I'm going to set myself on fire

[I_Love_My_Vans]

Just to be clear, when I said he'd demonstrated the futility of protest, I really didn't want to detract in any way from the nobility of what Thic Quang Duc did. This was a guy who gave up his life in one of the most painful ways I can imagine to bring the plight of his fellow budhists (who were being horribly persecuted) to the attention of the world. He did this for the good, not of himself, but of others. Budhists at the time were being imprisoned and tortured for no greater crime than pursuing their religion. For him to make this sacrifice in the hope of bringing a stop to that situation is neither stupid nor selfish.

I also didn't want to imply that the act of protest was in any way invalid. In fact, I've been a political activist for most of my life. I was involved in the poll tax demonstrations (which sadly descended into rioting but I still hold the police responsible for that rather than the demonstrators - coraling thousands of people trafalgar square was only ever going to have one outcome), I marched against the removal of housing benefit eligibilty from students, I confronted Michael Howard over his immigration policies when he visited Winchester and made the local TV news calling him a hypocrite (he's only second generation himself), I've spent many a happy hour standing in Southampton city centre handing out leaflets for a variety of causes I felt were worthy of my time and I've lost count of the number of minor rallies and demonstrations I've attended over the years,

Rather, I simply no longer believe that protest actually effects change. This is true in the UK and is far more true in the US. This was finally brought home to me in the 'Don't Attack Iraq' demonstration. This was the single biggest protest the UK has ever had... ever! It was world wide. It was attended, not by screaming extremists, but by the moderate, educated and erudite mass of our population. It was entirely peaceful and planned in full accordance with the government's increasingly draconian anti-protest legislation (how dare a government tell me that I can't protest within their earshot?). We followed all the rules. We played the game their way. They ignored us completely. We made no difference at all. OK, I didn't expect to change the way things were going and I was pretty sure the attack would go ahead no matter what I did, but you'd have thought we might have caused some discussion, at least.

Our governments have become so disconnected from us that they couldn't give a toss about our opinions except for a period of about 6 months every 5 years, and then only if you happen to live in a close run constiuency. Our voice no longer has any meaning or any weight. If you think you live in a meaningful democracy, you've already swallowed the opiate.

edit> Crypto, that tenpence is still up for grabs. Obviously, given your propensity for mugging old ladies I don't feel I can trust you with it until after you've burned to death. Will you be able to collect? I don't want to have to stump up for the postage.

I am not reading all of that, someone summarise.

[FunkyDexter]

someone summarise

I hate the government. That's pretty much it.

[Foxer]

I hate the government. That's pretty much it.

The death of an idealist.

As for the American voting system, I'm pretty sure 100% of ppl outside the USA don't understand it and 95% of the pple INSIDE America don't understand it either.

In normal countries (read Westminster systems) each party puts forward their best candidate and the ppl vote. Can't get much simpler than that!

How did a thread about crpt catching fire turn to religion turn to demonstrations turn to politics? Way to go Crpt!

[Shaggy Hiker]

The death of an idealist.

As for the American voting system, I'm pretty sure 100% of ppl outside the USA don't understand it and 95% of the pple INSIDE America don't understand it either.

In normal countries (read Westminster systems) each party puts forward their best candidate and the ppl vote. Can't get much simpler than that!

How did a thread about crpt catching fire turn to religion turn to demonstrations turn to politics? Way to go Crpt!

Simple it is, and it sucks rocks.

The chance that your particular vote will change the outcome of an election is staggeringly small. Because of the electoral college in America, the probability is slightly increased, but still staggeringly small. For one thing, you need a nearly split election, or else you are just one in a sea. This means that the candidates can run for the average opinion, but the average opinion of a majority of the voters. The bulk of American presidential politics seems to be positioning yourself as acceptable to the average while trying to energize a base group. The reason for this is that a HUGE number of Americans don't vote at all. If you can excite this segment to actually come out and vote for you, that is as good as getting a bigger slice of the regular voters. This happened in the last two presidential elections quite notably.

There are well known and studied voting systems, such as rank order voting, which would be really simple, and would not allow a third party candidate to split the vote, but would more accurately reflect the will of the people. The reason the will of the people is better reflected by rank order voting (or whatever the proper name for it is) is that people are ranking their choices. Thus, if half the people love A and hate B, while the other half love B and hate A, but there is a C that both halves would prefer over the one they hate, then C will win. In the current system, half the people would get their first choice and the other half would get the shaft. With rank voting, nobody would get their first choice, but nobody would get the shaft, either. Better yet, the example presented is about the worst case scenario for rank voting, since there was no group that liked C best, a situation that NEVER arises. A more reasonable example would show that the average payoff for each individual would be higher than it is in the current system.

[crptcblade]

The death of an idealist.

As for the American voting system, I'm pretty sure 100% of ppl outside the USA don't understand it and 95% of the pple INSIDE America don't understand it either.

In normal countries (read Westminster systems) each party puts forward their best candidate and the ppl vote. Can't get much simpler than that!

How did a thread about crpt catching fire turn to religion turn to demonstrations turn to politics? Way to go Crpt!

Crptcblade 08

I will burn them all!

[homer13j]

Crptcblade 08

I will burn them all!

I can haz bumper sticker plz?

[crptcblade]

I can haz bumper sticker plz?

After I receive a donation check. I'm not made of money, damn it.