If I went self employed, how would I find work?

[FunkyDexter]

OK, so after much stress and being messed around by the company I'm working for I'm starting to give serious consideration to going freelance. I've thought about this for a long time I suspect I would be much happier working for myself. I've actually got a couple of ideas for products which might be marketable but they'd take time to develop and I'd need to carry on working in the meantime. I'd like to take on some freelance projects rather than work directly for a company or contract (though contracting would come in a fairly close second)

So assuming I go down this route, how do I find paid projects to work on to keep the mortgage paid. I'm sure some of my fellow forumites must have gone down this route before, but how did you get started?

[Hack]

What kind of contacts do you have through the company you currently work for, or companies that you have worked for?

Do you know anyone that is currently freelancing?

[FunkyDexter]

I know a couple of folks and I've picked their brains in the past. Generally the answer is 'word of mouth' but I'm not sure that will really work for me. They're web developers wheras I'm a really a desktop application/database developer. Small businesses tend to want web sites fairly frequently but there's less desktop application work around. If I can get a few projects under my belt then maybe word of mouth will help, but how do I get those first couple?

I've got a couple of tentative 'My mate the plumber might need something done' type offers but I don't know if they'll materialise. Also, I suspect the company I'm currently working for would need a few days a week for a month or so but I doubt that would last very long. Finally, I could do some back end stuff for my web developer buddies.

I suppose I could also impove my web skills to the point where I could market that (I have a smattering of ASP.Net skills but not to the point I think I could really sell myself). And Web development doesn't really fire my plugs.

[mendhak]

When you become a contractor, put your CV out, wait for the calls from recruiters. Getting the first contract is the toughest part and it may take months, but after that it's a matter of word-of-mouth. So you'll need to set a good first impression on the CV.

[FunkyDexter]

Sounds like common sense but put it out where? I know of a few sites (here, CW Jobs, various recruitment sites) and I could certainly put it in front of some agencies. Any suggestions for particularly good channels?

[Kasracer]

www.linkedin.com is an awesome site for building relationships and getting jobs. Almost all of the professionals I know (no matter what field) are registered (including myself ).

I tried to do this a few years back before I really had anything to show people (no portfolio or anything really) and I failed miserably. It got to a point where I tried to get a job at the company I left only to be turned down because I didn't stay my final two weeks (which is messed up as they told me I could go a week early and it would count but that doesn't bother me anymore).

I pressed on and got a good job then went to another job while building my portfolio on the side. Since I've done that and had my stuff out there I've had about 6 clients on the side while continuing to work. I would of liked to go completely freelance but it wasn't steady enough. I do have to admit that all of these clients were from word-of-mouth.

I would recommend busting your ass and start out while you're with a company and once it takes off, then go freelance only. Just diving into the deep end can either burn you or reward you but it's too much of a risk IMO.

[FunkyDexter]

Hmm, the portfolio things an interesting thought. I have been sole developer on products for some quite high profile clients (Royal College of Physicians, University of London, several others) but always as an employee of a software house. Are these the sort of things I can count as part of my portfolio? I certainly mention them on my CV under the blurb for that job.

[Kasracer]

Are these the sort of things I can count as part of my portfolio?

Yes! Unless you have signed an NDA regarding the client you can list what you did as well as a screenshot (as long as it doesn't contain sensative information of course).

I did some work on Bank of America's new website under my last employer. The first thing I asked was if there were any NDAs and if I could use it on my portfolio (it's up there now ).

Everything I worked on under other employeers unless there was an NDA is on my portfolio. We actually did work for a very large client that had an NDA but they never required us to sign it so I could technically post that as well but I didn't want to risk it.

[FunkyDexter]

Excellent! I've had some high profile client so that'll work in my favour. Sadly no screen shots but I could probably cancel my previous employers to get some (I'm still on very good terms and I'll be contacting them for freelance work anyway).

Speaking to a few freinds last night I've managed to get a freind's consultancy actively pitching me for development work. In that vein I'm going to go through the yellow pages (business directory to you colonials ) and contact all the consultancies in the area to see if I can partner up with them - that's likely to bring in some work I guess. I'll also contact all the development houses (I did this before when I was looking for a full time job and found alot of them were one man bands) to see if they've got any overflow or if I've got any skills they lack and could use occasionally.

Also, my IFA was over last night going through my impending mortgage renewal and she wants some work done so that's my first project booked (only a couple of days but hey, little acorns)

Finally, a freind pointed me at Rent a coder so I should be able to pick up a few things there.

I'm starting to believe I could actually pull this off

Any more suggestions and input is still welcome.

[Hack]

The problem with rent-a-coder is that the requests are for outrageous projects for which the requestor sets a maxmimum of about $100

My buddy and I used to go to rent-a-coder on a daily basis just for laughs. You wouldn't believe what some of those folks ask for, and what to pay virtually nothing.

[szlamany]

Find a local employment agency and have them farm you out. That helps you see what the "contract" world is all about and also helps you see what your billable rate can be (this is the most important thing to discover).

In my opinion you have to build your niche. You mention some businesses you have worked with - e-mail those IT departments and Business Dept's at those locations and tell them you are looking to work by the hour on projects. Ask if they have other contacts they can push you towards.

[FunkyDexter]

The thing is I'm hoping to freelance rather than contract, and I'm not sure agencies will supply that will they? It might be worth asking though. That said, I suspect I might have to do some contracting early on until I can get more established so I might as well start making contacts.

I've thought about contacting my old clients but I'm loathe to. That would feel like poaching clients off my previous employer and I'm still really fond of them (small development shop - 4 developers including myself - all still mates of mine). If they'd been ***holes to me I'd probably be less bothered about stepping on their toes but they treated me really well. Damn that little cricket on my shoulder.

[szlamany]

The agency might be able to find small jobs (short number of weeks or simply not full 40 hours weeks) to help make the money you need to continue. And if you stay in your niche then you build business credentials.

Do you already know what the old shop had for typical hourly rates or project costs?

In our business finding customers if difficult - they take 18 months to decide what to buy and it's usually debated by user groups for more then half that time.

[FunkyDexter]

They used to bill me out at about £750/day although it was always a bit more wishy-washy than a straight daily rate. Realistically I don't think I can ask for that (wouldn't it be nice though? ) as I don't have their infrastructure behind me. I'm thinking about £300/day until I get established and then increase that up to £500. To some extent it's going to be a 'what can you afford to pay?' approach.

I think the small agency jobs you're describing are likely to make up alot of what I can get to start with. I just want to avoid the 6 month, 5 day week type contracts to start with though. I want time either during or between projects so I can start working on my own ideas.

[RobDog888]

What I did was to put my resume up on a job board. I get tons of responses that I dont answer my phone anymore unless they have a specific job offering. With experience comes phone calls and emails from it. I also do some small contracting jobs via my ex-empoyer as I subcontract for them too.

Getting your own clients is best as you can reap all the pay rate that way. Contacting your ex companies clients is a bit cheezy in their eyes, perhaps, as they may keep their aliance with your ex employer. Getting larger clients is better too as the "friend" and smaller company possibilities usually fade out as its just too costly for them.

[FunkyDexter]

Rob, Can you recommend any good sites? I agree that large clients would be the way to go but they've got to be harder to bag in the first place I'd think.

My current company I work for has made me something of an offer. They're a very large roofing company and they'd paid a software house ALOT of money to develop a telesales app for them, they'd spent a year working on it and it still wasn't close to working - I got called in to trouble shoot it and had it up and running in 3 months (which is more indicative of the software companies abilities than mine). There're still some bugs, alot of outstanding enhancement requests and loads of reporting stuff still to do but it's now a working system. The company have said that if I carry on developing it, when it's complete they'll set up a new company to market it in it's own right and give me 50% shares. I can then run the technical side while they handle the marketting. All of which sounds too good to be true - because it probably is:-
1. They want to retain the full intellectual property rights - fair enough but that means at the point it's finished I'm left holding nothing but a promise. If they decide paint me out of the picture I've got no real recourse.
2. There're lots of areas where I think they just got it plain wrong at the analysis stage and the aproach is wrong. Trouble is it's really too late to change that now.
3. The original software company overengineered it from the get go and then swapped developers in and out several times so it's now an overcomplicated pasta program.
4. It's tailored very closely to this company's needs and I'm genuinely not sure whether it would work properly as a generic 'off the shelf' offering. It could be refactored to make it more generic but, given 2 and 3 above, it's probably easier to scrap it and start again if you want to make it more generic.

If they did live up to their promises and if some of the technical problems could be overcome then this would be a golden opportunity but I'm less than sure.

[Hack]

Do you think that is a market for an application like the one you are working on?

If so, then I would start working on a generic model now.

[FunkyDexter]

I thnk there's a market but there's a few players in it already. The unique selling point it would have is that it does so much more than the others on the market. The existing ones basically let you enter a bunch of numbers and then phone them using configurable scripts. Ours also has an appointment booking system which incorporates Salesmen's diaries, the ability to track leads from their sources so you can analyse your marketing, all sorts really. I'm not sure it performs the basic function of dialling as well or as flexibally as the existing products and they certainly look to offer better performance analysis but that's the sort of stuff that could be added in.

I'd agree with you about starting work on a generic model but
a) From the companies point of view the absolute priority is to support the existing business. As the systems already so tightly bespoked to their needs a generic model would actually be a step back so difficult to argue for politically.
b) I think it would be easier to build a generic one from scratch at this stage rather than refactor the existing system. Again, that's going to be hard to argue for. I need to do some analysis before I'm really sure of that though.

The company know that they would need to have a generic model before they could market it but the gap between knowing that and allocating time for something that won't give them an immediate benefit is a wide one.

[szlamany]

I would seriously consider not giving up propietary rights to the product. Sharing - basically allowing each of you to split and continue on ones own is better then no rights at all.

[FunkyDexter]

That's exactly my thinking, Steve. Trouble is, they're not putting that on the table at the moment. I think I could probably argue the case though. It's a tricky one because so much of the product existed before I came on board. The fact that it was a non-functioning white elephant and that, by the end of it, I'll have rewtitten at least 2/3 of the product is neither here nor there. Still, they can't expect me to work for about a year on a promise.

[szlamany]

It's time to lawyer up then. You need to start working up a contract and then your lawyer objects to and rightly changes the paragraph related to propietary rights.

From one of our contracts.

S&P (that's me) acknowledges and confirms that:
. The {customer} owns all the software, source code and all Work Product developed for it by S&P...
. The term "Work Product" includes but is not limited to:...

The {customer} acknowledges and confirms that:
. It's ownership of sortware and source code...is for the sole use of the {customer}...
. S&P has unrestricted rights to use, modify and sell the S&P software...

Basically they appear to have rights - but then again so do we.

And of course in order for a contract to actually hold up in court there has to be a give-and-take. If the contract is one sided it's weakened anyway. That's why most "non-compete's" don't hold up in court - as you giving up the right to compete without due compensation for that transfer of rights.

[Kasracer]

From one of our contracts.

Basically they appear to have rights - but then again so do we.

And of course in order for a contract to actually hold up in court there has to be a give-and-take. If the contract is one sided it's weakened anyway. That's why most "non-compete's" don't hold up in court - as you giving up the right to compete without due compensation for that transfer of rights.

In that contract you state that they own the software. I'm not a lawyer but it sounds like because of that clause, they could restrict or possibly sue you for selling, modifying or using any part of their software.

Regardless, having both statements in a contract contradict each other so I would imagine there could be potential legal issues. I mean, can you really have someone who owns a product but you're allowed to sell it without at least paying them some sort of fee?

[szlamany]

I paraphrased from a ten page contract.

But they don't really contradict - they clearly layout the two aspects of ownership. This particular customer took it about as far as possible - they had to "own" because they invested over $700,000 in development - how else could they convince their trustee's that less would be reasonable.

And we remain able to "use, modify and sell" - and clearly "unrestricted".

I don't particulary like this contract language - just wanted to show a proper two-sided agreement.

[FunkyDexter]

I recommend that you consider a career in politics. With that kind of double speak, you'll go far

Actually, it does make sense to me. It means the customer owns the product so it's usage is unrestricted except where explicitely stated otherwise. They can't resell it but that's probably not a big deal to them because that's not their raison d'etre. They can list it as an asset in the value of the company, use it as a selling point to their own customers, roll it out to new users etc and use it in all the other ways that are important to them but not to you.

On the other hand, you retain the right to modify, develop and sell it - which is all you really care about, I imagine. It's quite an elegant way of giving everyone what they want.

[CodedFire]

I dont know much about the software industry but i do know about industry in general and the old "carve a niche for yourself" thing is wrong. You should never stick to a niche.

Personally i would look back on all the products you have ever developed and see are there any candidates for generic off the self software. Stuff that requires little modification.

Think of an EPOS. They all function much the same way save minor modifications. Niches in any market are bad, all it takes is someone with a better understandig of your paticular niche and your on your ear.

Granted you will have some specialised products that you do better but a general rule is "Its a big pie, get your hands in as much of it as possible".

[RobDog888]

Rob, Can you recommend any good sites? I agree that large clients would be the way to go but they've got to be harder to bag in the first place I'd think.

My current company I work for has made me something of an offer. They're a very large roofing company and they'd paid a software house ALOT of money to develop a telesales app for them, they'd spent a year working on it and it still wasn't close to working - I got called in to trouble shoot it and had it up and running in 3 months (which is more indicative of the software companies abilities than mine). There're still some bugs, alot of outstanding enhancement requests and loads of reporting stuff still to do but it's now a working system. The company have said that if I carry on developing it, when it's complete they'll set up a new company to market it in it's own right and give me 50% shares. I can then run the technical side while they handle the marketting. All of which sounds too good to be true - because it probably is:-
1. They want to retain the full intellectual property rights - fair enough but that means at the point it's finished I'm left holding nothing but a promise. If they decide paint me out of the picture I've got no real recourse.
2. There're lots of areas where I think they just got it plain wrong at the analysis stage and the aproach is wrong. Trouble is it's really too late to change that now.
3. The original software company overengineered it from the get go and then swapped developers in and out several times so it's now an overcomplicated pasta program.
4. It's tailored very closely to this company's needs and I'm genuinely not sure whether it would work properly as a generic 'off the shelf' offering. It could be refactored to make it more generic but, given 2 and 3 above, it's probably easier to scrap it and start again if you want to make it more generic.

If they did live up to their promises and if some of the technical problems could be overcome then this would be a golden opportunity but I'm less than sure.

Something doesnt sound right. If they paid a software co to develop this app then how could they take it and have you develop it for sales? Do they actually own the rights to the code?

Dont opt for "shares" as there are always ways to avoid paying people by devaluing shares. Demand a % of sales and a % of intelectual rights to the code.

2 & 3 are usualy pitfalls of a bloated software company and many developers.

4 This is what you want 2 & 3 to migrate towards. As you develop new code start migrating new architecture to your future design. Slow migration is the only way to redesign it without putting it in a hole for another couple of years.

Dont go out on your own without a plan. The US economy is sucking big time right now and you dont want to make any decisions that you'd regret later.

Depending where you are located, http://dice.com is where I get all my leads from.

[FunkyDexter]

Do they actually own the rights to the code?

They do indeed. Apparently they insisted on it when they contracted the previous company. They even tried to ban the company from taking the code off site at one point so their developers had to come into the office to work . I've had some dealing with the previous company when I was first taking over and they're quite happy with the situation (actually, they were pretty impressed with me and have been quietly trying to poach me ever since). It's legit - just weird.

To be honest I'd blame 2 on my company. Even while I've been here they constantly come up with new ideas and don't think them through. Every new idea immediately becomes absolutely vital and needs to be delivered yesterday. I've managed quite a few clients over the years and I've never had one that ammends their requirements so rapidly and is so unwilling to understand the problems this can cause.

That's one of my main reasons for wanting to go self employed. While I'm working for them I usually end up carrying the can when they do something stupid. If I was independent and had them as a client I'd have a certain amount of scope to say: "Because that's what you asked me to do to your system".

[RobDog888]

But even being self employed or contracted you still need to present a work order outlining the requirements and have them sign off on it to start work. any changes or ill effects are then covered by extra hours needed since it is out of the scope of the workorder and if anything bad happens because of a request it is always a chore to prove that it was them and not some mistake you did. The liability is always there but as an employee you are only exposed to being fired whereas as self employed you are open to lawsuits so you need to get bond insurance etc.

Since they do own the code then you can and should demand a percentage of the sales and ownership of the code. You can sell yourself as a silent partner that just happens to be the lead developer on the project. Remember that you DO need to sell yourself and not let them be so demanding. Look at the position they are in. No one knows exactly what the code does and you are more effecient then anyone they could bring in as they would have to get familiar with it and wil make mistakes frm unfaimilarity etc. That will cost them money to make such a transition. So it is in their best interest to retain your sevices.

[FunkyDexter]

You make a good point about the liability and some insurance would definitely be in order with these guys. But it's also a matter of giving myself some space from the project. If I'm self employed I'm more able to specify timescales and properly documented requirements going in. As it is they want to be able to just say "Hey, write us a whole new sub-system and make it work exactly as we want... by Tuesday" and, because I'm directly employed I have to grin and bear it. If I was self employed I could turn round and say "OK, define exactly how you want it to work and then I'll let you know if it can be done, how quickly and how much it will cost... and if you don't like the answers then we don't proceed with this requirement"

I do have them over a barrel to some extent. If I left it would be a major setback for them and it's possible they'd abandon the product (they'd muddle along for long enough to source an alternative). That would be abandoning a project they've spent a small fortune on so I think it's more likely they'd replace me with another developer. Even so the time to recruit a new guy and train him on the system would be far longer than my notice period so they'd really struggle in the interim unless they retained me on a consultancy basis or similar. Generally I'm in a pretty strong position to bargain right now so all the suggestions people have given about what I should push for are very welcome

[RobDog888]

Oh one other point is not to put all your eggs in one basket. What if they had some financial issues and had to stop development on it. You would be stuck without any income or upcoming projects.

If you do get some other projects from other clients then you have to multi-task and spread out your timelines to allow working on each one as each projects priorities determine. then as you complete smaller projects you can get some income which working on the large project. Also you can have them make payments on the large project as each milestone is accepted and signed off. That way you wont go months without any income.

[szlamany]

I dont know much about the software industry but i do know about industry in general and the old "carve a niche for yourself" thing is wrong. You should never stick to a niche.

At our level we naturally fall into particular market.

When you develop app's and solutions in contracts that last years - you become a business partner with your clients. The "value" we sell is a 110% understanding of k-12 school districts, municipalities and benefits funds - all of their business processes.

That puts me in the not-for-profit public arena - so I could never march my shop into a business where P/L statements are paramount - I couldn't (and certainly wouldn't) want to profess a deep understanding of that.

Becoming a business partner with your clients is kind of what they expect of an IT shop. They might have IT staff - at the CIO level and department head levels. But when they don't have programmers - then a software shop or consultant with business knowledge of their operation is always a nicer fit.

Even if you plan to develop and market to stores for instance (flower shops and card stores and what not) - then you have chosen a niche - mom&pop retail.

If you are working with large distributors and installers of roofing products - then you are in a level of industry that has nothing to do with mom&pop shops - code, screens, business process - that you develop doesn't slot down in scale to mom&pop shops. At the large construction distributor level you might be asked to develop or interface with EDI operations to handle order and shipping of products, for instance.

Granted you have horizontal markets you can move into - roofing industry could move next into siding industry - windows, doors.

We recently tried to help a dance shop by scaling down our AP/AR/GL software and our student app's - what a nightmare. Out of our happy place we could not perform as usual. The customer had no staff at levels of responsibility we were used to. And the expectation of compensation was not at all where we wanted it to be

[CodedFire]

I see your point but just as you say the scale of your bussiness is somewhat bigger than a lone freelance developer.

[dee-u]

Finally, a freind pointed me at Rent a coder so I should be able to pick up a few things there.

www.guru.com should be better...

[RobDog888]

Yea its better but its still similar as any similar site. Its because there are no many people wanting to break into programming so they try those sites and charge next to nothing making it impossible for professional developers to make any real use of them.

I'd still say go with a job agency. They have the contacts and have them work for you to keep you busy.