Does your management treat you well?

[MMock]

I just read some of Harsh Gupta's trials and tribulations interviewing and Tom Sawyer's response and instead of stealing that thread I thought I'd start my own.

I left my last job when the CEO of the company lost his temper, screamed at me in front of the entire office and sent me home for the rest of the day without pay. (I didn't know the password to the pc next to my desk that a consultant used evenings). I am not the first he has lost his temper with. He and his wife own and run the company and I could not believe the number of times he screamed at her and how she could possibly have any dignity left to still come to work and face the rest of the employees.

I got a new job with better pay so good things can come from bad things. I had a good interview. Then I realized my current boss was only a little bit better. He is harder on me than on the other employees and when something goes wrong it is only and all my fault. He accused me once of contradicting myself. It was because I mispoke the wrong name of a person, e.g. said John's program when I meant Jane's program or whatever. I thought I had said Jane, but regardless that's an honest mistake not a contradiction. And stuff like that. I prefer emails so I can think clearly and be articulate (unlike any other employee I've read emails from!) and he makes me speak to him instead. If he would just accept my emails, there's be no contradictions! I wanted to get *another* new job but I don't want a reputation of always leaving just because I get reprimanded once in a while.

What have been your experiences and when do you know it's so bad that you have to leave? I should say my new job is offering me great experience and I love the work. And my boss is in a remote office (which is why I have to call him everyday with a status).

[Jenner]

My first job out of collage, I had a boss who was a total and complete moron. This guy was the epitome of the pointy-haired boss from Dilbert. He treated me well, it's just he asked me to do some of the most moronic engineering. Still, we were never on bad terms. He was perhaps too much a "nice guy" boss to be really effective. He always bent-over-backwards for anyone who challenged him so our department got walked over constantly and numerous virtual take-overs by other department managers resulted. Eventually, our whole department got downsized into non-existence and everyone got re-assigned. I quit at that point since I didn't want to relocate to a different state.

My second big job was pure hell. It was a revolving door of talent. They hired 5 engineers every week and laid off 5. Once your specific talents were deemed used up, out you went like a used condom. Being a company always looking for employee-du-jour, I interviewed with them and was damned near insulted by my interviewer. Three weeks later, a placement agency called to place me at this job. They assured me they were only looking for a short term, high pay contract dealing with my specialty from my previous job and it would only be 3 to 4 weeks at most. I didn't care. I needed money. I took it.

I was there for 9 months treated like a ghost in a sea of cubicles. The plus side, I had good pay, the bad side, the conditions were miserable and management treated the contract employees like filth; always dangling the carrot of "if you do good, we'll hire you permanently". They never did. When they dumped me on a Tuesday (after my direct boss there just gave me two new assignments that morning) I actually felt more relief than anything.

My current job I love. My boss is very cool and friendly, even though we share few common interests we get along extremely well. My current job is also with a tiny company of about 14 office employees and maybe 10 shop employees as opposed to the huge megacorp I worked for in the first job (major automaker), and the midsize hell of my second job (45 office, 100 shop). My boss treats me with respect that I admit sometimes I don't deserve but I find myself wanting to put in the extra mile with my work. At this point, I've got a bit of seniority so it makes the position that much sweeter.

I got extremely lucky with this one. My recommendation, your new job doesn't sound all that bad. It may be too early to receive the respect that transforms you from "the new guy" to "part of the family". Write your email status to organize your thoughts and when you call with your daily status (that's micromanagement right there though, so red-flag ) just read off from your screen.

If you start getting sick about it, bring it up with your boss. Tell him you don't see the need to waste XX minutes a day with a daily phone call when a project spreadsheet that can be updated and emailed in seconds would be more efficient and provide a paper trail for when problems arise. After a bit of time, say a year or two. If you're just getting sick of your manager or he isn't changing his ways, start looking.

[Shaggy Hiker]

That would be a tough situation to be in. Heck, all those stories would. Most everybody I have worked for has been really good. The one exception was a guy who had a terrible self-worth problem. I'd have to say that it was more surprising than humorous to give him compliments just to watch him cringe. I'd try it every now and then just cause his reaction was so extreme. It was as if I was about to hit him. Kind of made me feel bad, though. We had some wild disagreements, though, which I've never had before. He threatened my career a few times, which just showed how pissed he actually was, since it wasn't really up to him. We parted on reasonable terms, though.

I suspect that who you are and how you look has a huge amount to do with how you get treated. I'm in the least-picked-on demographic, which probably has something to do with it, but the people I have worked for have been really decent to everybody, so maybe that's not the case.

[techgnome]

both of those posts show exactly why I'll never make it at Global-Dyna-Comp-Mega-Corp. I've had exactly two programmer jobs.... first was the Air Force (4 years), and my current one (going on 11years now). I hear horror stories about life in other companies.... we've had a few around here (like a upper management type that was standing in our way of moving our flagship app forward). But it's all managed to work itself out. Working here can be brutal at times, and we've had some people quit, and others shown the door (a couple were even intercepted AT the door and handed a box).

We did have few malcontents at one point, and after they left, my manager (who hates to be called that) started setting up one-on-one meeting each week with everyone, as a way to see how things are going, if there's any concerns or problems or anything that needs to be discussed. Half the time we jsut end up shooting the breeze for a half-hour. it's cool, I've let out a few things in there that bother me. Sometimes something can be done about it... other times, not so much.

-tg

[MMock]

my manager (who hates to be called that) started setting up one-on-one meeting each week with everyone, as a way to see how things are going, -tg

I had a boss like that! Then our company merged with another and things go so bad the entire engineering department interviewed and left! He went to CA; I'm still in CT. I think about him occasionally. It'd be nice to work for someone like that again.

[mendhak]

I have the ace that trumps all of your stories. I've worked in Japan; it is quite possibly the worst place to work in on the planet. If you think that you know of a worse place or feel that you've experienced a worse place, then please note that you are wrong. You (plural) are talking of bad experiences, I am talking of a way of life. I am confident of my assessment because I have worked in several different countries and compared the work cultures. I could write an essay on it but the underlying theme is always the same in a corporate Japanese work environment: You, employee, are not a human, you are merely a slave and must do exactly as you are told and above all do not attempt to think.

I'd never go into specific examples in a public forum like this and I don't think you guys should either. Don't burn your bridges and don't make the bridges look bad. Anyone from anywhere could see your posts here and you never know when you need them, especially for referrals when applying for a new job.

[MMock]

I'd never go into specific examples in a public forum like this and I don't think you guys should either. Don't burn your bridges and don't make the bridges look bad. Anyone from anywhere could see your posts here...

mendhak is absolutely right! I did think about the possibility of someone I work for, knowing my handle, and searching the forum for my posts and then getting an earful (eyeful!). I hope I didn't say too much or prompt anybody else to. The last thing I want is to get anybody in trouble, just wanted to commiserate a bit!

Thanks.

[Tom Sawyer]

mendhak is absolutely right! I did think about the possibility of someone I work for, knowing my handle, and searching the forum for my posts and then getting an earful (eyeful!). I hope I didn't say too much or prompt anybody else to. The last thing I want is to get anybody in trouble, just wanted to commiserate a bit!

Thanks.

MMock, just so you know, I am your boss. Please come into my office immediately - we need to have a little chat.

[RhinoBull]

I'd never go into specific examples in a public forum like this and I don't think you guys should either. Don't burn your bridges and don't make the bridges look bad. Anyone from anywhere could see your posts here and you never know when you need them, especially for referrals when applying for a new job.

So, let them read and know who they really are. I wouldn't care much about it.
"Burning bridges" is one but letting them know that you are tired of misconduct is entirely different thing and I wouldn't hesitate to tell them right in their faces.
Most people are commited to businesses they work for so they [employers] must be nice - that's the bottom line.

MMock,
you did the right thing by living that job and speaking out loud (last helps to flash out your emotions).


Best of luck to you.

[schaefer]

I've only worked for 2 moron bosses in my history of lets see 1,2,3,..5,6,..,10,11,12 different jobs that I've had in the past 10 years. This is why I stick to contracting. When I worked as an employee at my 1st and 3rd job I was treated like an employee. I was expected to work weekends and blamed for things that were not my fault. This was especially hard because I was working for people who knew less than I do about computers and I knew they were wrong but was not sure how to tell them that. When a company hires a consultant they do not treat them like an employee. They expect more out of a consultant and they automatically assume that consultants are incredibly smart and better than all of their employees. So working as a consultant I get the respect that I feel I deserve. At the same time I get to work among employees who get paid next to nothing and have to work extra hours and do all kinds of nasty grunt work that I don't have to do.
If you are unhappy as an employee my recommendation is to just start doing contract work. There is less job security but more job satisfaction and if you think about how much job security do you really have as an employee anyway?

[Harsh Gupta]

I actually agree with Mendhak.

Since MMock cited my thread, let me clarify on this. My purpose for creating this thread was not to bring disrepute to any company or my current/previous employer or even my prospective employer. It was meant only for me.

How should I handle a situation like this?
Does turning down an offer wrong for me?
Is it me doing something wrong till now?

You see, I and me everywhere. Even I feel I did something wrong by creating this thread, but if I have kept quiet right now, I'd be nowhere and confused as usual. All I am trying to learn is, this little managerial behavior.

As far as mocking your company or your boss is concerned, I believe this is something to be avoided. Speaking out softly or loudly is good, but only those should do it who have something to shout about. These 2 thread showed me that corporate in any country behaves more or less similar. Then why shout at all!!

The last few interviews I have given, 2 of them in reality said they can't hire me because I am over-qualified for them. Will anyone consider it a good comment from a company's representative? I believe No.

If I speak for myself, in my college, I was one of the 2-3 pupil who could program in C++. Ask anyone to write a... say recursive factorial program, they would be so afraid as if someone had pressed their panic button.

And I am the only one who suffered the most. No job for 1 to 2 years, got a job and left it in 7 months, still fighting for a good job. What does it imply? Is there something wrong in me? Maybe. May be not.

So I firmly believe that only people with no brains are working here. Does it matter if I believes so? In the end it is them working that matters.

Different person / company have different views, and as Darwin said 'Natural Selection' or by Spencer - 'Survival of the Fittest', either we have to adjust or abandon the environment. Do what suits you the best. Mocking will not serve any good for anyone.

Amen.

[riteshjain1982]

If I speak for myself, in my college, I was one of the 2-3 pupil who could program in C++. Ask anyone to write a... say recursive factorial program, they would be so afraid as if someone had pressed their panic button.

just remembered my college days

as far as topic is concern all fingers are not equal.........sometime in life, one have to really deal with jerks too.......out of this situation just try to learn all +ve and -ve aspect of the life and how to deal with it ....and move ahead............

PS:At some point of time all junior(Including me ) thinks their superiors are jerks

[MMock]

If you are unhappy as an employee my recommendation is to just start doing contract work. There is less job security but more job satisfaction and if you think about how much job security do you really have as an employee anyway?

I loved my consulting days!!! I was looking for consulting this time around, but the permanent job came up first. I loved the money, I loved that every hour you worked you got paid for it, I loved finishing a job in 6-12 months and starting another...it was great (then why did I leave the first time, you're wondering? I was pregnant and tired and couldn't put in that much time anymore. Then after not working for 7 years to raise my family, no consulting firm would hire me! I could go back now, but like I said this job came up, it's decent full-time pay, and it's hard for me to take on a long commute because my husband and I provide the transportation to and from school for our girls (with consulting you never know where you'll be)).

[MMock]

It was meant only for me.

How should I handle a situation like this?
Does turning down an offer wrong for me?
Is it me doing something wrong till now?

You did nothing wrong by creating your thread, nor did I, but we have to realize this is a discussion board and anything posted will be discussed (isn't that the point?)

Anyway, your thread made me realize how all my interviews have been cake and now I'm scared to leave and risk going through an interview like the ones you have had! So it was a learning experience, and thanks for posting.

[MMock]

MMock, just so you know, I am your boss. Please come into my office immediately - we need to have a little chat.

You can't be my boss...I don't think he likes Rush.

[techgnome]

You can't be my boss...I don't think he likes Rush.

Must be a generation gap.... I was thinking Samuel Clemens....

-tg

[MMock]

Must be a generation gap.... I was thinking Samuel Clemens....

-tg

Then you're either very much younger or very much older than I (probably both my children and my mother know Samuel Clemens, but not Rush).

It came up in previous threads with me where Tom Sawyer got his handle...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Must be a generation gap.... I was thinking Samuel Clemens....

-tg

Only if he's TWAIN compliant

[Harsh Gupta]

Well yes, discussion must be held. But it is up to the individual to select a topic with caution and ease. Different people have different opinions and different mindsets.

Few things should be discussed within the boundaries and those boundaries should be respected. Like Mendhak posted earlier:

Don't burn your bridges and don't make the bridges look bad.

Many have posted few articles here on VBF, and they may check out if it's true. Won't it create a bad impression? I mean just an example!

[Pino]

I've never had any specific issues with Management as a Developer. I've only worked for 2 companies and the direct management I had to deal with were some of the best people I could have hoped to meet.

However if that ever changed I don't think I'd hang around, but I cant speak because it never has.

However these days my manger is a real pain in the rear! (I work for myself now )

Just to add to Mendhaks point employers will find this forum very easily - Be careful what you put.

[MMock]

Since I am the one who started this thread, I should now say I like my boss...a lot. Maybe we just had to get used to each other. I feel like a whiner, for no reason. Maybe I just needed to get initiated. He works remote from us and comes into our office once a week most weeks, when he does it's with coffee and donuts...I feel so mean and unappreciative! I take it all back!!!

[Christopher_Arm]

Quite frankly. No. It has been of my opinion that my project manager has been incompetent for sometime now in not following the basics:
1) Giving clear instructions as to what is to be done by scheduling initial meeting with the client and user base.

2) Following this up by setting up protocols for unit and regression testing to insure that the work before it goes into production has been put through its paces thoroughly.

3) Mandating that technical documentation on existing projects are the norm and not the exception but when a co-worker is sick or if he is on vacation people walk in the office asking for things and we haven't a clue of what to do to salvage the situation.

My boss does a a lot of blame shifting, yelling (scolding workers at the cubicles loudly like children) and uses almost borderline harassing micromanaging tactics to get things done. He was a former programmer but if he was one then I can't objectively qualify his work but from the glimpses I 've when he steps over to write code and or put formulas in crystal that don't work I have to raise an eyebrow and wonder.

He wants things done quickly by way of quota to be done so they get off his project list and yet things are done rather haphazard and there is often a backlash effect.

Case in point he is mad because it has taken me two months with a given project. But the two months were spent investigating with the users over a hundred tables in a database to recreate views that were obliterated in a migration and conversion that he was responsible for and as result the users... their crystal reports ceased working. Without documentation or clear instructions as to how to proceed it was trial and error at first with only the referenced project ticket and constant correspondence with the users.

The first week and a half I got the proper stored procedure and then the records of my query had to match their own as this was financial level data. At times there were two records missing out of ten so then my boss yell your query is WRONG it should pull all of the data ! Not when the data is being stored under a different date than what the users indicated !! * Sigh*

Are project managers either former programmers who couldn't cut it remaining at programmers with their spaghetti code or people who have MBA 's without a whit of experience in technology.And if so are they nothing more that glorified babysitters with the herding cats philosophical approach to their programmer subordinates.

I have been in my profession for ten years in NYC, a good chunk of time and I have found this role of programmer whether I worked in finance/ accounting firms or nonprofits to be adversarial at best and thankless in terms of the victories at the least. In either case exhaustive in terms of the scenarios and people that you have to deal with to get the job done and yet lucrative in terms of the paycheck. I am personally shifting my role in the next few years into the business analyst role as opposed to programmer and my goal is to leave Manhattan Island behind.

[techgnome]

He was a former programmer but if he was one then I can't objectively qualify his work but from the glimpses I 've when he steps over to write code and or put formulas in crystal that don't work I have to raise an eyebrow and wonder.

Are project managers either former programmers who couldn't cut it remaining at programmers with their spaghetti code or people who have MBA 's without a whit of experience in technology.And if so are they nothing more that glorified babysitters with the herding cats philosophical approach to their programmer subordinates.

Good PMs, especially ones who are familiar with the SDLC are hard to come by. It's a broad field. One quote that I've seen consistently applied (correctly) goes "Those who can, do. Those who can't get promoted to management." I have a theory about that, it's to get them out of the way so the rest of us can do our job. I plan to stay in the trenches. Problem seems to be that people think that all PMs are alike... after a project is a project, right? How hard can it be? ... yeah, software is a different animal. Otherwise, my qualifications at having raised 8 dogs over the last few years means I can be a lion tamer. After an animal is an animal, right?

-tg

[FunkyDexter]

I've had a mix of bosses over the years.

Two companies that really stand out for me as places I loved working (and will therefore name) are Hamlet and Kerridge. Hamlet were a very small company whre there was a real family atmosphere. We didn't particularly socialise but everyone there was really cool. You genuinely felt that, if there was some crisis in your persoanal life, they'd be right there behind you doing their best to make sure you were OK, whether it was anything to do with work or not. I loved those guys - and no-one else would have let me get away with spanking my monkey in the office (if any of them ever read this they'll understand that reference ) Sadly I left when I saw the money signs, a decision I wish I could reverse. Kerridge were much bigger and you'd expect the whole thing to be really impersonal but that wasn't teh case. We'd go down the pub for lunch as a team at least once a week and you felt that you could just chat to anyone in the business - even if you didn't normally deal with for business. My bosses and team leader there were excellent too, even if one of them did look like the nazi from the beginning of Indianna Jones.

I've had some rubbish bosses too (who I won't name but don't really care if they work out I'm talking about them). The one that springs to mind most readily basically just spent six months busting my proverbials. He'd never give more than a couple of lines of text as a spec, wouldn't give me any time to expand on that and then bawl me out whenever I produced something because it wasn't what he wanted. If I produced something quick he'd complain that I hadn't put enough time in and he wanted a more in depth product. If I did something details he'd say I was wasting time and why couldn't I turn it around sooner. Once, after I asked a question on a forum (not this one) I worked out the answer for myself. I briefly discussed the answer with him and by the time I got back to the forum he'd already been on there and posted my answer as if he'd come up with it. By the time I left (they actually made me redundant) I was seriously stressed out and depressed - my self worth was through the floor. Fortunately my next job (which I pretty much walked straight into) was the aforementioned Hamlet.

I'd say never be afraid to walk away from a bad boss, but hang on to a good one so tight that start looking at you funny.

[MMock]

It's interesting this thread got resurrected - I am the thread starter, and I have to say I take back what I said I was taking back. That's the problem with my boss, he's very inconsistent. I can never predict how he's going to react. Sometimes he makes me feel like crap and sometimes it goes okay. I hate that. I can't stand feeling ambivalent toward someone. I want to either like them or not.

Anway, I too learned the grass is not always greener (nor the money) on the other side. I contacted my former employer, and while I expected him to tell me to go to the underworld I complimented him on his hardworking staff and how he himself works just as hard as his staff and how much I missed that. This was the boss with the bad yelling temper. He said it was a nice thing to say and a surprise. One thing lead to another and I ended up asking him if he had any work. He said had I asked four weeks earlier, I could've had my old job back! This was 11 months after resigning! What awful timing!!! He also said there's not much hiring in this economy right now, which I can see, so I guess I will stay put. But even my daughters said to me, just last night, maybe the new programmer will quit and I can go back! At least I have a place I want to go back to, and the door is open for someday.

The problem I am having now is the rigid schedule here. I have to work 7:30 to 4:30. Any hours out is time off. I have children, an elderly mother, and I live 38 miles away from my office. I've missed time because of weather and school closing early, student of the month awards, an interview, I just came down with the flu, etc. I don't even know how I'm going to get my daughter started with an orthodontist. My boss doesn't allow working at home or in the office if you're alone. (Recall that he doesn't even work here). So I have used up all three days of my personal time and gone into vacation days. Then he emails me last Friday that he hopes I am putting in extra work to get my project back on track. Can you imagine! He said extra work isn't allowed, now he's asking me to do it. Unbelievable.

[Shaggy Hiker]

So you want to go back to what you described as an abusive environment just because the abuser was nice to you for a change? What does that sound like?

[MMock]

No, the abuser wasn't nice to me "for a change" - he was always nice to me except for the one explosion. It's his wife he's not nice to. And he wasn't who I reported to directly, though he was the CEO of the company. I had a great boss, intelligent, fair, down-to-earth, supportive. From what I've read, that is hard to come by.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Oh, I don't know. People really liked working for me, too, though I have now switched to a job where I supervise nobody.

[FunkyDexter]

My boss doesn't allow working at home or in the office

Now that sounds like my kind of boss