Trustworthiness of the Bible (cont'd)

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 04:45 PM

OK... I read some (mainly the first and last pages) of the "Can you trust the Bible" discussion.

I'm here to stand in the "I believe it" camp.

My challenge to all you in the "I don't believe it" camp is to try and disprove it.
If you can do that in any part of it then there's a problem with it and it's not worth the time to trust it.
If you can't then you chould really consider actually believing what it says.

You post what you don't believe about it, and I or any of the others here that are in my camp will answer you.

I'd say good luck but that'd be pointless as the Bible is inerrant.

**HarryW** · May 8th, 2001, 04:47 PM

Good grief.

**SurfDemon** · May 8th, 2001, 04:56 PM

Er, surely the point is not to disprove it, but for you to prove it.

I could say that this dot on the paper infront of me is actually god. It would be almost impossible to disprove because I could always fall back on the catch all statement of "Well, god works in mysterious ways"

I'm glad you believe in the bible. The point of the other thread was do people believe in the bible. For you thats a yes, for me it's a no. simple.

Anyway if you really want somebody to shake your faith here's a theory I posted in the bible thread (sorry for repeating it):

If god does exist, how do you know you can believe him? Maybe this is all some huge practical joke on a cosmic scale. Maybe this is how god gets his kicks. And if god exists, then it stands to reason that Satan exists, so why shouldn't we worship Satan? All we know about him we've heard from God, and he's not exactly impartial in these matters Maybe Satans a great guy and this god fellow's been dissing him for millenia just because he's a lot more fun at parties and the chicks dig him?

The balls in your court.

SD

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 05:03 PM

Q:Why can I believe him?
A:Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin (which BTW is eternal separation from God, aka Hell).

Q:Why not worship Satan?
A:Simple. He's already been defeated. When Christ rose from the dead on the third day, Satan was defeated. He has no power in my life. That goes for any other Christian as well.

And no, I don't need to prove the Bible. It does that on it's own. I'm just trying to set you straight.

**HarryW** · May 8th, 2001, 05:09 PM

Hold me back....

**barrk** · May 8th, 2001, 05:15 PM

Watch it Harry...it's just not worth it! Walk away while you still can!!!

**SurfDemon** · May 8th, 2001, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by SoC
Q:Why can I believe him?
A:Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin (which BTW is eternal separation from God, aka Hell).

Q:Why not worship Satan?
A:Simple. He's already been defeated. When Christ rose from the dead on the third day, Satan was defeated. He has no power in my life. That goes for any other Christian as well.

And no, I don't need to prove the Bible. It does that on it's own. I'm just trying to set you straight.

But you only have this god fellows word for this. As for sending his son, again, this could be a deception. If he's as powerful as you say then this would be no problem to him. You still haven't answered how you know he's not lying. Or are you incapable of questioning the possibility that you have been deceived by god.

SD

**SurfDemon** · May 8th, 2001, 05:18 PM

Yeah Harry, don't let it worry you. If the chap wants to argue theology then I'll quite calmly go through the logical steps.

Think happy thoughts. (Although I have to say I entirely agree with your 'Good Grief' post

)

SD

**Lethal** · May 8th, 2001, 05:19 PM

Whats the consequences if you do not believe in God and come to find out, he does exist. You burn in hell. What's happens if you do believe in god, and come to find out, that there is not a god. Nothing....
You live with the worms
Game, set, match..

**barrk** · May 8th, 2001, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by SurfDemon
Yeah Harry, don't let it worry you. If the chap wants to argue theology then I'll quite calmly go through the logical steps.

Think happy thoughts. (Although I have to say I entirely agree with your 'Good Grief' post )

SD

Stating that he knows it's true because

Simple. He's the only one who has sent his only Son to die for me and save me from the wages of my sin

is not proof...it's not using any logic and leaves no room for discussion.....you're just beating a dead horse...Ibut if you feel so inclined SD...have a nut!

**parksie** · May 8th, 2001, 05:25 PM

I'm firmly in the atheist camp because there is no proof against God, and no proof for God.

Therefore by Occam's razor, since there's no proof either way, you take the most likely based on everyday occurences. Since neither I or anyone I know has ever seen a miracle, I'm going for the "no God" option.

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 05:29 PM

Occam's razor is both useful and useless. God both exists and doesn't, if we can get down to business then there's no doubt where this is going to end

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 05:35 PM

It's called faith. I have faith that God has been telling the truth (something you obviously lack). I have no reason to doubt what he says. When everything that God says has come true and been right and nothing Satan has said has ever worked out for the good, then I know who is telling the truth.

Example:
God Said He'd send his son to save us. It happened.
Satan said he'd make himself like God. That utterly failed. Now he's lower than dirt.

As for the possibility that Satan's the good guy...
Why is it that Satan is the one that tries to destroy us and not God?
Why is it that Satan points you to any religion except Christianity?

If you read the Bible, it says that Lucifer (Satan before he fell, meaning he was an angel) tried to make himself like God. and because of that, God threw him out of Heaven. He still has access to heaven, but does not live there anymore.

Are you denying that Christ even came to earth at all?

A few questions for you...

1)Why is it that satanic practices won't work around Christians? (EG: ougia boards (however it's spelled), fortune telling)

2)If God is so bad then why does he tell you that you're worth something and that he wants you while satan tells you you're nothing and that you shouldn't be alive?

3)If Satan's such a nice guy then why is it that he pushes stuff like suicide, drinking, drugs?

4)If you don't think you need God, why do you never feel completely at peace?

If you can't answer those questions, I can.

**parksie** · May 8th, 2001, 05:38 PM

1)Why is it that satanic practices won't work around Christians? (EG: ougia boards (however it's spelled), fortune telling)
Never tried a Ouija board, so I wouldn't know.

2)If God is so bad then why does he tell you that you're worth something and that he wants you while satan tells you you're nothing and that you shouldn't be alive?
Because Satan's right - I am worth nothing

3)If Satan's such a nice guy then why is it that he pushes stuff like suicide, drinking, drugs?
Because they're the fun part of life, at least to twisted people like me.

4)If you don't think you need God, why do you never feel completely at peace?
I am at peace. I'm perfectly happy with my life as it stands.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 05:43 PM

You're all posting faster than I can reply!

Whats the consequences if you do not believe in God and come to find out, he does exist. You burn in hell. What's happens if you do believe in god, and come to find out, that there is not a god. Nothing....

Well there is a God, so if you don't believe in him, yes it's hell.

Therefore by Occam's razor, since there's no proof either way, you take the most likely based on everyday occurences. Since neither I or anyone I know has ever seen a miracle, I'm going for the "no God" option.

So you've never heard of anyone beating cancer? living through something that should've killed them? Those are miracles.

Occam's razor is both useful and useless. God both exists and doesn't, if we can get down to business then there's no doubt where this is going to end

It's got 2 possible endings... I think you all know what they are.

**parksie** · May 8th, 2001, 05:45 PM

So you've never heard of anyone beating cancer? living through something that should've killed them? Those are miracles.

Not really. It's called medical science.

Remember that word: Science. Without it, if they lived, then it could possibly be a miracle.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 05:47 PM

Because Satan's right - I am worth nothing

God doesn't think so.

Because they're the fun part of life, at least to twisted people like me.

Where do these things take you? What do they do for you? They kill you. exactly what Satan wants. He wants to kill you before you have a chance to meet Christ.

I am at peace. I'm perfectly happy with my life as it stands.

Really? I'll bet that, if you use drugs and stuff like that, you are always looking for a better rush, a longer high, etc. That doesn't sound like peace to me. I'm talking about a peace that passes understanding.

**barrk** · May 8th, 2001, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by SoC

Are you denying that Christ even came to earth at all?

why do you never feel completely at peace?

Christ as a human has been documented so yes I do believe he lived.

Who says I never feel completely at peace? I am one of the luckiest people I know. I have a wonderful life. A husband of 20 years, three kids who I cherish and I don't want or need anything more. Who are you to pass judgement on me and assume that I am not ever completely at peace?

**parksie** · May 8th, 2001, 05:51 PM

three kids who I cherish

Well, two

SoC -- is it that strange to you that I might not want to go the "God route"? I may prefer Hell for all you know

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 05:54 PM

who told you Heaven is better than Hell?

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by parksie
Not really. It's called medical science.

Remember that word: Science. Without it, if they lived, then it could possibly be a miracle.

True Science agrees with the Bible. Remember that! :P
Example:
I'm not sure if it'd be psychology or not but this is what I'm going to call it.
Problems like drinking are usually done by the father in a family and the son when he grows up (or before in this twisted society). Even the Grandfather and son of the son would very likely be drinkers. That confirms a verse in the Bible that says the sins of the father are visited to the 3rd and 4th generations.

**barrk** · May 8th, 2001, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by parksie
Well, two

Oddly enough, Parksie...I do cherish Ian. He is teaching me that I lack patience...that I don't handle defiance well and making me look at how I could have handled situations better. Some times that bad stuff should be cherished as much as the good stuff! I know it sounds really weird but I think that Ian found out just where the line is that you don't cross and I know he'll think twice about doing it again! We'll both come out of this with a better understanding of how to deal with difficult situations....and how not to cause them.......if he's willing.

**parksie** · May 8th, 2001, 05:57 PM

Good point Katie

SoC -- my mum's the drinker, and nobody else is to the same extent. Shows how out of touch the bible is as well, especially since it seems to give the impression that men are superior, which is total bullstuff

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:00 PM

Who says I never feel completely at peace? I am one of the luckiest people I know. I have a wonderful life. A husband of 20 years, three kids who I cherish and I don't want or need anything more. Who are you to pass judgement on me and assume that I am not ever completely at peace?

I never said that you don't have peace. I said you don't have the peace that I'm talking about, peace that passes understanding. (don't ask me to explain it. it's past my understanding)

SoC -- is it that strange to you that I might not want to go the "God route"? I may prefer Hell for all you know

I don't see why. Why be burned forever? I'm talking NO relief. imagine the worst pain you've ever had and magnify that times infinity over eternity. That is Hell.

who told you Heaven is better than Hell?

Lets see... Streets of gold, worshiping Christ forever, and no pain or being burned in fire for eternity without any relief. I'd say that heaven is better.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:03 PM

SoC -- my mum's the drinker, and nobody else is to the same extent. Shows how out of touch the bible is as well, especially since it seems to give the impression that men are superior, which is total bullstuff

The truth is that men are better at leadership. That's the way men were designed. We run on fact, women run on emotion. Emotion can cause alot of problems in leadership. It does not ever say that men are superior. just that a women is not to be in authority over a man.

As for the Bible being out of touch... I see that you say "to the same extent" as if someone else does drink. That right there nullifies your statement.

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:03 PM

you didn't answer my qwestion although it was meant to be rhetorical

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:06 PM

Who?
I decided for myself. I just can't make it there on my own.

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:08 PM

you don't want or can't answer my simple question?

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:09 PM

I decided on my own. That answers your question.

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:12 PM

No it doesn't, because i've never seen hell or heaven.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:13 PM

Neither have I. I do know what each will be like though. I made my decision on which is better a based on stuff you can read in the Bible

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:14 PM

that was the answer i wanted. Now who wrote the bible?

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:19 PM

Men, inspired by God.

I see where you're going with this. But have you ever tried to just disprove one part of the Bible.

Another question. If it's so out of date why is it the all-time best seller?
Why has it survived through about 2 thousand years when no other book has?

What I'm getting at is if you think that the men who wrote this make the Bible untrustworthy, why is it impossible to disprove?

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:22 PM

How do you respond to the fact that I wrote the whole bible?
Why should i?
People has a "good" taste

**Bjwbell** · May 8th, 2001, 06:24 PM

if someone wrote a book saying there was a city of gold in africa 2000 years ago you couldn't disprove it.
what i'm saying is even if you can't disprove something doesn't make it true.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:26 PM

I'd respond like this. I don't believe you. Simply because of a few facts in the Bible.

1) No man (or woman) will ever exceed 120 years of age. (this was implemented after the flood so don't try to use Adam as a problem.)
2)The Bible is inerrant. You are not.

SoC · May 8th, 2001, 06:29 PM

Actually you can disprove something like that. All you have to do is dig, research, etc.
The Bible is different because if you want to try to disprove it, you can, but the more you try the more you'll realize that it's true.

Example:
Jack McDowell did this very thing, try to disprove the bible. He couldn't and became a Christian. He wrote a book called "Evidence that Demands a Verdict."
You should read it.

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:30 PM

I don't care if you believe me or not, i wrote the bible so that you would only believe what is written there, not what really is true. That doesn't conflict with 1) or 2)

**Bjwbell** · May 8th, 2001, 06:30 PM

How can the bible be free of errors when it's been translated several times?

**kedaman** · May 8th, 2001, 06:32 PM

because the truth adapts

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