serbia

At no point has Russia sold any nuclear weapons to Serbia nor were they ever likely to unless they wanted to start World War 3.

It irks me that liberal Europeans do not realize their very existence and freedoms are only afforded by the actions of a Western superpower willing to fight for the Western world.

It Irks me that so many Americans actually believe that bull.

European history is full of war and bloodshed that culminated in the two biggest, bloodiest wars in human history inside of three decades. After the second time the US decided Europe could not be trusted to behave themselves so we left a few divisions behind in western Europe to ensure they would play nice together while the Soviets did the same to eastern Europe with the added bonus of instituting communist oppression. Western Europe was quite happy to be relieved of the burden of maintaining standing armies, navies, defense perimeters, etc, but was not happy about the ensuing cold war as peace and stability became the two most important things in the European mind. The cold war standoff was the single biggest threat to peace in Europe. Western Europe could not control what the Soviets did, so they tried their best to influence America...

God that's as strange a bastardisation of European History as i have heard.

I suspect the 1 singular difference between Europe and the US is the US has never been involved in a Conflict in the own country. Have your country blown to sh*t a few times an then see if that does not concentrate the minds of people not to want it to happen again.

I think you would see a distinct change in attitude of peoples support for War if you had experienced a couple on your own doorstep.

Fast-forward to 2004. Europe saw the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan as yet another threat to their own peace and stability. They desperately want a say in US policy to prevent such threats and they get rather agitated when we don't listen. They don't realize (or want to acknowledge) the fact that they have been lecturing us for 200+ years on how we're "doing it all wrong" and like you would do with a nagging wife who won't shut up we Americans have learned to simply tune out whenever the lectures begin yet again.

No you don't get it at all do you, you really don't understand Europeans if you think that, and to talk of us as 1 entity is just strange Europe consists of nearly 50 countries do you really think that they are all the same ??

[homer13j]

It Irks me that so many Americans actually believe that bull.

What exactly is "bull" about it?

God that's as strange a bastardisation of European History as i have heard.

It is wrong? Is it inaccurate? What is your problem with it?

No you don't get it at all do you, you really don't understand Europeans if you think that, and to talk of us as 1 entity is just strange Europe consists of nearly 50 countries do you really think that they are all the same ??

I was referring to western Europe, pretty much all countries of which have placed peace and stability above all else and will do almost anything to insure it.

And I'm not knocking Europe or Europeans - I'm merely trying to say that Europe has become vehemently anti-war precisely because of their violent, bloody history. Was I not clear about this? Or if you believe I am wrong, tell me why.

[FunkyDexter]

Yes thats true but they were basically civil wars, and not in the era of modern warfare

Agreed...

Ah Yes you are right technically, although as they were talking about Europe as one entity so was i.

Agreed...

disclosure i am also a pedant

And Agreed but it is fun isn't it?

I was really just highlighting that the difference in attitude probably hasn't come from a difference in the number of wars fought in home territory or otherwise over the last century or two. In fact, the relative positions switched last century. America used to avoid wars like the plague and Europe used to get into a barney at the drop of a hat.

I think Europe probably did develop a love of peace post WW2 and during the cold war but, to be honest, so did America. Both threw themselves into the founding of the UN etc because we all wanted to avoid world conflicts.

Thinking about it, America's warlike attitude is really a product of the last 3 decades. And that's only if you include the Serbian and Bosnian conflict which did actually have quite a lot of support in Europe. I think you can pretty much write that one off as an abberation. To me, the warlike attitude we're seeing from the US lately is a product almost solely of 9/11. I think it's starting to dwindle pretty fast too, which is a good thing. I see far fewer Americans rattling their sabres now than I did 5 years ago.

It is wrong?

Yes

Is it inaccurate?

Yes

What is your problem with it?

That it's wrong and innacurate.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I suspect the 1 singular difference between Europe and the US is the US has never been involved in a Conflict in the own country. Have your country blown to sh*t a few times an then see if that does not concentrate the minds of people not to want it to happen again.

Actually, that's not at all true. Our Civil War, though it was over 150 years back, still influences us today. The divisions and scars have not disappeared, and keep bubbling back up. What we seem to lack is both an understanding of how much the causes of the Civil War are currently affecting us, and the empathy to recognize that the same will happen in other countries for conflicts that large and divisive.

Interestingly, in the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, documents are coming out showing that the US, along with many western European countries, had deep misgivings about the re-unification of Germany, and the pace of change. Bush (the elder) tried to get together with the remains of the USSR to slow down the re-unification. Therefore, it wasn't just Western Europe that went into conniptions over Reagan's rhetoric. Effectively, even Reagan did. He spoke as he did because he didn't expect his rhetoric to come true. When it did, the US feared the result as much as any other European country, and more than some of them.

[nemaroller]

Err No actually i think you will find that it was the US that started the Bombing.

Yes, and the French and the British RAF just stumbled into Yugloslavic airspace, and accidentally ran over 2,000 sorties exploding thousands of munitions.

Hmmm, Russia were never going support the Serbians in war against any other European country. The Russians really have no interest in going to war with there neighbours who they do most of there business with, And i think you will find that the UK army had plenty of Experience if you care to look it up.

Russia wouldn't war against Europe... they could just jerk Europe around like they do now. You can't put up an effective defense if you can't even secure your own energy. As far as my original comment about an army with experience, I think you'll find I stated 'mainland' European country - if you care to look it up.

Russia might be supplying more and more Gas to Europe now but i think you will find that at the time of the war in the UK we were still mainly reliant upon our own North Sea oil and Gas supplies. We are now running out but that is well after the conflict.

Which is why the UK was free to think independently - without fear of economic repercussion the rest of Europe faced.

At no point has Russia sold any nuclear weapons to Serbia nor were they ever likely to unless they wanted to start World War 3.

You realize that was a hypothetical comment. Go ahead and re-read it.
I will just allude that recent German and Italian interest in securing more advanced missile defense systems from the US is not coincidental.

[NeedSomeAnswers]

Russia wouldn't war against Europe... they could just jerk Europe around like they do now. You can't put up an effective defense if you can't even secure your own energy.

Yes i agree Russia wont war against Europe. Nice to have something we agree on hey

Russia does look after its own political interests agreed but to say that it is jerking Europe around in misleading. For Russia a strong Europe is actually in there interest as it directly affects there own economic development.

As for Energy security, well don't we all have issues ? The USA Imports 60% of its Oil is your Energy Secure ?

The recent issues with energy security are all to do with Russia's dispute with the Ukraine, however the nabucco pipeline being built to bring in competition from the middle east will fix a lot of these issues.

In fact the US has been involved in the Nabucco project as i am sure it would open up a new gas route for you too.

Which is why the UK was free to think independently - without fear of economic repercussion the rest of Europe faced.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that, Russia cant just blackmail major European countries by threatening to cut of there Gas, Energy has not been used (so far at least) as a political tool for Russia against Western Europe it would be disastrous for them Economically, most of there money comes from Gas !

You realize that was a hypothetical comment. Go ahead and re-read it.

Maybe i am missing something but ..

You didn't go to war because without NATO, Russia would have no reason to not cut off your gas supplies, or hike them 1000%, hold a gun to your head, all the while selling nukes to Serbia. Wait, Putin is doing that as we speak

i don't see anything hypothetical about it, you state quite clearly Putin is doing this as we speak !