Life on other planets? Computers on other planets?

[Spoo]

Let's say we started to interact with an ET civilization that was considerably more advanced than us. Microsoft and Apple would want to hire ET programmers to advance their software or perhaps they would want to start marketing alien hardware and software.

The only downside with said interaction is that it would be rather slow..
if the ET's were only 1 light-year away, it would take 2 years from the
time Microsoft sent a message to the time they'd get a reply.

Oh wait, that's kinda like customer service right here on our little rock.

[Lord Orwell]

The only downside with said interaction is that it would be rather slow..
if the ET's were only 1 light-year away, it would take 2 years from the
time Microsoft sent a message to the time they'd get a reply.

Oh wait, that's kinda like customer service right here on our little rock.

only for the first transmission. If they sent us a quantum-entangled electron in the return signal and we managed to capture it, it could be used for instantaneous communications from then on, no matter what the distance. Quantum entanglement is not limited to light speed.

[CoBHC]

I'd offer that the presence of people able to spell 'intelligent' is a
good indicator that intelligent life exists on our humble rock.

As for computers on other planets, well, if the inhabitants thereof
are silicon-based as opposed to carbon-based, would they consider
themselves to be computers?

Does that make Michael Jackson a computer?

[mendhak]

only for the first transmission. If they sent us a quantum-entangled electron in the return signal and we managed to capture it, it could be used for instantaneous communications from then on, no matter what the distance. Quantum entanglement is not limited to light speed.

You can't, according to the no communication theorem. I personally think that this theorem should have been given a better name.

[Lord Orwell]

You can't, according to the no communication theorem. I personally think that this theorem should have been given a better name.

read the comments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_teleportation
This particular theorem has already been proven.

[mendhak]

Read the article...

It does not transport energy or matter, nor does it allow communication of information at superluminal (faster than light) speed.

You're probably thinking superposition.

[Lord Orwell]

The no-communication theorem thus says shared entanglement alone can not be used to transmit quantum information. Compare this with the no teleportation theorem, which states a classical information channel can not transmit quantum information. (By "transmit" we mean transmission with full fidelity.) However, quantum teleportation schemes utilize both resources to achieve what is impossible for either alone(emphasis added by me)

This is what i'm referring to. Bell labs and IBM have both done extensive research into this area.

[mendhak]

I read that. So you are thinking superposition for message transmission. I suppose that could be done if they first tell us what each qubit corresponds to and where they're going to do it. Or maybe they should just teleport a quantum communication manual to us.

[EntityX]

If the aliens visited us in a spacecraft then the problems of communicating across light years wouldn't exist. I do believe there is a way to communicate across light years instantly though.

[Lord Orwell]

If the aliens visited us in a spacecraft then the problems of communicating across light years wouldn't exist. I do believe there is a way to communicate across light years instantly though.

what makes you think spacecraft are feasable? We aren't capable of sending a manned ship to other planets in our own system, but we can send signals to other stars. Which is an alien more likely to do?

[Spoo]

Which is an alien more likely to do?

Oh, that's an easy one... visit us in a spacecraft.

[Spoo]

This is what i'm referring to. Bell labs and IBM have both done extensive research into this area.

Sure would be nice if they'd share their results with the network and
cable news channels.. ever notice the delay when Brian Williams, in NY,
is talking to a correspondent in the Middle East?

[capsulecorpjx]

I saw this article on the discovery of a new exoplanet.

Scientists discover a nearly Earth-sized planet

I'm very confident that there's other intelligent life in our universe.
Some of it is no doubt much more advanced technologically than the life on this planet. If there is an exchange of intelligences between earth dwellers and ETs it will be interesting to see how our own technology is influenced.

Intelligent life? not in this galaxy, maybe not in a billion galaxies (out of around 400 billion in the universe).

The odds of bacteria taking on mitochondria to produce Eukaryotic cells is low enough. It took 1 billion years just to do that.

I'm sure bacteria might be common, but not much above that, and even less life that can communicate with language.

[timeshifter]

Think about it, though. We're on one planet, that we think we've aged pretty accurately. Are we the only planet in existence of that age? No. How can you (presumably) sit there and say the chances of life developing are too low to happen anywhere else? Basic probability - given an even remotely equal spread of matter over the universe, isn't the probability of life developing on one planet almost completely independent of any other planet? It developed here; why not elsewhere?

[EntityX]

In post # 25 of this thread I posted a scan of a very large footnote from a book. The argument that Isaac Asimov gives is similar to what timeshifter is saying.

[capsulecorpjx]

Think about it, though. We're on one planet, that we think we've aged pretty accurately. Are we the only planet in existence of that age? No. How can you (presumably) sit there and say the chances of life developing are too low to happen anywhere else? Basic probability - given an even remotely equal spread of matter over the universe, isn't the probability of life developing on one planet almost completely independent of any other planet? It developed here; why not elsewhere?

There might be another intelligent species out there, but I bet it's one in a billion Galaxies.

Around 400 billion stars per Galaxy, 400 billion Galaxies, it'll be hard to find that other planet.

[timeshifter]

What are you basing that notion on? We know for sure of the existence of (semi) intelligent life on 1 planet out of 9 in our solar system. If it's only that one planet, we don't know. So we've been on Mars and taken pictures of the other planets... how many species are there on our own planet that live miles underground and survive with no oxygen and no light? We've found a couple, and there may be many more than that. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. And again, we can present only a lousy probability because we don't really know anything about any of the other planets. We know that at the bare minimum, one planet in our solar system contains life. What if we find life on Titan? Suddenly we have the evolution of life on two different planets within one solar system, one of which we consider intelligent. How many solar systems in our galaxy, how many galaxies in the universe? And you're going to say that even given the 11% minimum chance that Earth had in our solar system, there's a one in a billion chance of any galaxy having intelligent life? We don't even know if we really are the most intelligent species on this planet. Whales and dolphins seem pretty smart. Who knows what else is hiding here?

The point is, nobody on this planet is in absolutely any position to say how many (or few) planets have evolved intelligent life. We know damn near nothing about anything regarding the universe.

[capsulecorpjx]

What are you basing that notion on? We know for sure of the existence of (semi) intelligent life on 1 planet out of 9 in our solar system. If it's only that one planet, we don't know. So we've been on Mars and taken pictures of the other planets... how many species are there on our own planet that live miles underground and survive with no oxygen and no light? We've found a couple, and there may be many more than that. Just because we can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. And again, we can present only a lousy probability because we don't really know anything about any of the other planets. We know that at the bare minimum, one planet in our solar system contains life. What if we find life on Titan? Suddenly we have the evolution of life on two different planets within one solar system, one of which we consider intelligent. How many solar systems in our galaxy, how many galaxies in the universe? And you're going to say that even given the 11% minimum chance that Earth had in our solar system, there's a one in a billion chance of any galaxy having intelligent life? We don't even know if we really are the most intelligent species on this planet. Whales and dolphins seem pretty smart. Who knows what else is hiding here?

The point is, nobody on this planet is in absolutely any position to say how many (or few) planets have evolved intelligent life. We know damn near nothing about anything regarding the universe.

I don't think your implication that a given solar system with planets have around an 11% chance of having life is correct (due to Earth being 1/9 or 8 planets).

That's like me saying, that because I exist in my family of four, that means in any given family, there is a 25% chance of someone that looks like me, works as a software developer and went to UNC.

Here is why I think it's so rare for intelligent life:
1) It took 1 billion years to evolve the Eukaryotes, one requirement of which is the symbiotic absorbtion of the Mitochondria bacterium (no mitochondria, cells can't power efficiently enough to create multicellular).

2) Even on Earth, the only Family in the tree of life who has created organisms capable of real language, advanced tools and clothing (to adapt to climates) are Primates. This includes the Neanderthals and Humans.

There is no evidence of any previous civilization, nor of any other branches of Animals that come close to a true organized language.

3) Humans themselves almost died out at one point, seen by the ridiculously narrow genetic bottle neck just 10 or 15 thousand years ago.

So you throw all these things together. The chances of alien civilizations capable of Space Travel seems really really really dim.

One in a billion Galaxies might be generous, it could be as few as one in a thousand Universes.

[EntityX]

In answer to capsulecorpjx
Life is very adaptable. It adjusts and finds a way to survive and evolve. We as humans are also very adatable. It seems to me you don't think that life can adjust to different environments very well and evolve in other environments than just our planet. I believe that life is more adaptable than most people think and that things are possible for each of us that most people don't think are possible. Life is possible in all kinds of different environments. It isn't as fragile and delicate as some people think it is in my opinion.

[MaximilianMayrhofer]

I love the arrogance of people who need to feel special about being nothing more than slightly more organised monkeys.

[Lord Orwell]

I don't think your implication that a given solar system with planets have around an 11% chance of having life is correct (due to Earth being 1/9 or 8 planets).

That's like me saying, that because I exist in my family of four, that means in any given family, there is a 25% chance of someone that looks like me, works as a software developer and went to UNC.

Here is why I think it's so rare for intelligent life:
1) It took 1 billion years to evolve the Eukaryotes, one requirement of which is the symbiotic absorbtion of the Mitochondria bacterium (no mitochondria, cells can't power efficiently enough to create multicellular).

2) Even on Earth, the only Family in the tree of life who has created organisms capable of real language, advanced tools and clothing (to adapt to climates) are Primates. This includes the Neanderthals and Humans.

There is no evidence of any previous civilization, nor of any other branches of Animals that come close to a true organized language.

3) Humans themselves almost died out at one point, seen by the ridiculously narrow genetic bottle neck just 10 or 15 thousand years ago.

So you throw all these things together. The chances of alien civilizations capable of Space Travel seems really really really dim.

One in a billion Galaxies might be generous, it could be as few as one in a thousand Universes.

You're missing a couple of things here. One: What part of our civilization is going to exist 65 million years from now? as far as we really know, velociraptors had cars. Also your "required for energy" may or may not be correct, but i am aware of bacteria that exist just on earth that get energy from three different sources. One uses photosynthesis. One gets thermal energy from heat vents on the ocean floor, and one gets it from eating other organics.

Also "it took a million years to evolve"...
it took a million years, on one single planet of millions, which also have each also had those same millions of years. How do those odds fall? Even if you look at straight probabability, you can't predict it. The odds could have been as good as fifty-fifty each single year earth developed life and it just never hit that side of the coin toss.

[timeshifter]

In all truth, we aren't very adaptable at all. The most we differ is the length of our noses, depending on the temperature of the air. Aside from that, we manipulate the environment to suit us. Every other creature either adapts or moves. We change the rules. More like a virus than anything else...

[Lord Orwell]

In all truth, we aren't very adaptable at all. The most we differ is the length of our noses, depending on the temperature of the air. Aside from that, we manipulate the environment to suit us. Every other creature either adapts or moves. We change the rules. More like a virus than anything else...

agent Smith, is that you?

as far as adaptability, most mass extinctions in the past have happened not because of one change in the environment, but two. And we've lived through at least one mass extinction. Creatures are pretty well going to survive one climate change. It's when it is followed by a second change that they die off. scientists have theorized that genes have a certain amount of flexibility and the first change used up most of the flexibility available in a quick adaptation. This article elocutes better than i do:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29240524/

Just look at the evidence of your own body if you think you don't adapt. The very fact we stand up right is an adaptation to plains life. Then there's skin pigment which varies according to the latitude you live at due to different intensities in sun rays. We're even capable of adapting to aquatic life. Some people are already born with webbed hands and feet, your eyes have a vestigal 3rd eyelid that currently isn't used, and we have the same reflex in our physiology dolphins do that slows down our heart rate, etc when under water for extended periods. This is how divers can hold their breath for up to five minutes. Some scientists have even suggested the reason these things exist is that at one time in the past, we actually did live in water. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A730531

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/top...ating_membrane
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1182842
http://www.eatonhand.com/hw/hw019.htm

[BillGeek]

I love the arrogance of people who need to feel special about being nothing more than slightly more organised monkeys

I'm not just slightly organized. I know exactly where everything is.