C# Developers = Elitist?

[Blakk_Majik]

It seems as though every time someone asks me what language I use to write software, and I say VB, they look at me like I have some disease (I use C# and Java from time to time as well).

This is really starting to get under my skin. First I had to deal with COBOLers calling me a "point-and-click programmer" (I know COBOL as well), now people think they are superior just because they use curly braces? Give me a break. I've used several languages, as previously mentioned, in my time programming and I will take Visual Basic over all of them any day of the week.

It's even funnier when C# developers look down on me. I'm thinking, "you do realize we're using the same framework right? You know they both compile down to MSIL code correct?" I always challenge that they can pick any type of program they want, and I guarantee my VB program will run just as smooth as their C# app. Haven't had any takers as of yet.

I'm just wondering does anyone else come across these types? Oh, and if they don't use C#, it's C++ or Java. Oh, and if you have come across one of these people, has anyone ever given you a convincing reason as to WHY they feel C# is better?

[dclamp]

i have had the same experience... except it wasnt with VB... it was with php. timeshifter is convinced that php isnt even a real programming language, and i should use asp.net

[RhinoBull]

It seems as though every time someone asks me what language I use to write software, and I say VB, they look at me like I have some disease (I use C# and Java from time to time as well)...

Ignore all of them!

...First I had to deal with COBOLers calling me a "point-and-click programmer" ...

That is jealousy speacking so ignore them as well!

...It's even funnier when C# developers look down on me...

That tells me that he doesn't know damn thing about programming so ignore him!

...I'm just wondering does anyone else come across these types?..

All the time and you know what I do? Ignore them!

...Oh, and if you have come across one of these people, has anyone ever given you a convincing reason as to WHY they feel C# is better?

Not really - which is why you need to ignore them all!


ps, I can understand argument VB6 vs C++ though... but still noone should look down on you.



Best regards.

[RhinoBull]

i have had the same experience... except it wasnt with VB... it was with php. timeshifter is convinced that php isnt even a real programming language, and i should use asp.net

I remember a whole thread about it so if makes feel any better imho PHP has turned into quite respectable programming language - it wasn't one initially though.

[RobDog888]

One comeback for the VB/C# comparisons is that they are both based upon the .NET framework. Same foundation which gives you the same features granteed there are some monor differences for a small number of things. Nothing to really make one better then the other.

[mendhak]

They pick on you because you react. Take it in stride and make the jokes you want, but continue working on VB.NET as you please.

You also have the option of also learning C# and working in both so that you can also decide for yourself.

[dee-u]

....

You also have the option of also learning C# and working in both so that you can also decide for yourself.

(I use C# and Java from time to time as well).

[dee-u]

Those guys may have seen this or perhaps this?

[mendhak]

....

time to time != working with regularly

[syntaxeater]

There are some signifigant differences, but nothing crippling.

Truth be told - C# developers may come off as condescending, but are simply apprehensive of VB.Net developers. It's not that you can't write great applications with VB.Net or that it is less of a language by comparison... Simply put, VB.Net enables borderline programmers to stay borderline if they so choose (and in some cases, if they don't).

VB.Net is an amazing accomplishment when it comes to RAD and obfuscating what is happening behind the scenes. The only problem is, you have to make a serious effort to dig into the framework in order to grasp the vastness of what's really available to you. When a (sensible) C# developer tells you to learn C# - it's not because they are trying to kill off VB.Net or discredit your language of choice. It's a suggestion to expand your pallete and carry over some of the concepts that are not readily obvious in VB.Net.

I'm not saying learn C# to the point of ambidexterity with VB.Net. Learn it to the point you can read and understand what's happening. If nothing else, classic C and Java developers have been doing OOP for many, many years and are more inclined to migrate into C#. Being able to read their code may not teach you anything new about the framework, but it could deffinitely open some new doors on object modelling ideas.

Note: Professionally, I am a VB.Net developer.

[CoachBarker]

This has been a subject I have been pondering now for a few weeks. All through school the push was on for vb.net. We did some C++ and Java but the idea that vb.net was the preferred langauge of the businesses world was pushed hard.

I graduated in December 07 and spent 7 months interviewing, not one of the places I went to used vb.net. Of course I am in central NY ( the state not the city) so that is a factor. Myself and another developer (both vb.net, no C# experience) were hired to work on a project. We are both learning as we go along, and we are the only people working on this project, there is no one in house to get advice from or who knows C#. Hence why I am in the C# forum so much

I think my classes in Java have helped me as far as some of the syntax and writing style goes, but the biggest problem we both face is the difference in the syntax between C# and vb.net. Code converters help, but only up to a certain point.

I do look at it as a way to broaden my experiences and it is one more benefit to include in my resume when I decide to move on.

Just wanted to get this off my chest, without starting a new thread on the subject.

[syntaxeater]

...Code converters help, but only up to a certain point.

I agree.

Code converters are to programming what calculators are to math.

[Pino]

I moved to c# a year or 2 back after coding from Vb5 to vb.NET 2005. However in the places that I develop for I havent seen 1 VB.Net app. C# just seems to be the norm. I dont look down on VB programmers because I still consider myself one, however industry seems to have gone the c# route.

I still code VB if needed and I like to keep my head in the Vb world, but as I said c# is what the people who pay me want

Note: This is the areas I develop, and i'm sure people can find other areas where vb.net is the 'norm'

[techgnome]

I must be lucky then.... my last shop was an all VB shop.... and my current one is an all VB (.NET) shop ... And a few months back, when I was interviewing, I interviewed at several all VB shops.... maybe it's a regional thing, I don't know...

-tg

[CoachBarker]

And where are those shops located?

[Pino]

Regional, type of application standard of applications all of it will play a part in choosing a development platform!

Pino

[RhinoBull]

And where are those shops located?

About 150 mi (more or less) south of where you are so common down!

[techgnome]

And where are those shops located?

US, Midwest. VB is still very much alive and well here.

-tg

[syntaxeater]

US, Midwest. VB is still very much alive and well here.

-tg

I can attest to this as well.

[DirtyHowi]

I can attest to this as well.

anybody hiring ?????

[capsulecorpjx]

You guys are all noobs for programming in VM languages.

I program Assembly, and at most, when I'm feeling lazy, C or C++, but only with command line compilers.

[techgnome]

syntaxeater is in the same market I'm in.... and yes... there are companies hiring out here... my old company is looking for some one.... my current company is looking too (I think)... and there's a ton of recruiters and consulting firms that are hiring.

-tg

[DirtyHowi]

don't do recruiters if i can avoid it.

where abouts (major metro area)

[techgnome]

Why? That's one of the best waysto get plugged in to what's available.... some companies only go with staffing firms. They never hire directly.

Omaha, NE

-tg

[DeanMc]

They should see this from me. Learn one first but know both.

[capsulecorpjx]

They should see this from me. Learn one first but know both.

Wait C# can write unmanaged code? I thought all .NET languages are managed code languages, for a JIT compiler.

[techgnome]

noooo.. YOU write the un-managed code....C# gives the developer the ability to drop out of the managed sandbox of .NET and lets you run things in a "unsafe" manner... in general, it's recommended against doing this. However, for reasons of performance, occasionally, you can do it. Now, this is one of those "jsut because you can, doesn't mean you should" category. The times to do this should be few and far between. It should go with out saying that you have to take extra precautions when doing this too.

-tg

[capsulecorpjx]

noooo.. YOU write the un-managed code....C# gives the developer the ability to drop out of the managed sandbox of .NET and lets you run things in a "unsafe" manner... in general, it's recommended against doing this. However, for reasons of performance, occasionally, you can do it. Now, this is one of those "jsut because you can, doesn't mean you should" category. The times to do this should be few and far between. It should go with out saying that you have to take extra precautions when doing this too.

-tg

Can you use C# to write an entirely unmanaged code software? As if you plan to distribute your app to computers without the .net framework?

[Atheist]

Can you use C# to write an entirely unmanaged code software? As if you plan to distribute your app to computers without the .net framework?

Nope

[penagate]

Learn as many languages and platforms as you can and use the best one for the task at hand. That way, no-one will be able to label you as an "[insert language here] programmer", with whatever stereotypical connotations that label might have. You'll just be a damn good programmer instead.

[DeanMc]

Thats the point I was making penagate. At the end of the day while even I prefer VB over C# I understand that it is career suicide not to know as much about as many languages as possible. A lot of production house may use third party tools used in god knows what language It would be very foolish to assume that any software house will use one language even if it doesn't fit the bill.

[techgnome]

Can you use C# to write an entirely unmanaged code software? As if you plan to distribute your app to computers without the .net framework?

No.... you still have to execute SOME C# code to get to the unmanaged.... typically where I've seen unmanaged code running is in graphics.... to get something smooth, it's easier to go straught to the hardware, rather than through the .NET wrappers, I've also seen it where high-speed calculations are needed.

-tg

[syntaxeater]

noooo.. YOU write the un-managed code....C# gives the developer the ability to drop out of the managed sandbox of .NET and lets you run things in a "unsafe" manner...

It's not unique to C#, you can do this in VB.Net also. The process is called Marshalling and is available via framework.

As for distributing without .Net - runtime happens in two basic steps:

1) Objects are loaded.
2) Objects do things.

If your .Net object is going to work with unmanaged resources, it still needs to be loaded first. This requires the framework and there's no (official) way around that.

[Blakk_Majik]

Some good responses in here.

Another thought I had, isn't it strange how developers get "tied" to a language? I see a lot of people saying "learn as many as you can", and I agree with this. That is why I spend some time trying to learn the basics of things like Java and C#, but keep my skills sharp in VB.

If you think about it, programming is about solving problems. No matter what language you use, the purpose of developing a piece of software (for commerical reasons anyway) simplify the life of someone else. Software is used to respond to needs of individuals & businesses. If all you know is C++, how can you know that VB or Java will help you solve a business problem better?

I always find it funny how job ads require this "n" number of years using C# or "x" number of years using VB.Net. Why? It's because the people doing the hiring don't know what they're hiring for. .NET is what it is. A framework of classes, methods, etc. used to solve business problems. That's it. Why should it matter if I use VB or C#? I'm utilizing the same framework either way, and for the most part, the end result is going to be the same no matter which ".NET language" I use. What the ad should say is "x" number of years utilizing the .NET Framework. If the business needs require features not present in older frameworks, the ad can include a specific version. However, the person doing the hiring should realize that if someone knows 2.0, it is reasonable to assume they would be able to get up to speed relatively quickly on 3.0 and beyond.

[DeanMc]

However, the person doing the hiring should realize that if someone knows 2.0, it is reasonable to assume they would be able to get up to speed relatively quickly on 3.0 and beyond.

You know what they same about assumptions don't you!

[syntaxeater]

Why should it matter if I use VB or C#? I'm utilizing the same framework either way, and for the most part, the end result is going to be the same no matter which ".NET language" I use.

Team development, plain and simple. For the same point you make about the framework - if it all ends up the same, why should my entire development team have to be able to support/develop both?

However, the person doing the hiring should realize that if someone knows 2.0, it is reasonable to assume they would be able to get up to speed relatively quickly on 3.0 and beyond.

Yes and no. Some people using 2.0 aren't even primed for 1.1. Just last week, I had to support a 2.0 application that was using primitive arrays exclusively (redim preserves/ubound and all). The longer you have been exposed to a paticular version; the better your odds this person has caught onto the features.

[Blakk_Majik]

I believe that if you truely understand the framework itself, you will be able to support/develop both. For instance, I have done little C# coding. Mainly because the team I'm on uses VB almost exclusively, and when I get home from work the last thing I want to do is write more code. However, I can read C# code relatively easy and make changes to it if needed.

I mean srsly, this = me, using = imports, void = sub, etc., etc. The only thing about C# code I always mess up on is sometimes I forget the semi-colon (happens to me in Java as well). I also had a problem remembering the period in some of my COBOL statements. Now if you want me to debug Assembler code, heh, you're barking up the wrong tree.

But I stand by my statement that a programmer is a programmer. If all you can code is C++, you're a C++ developer, not a programmer. Before I started working, I didn't know Javascript from a hole in the ground. But you better believe I caught on quick when I had to make changes to an ASP application that was written entirely in it. And this wasn't nice and neatly documented javascript, the developer used all kinds of language-specific shortcuts and everything. I had to use google to kind of decode some of the shortcuts, but for the most part, I could read the code and know what it was doing. And if you can read the code, know what it's doing, I don't understand how you wouldn't be able to add code to make it do other things.

To Dean, yes I am aware of the statement about assumptions. However, I still say, in general, a 2.0 developer should not take forever to get up to speed on 3.0, 3.5 etc. That's why during the interview, you have to probe and find out if the person "hangs on" to things just because they work. The more resistant they are to "moving on", the less likely they will embrace changing framework versions.

To syntaxeater, I am aware that some people don't let things go. I mean, how many posts have you seen in the VB.Net forum that contain outdated VB6 code? When people learn something that works, they tend to hang on to it as long as Visual Studio supports it. It's rather ironic that software developers are some of the most change-resistant people.

[syntaxeater]

I am aware that some people don't let things go. I mean, how many posts have you seen in the VB.Net forum that contain outdated VB6 code?

That wasn't the point I was trying to convey. It's not that they won't or are unable; I was speaking from a hiring/management/lead perspective. If it's the same thing - choose one, not both. Which lead me into this and the reason for it in the hiring process:

However, the person doing the hiring should realize that if someone knows 2.0, it is reasonable to assume they would be able to get up to speed relatively quickly on 3.0 and beyond.

ALOT of these developers don't know they're horrible w/2.0. They made the transition really (read: too) easy and .Net doesn't push you out of your comfort zone. If you want to program like a legacy developer, then by all means continue. Nothing substantial is forced on you, and these people call themselves .Net developers. By listing 3.0/3.5/etc, they're really asking the question "are you actively progressing with the framework or trying to find a new 10 year programming niche?"

Deffinitely expect these to ask WCF, WPF, LINQ, Lambda, Generic Type, XAML (etc...) - esque questions in the interview. The position more than likely doesn't apply any of it in a serious capacity, but these are the canidate killer questions. The questions will be abstract and open ended, like... Give an example when you would use WPF. No right or wrong answer, only appropriate ones. Saying you "would like to learn and develop with the new features in 3.5" is not acceptable for this since it's a "current events" question; not technical.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think my signature line sums up the average discussion of the differences between C# and VB.

[techgnome]

During my recent job search, I was asked to rate myself on ".NET" specifically on .NET 2.0. Each time I answered "It's had to rate myself on something like that. .NET is such a broad technology, that it is impossible to know everything there is. There are several areas I don't know yet, but would like to explore, and the parts I do know, I'd like to think I know very well." When it came to rating myself on C#, "When .NET first came out, there were no examples in VB.NET, so I had to learn how to read C# and translate it into VB to use many of the examples out there. While I don't have any direct practical experience with C#, it's based on the same framework as VB.NET, the knowledge is easily transferrable."

I found a VB.NET 2.0 shop willing to take a chance on me, and now we're all moving to 3.5..... just in time for the announcement of 4.0 .... ;P

-tg