Fidel Resigns Presidency!

[mendhak]

Hmmm so an attempt to overthrow a government is considered a threat huh? Wasn’t it Fidel Castro that led an armed revolution against the established Cuban government and overthrew it? Ohhh the irony…

Yes, he did. We could backtrack all through history and even claim that the Americans have a revolutionary attitude just like Castro, as they fought and overthrew and kicked out their British overlords. But this is about why Castro did what he did and that he cannot be held completely responsible for what history teaches us.

Do you see what I'm saying here?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Whilst we're talking about Cuba, how come the US has this dry foot policy or whatever it is. Two things about it confuse me...

1) If a cuban sets foot on US soil, he automatically get's residency..... yet immigrants from other countries (with far worse human rights records against their citizens) have to jump through hoops.....

and

2) How come the coast guard put so much effort into stopping them when they are just off-shore... if they stop them in time, they get sent straight home... it just seems kinda weird that you have guys waiting on the beach with open arms, but first the immigrants have to make it passed another bunch of guys out at sea (who work for the same government) who are actively trying to stop them.... Mybe it's kind of an immigration test, if you can sneak past the coast-guard, you're just the kind of immigrant we need.

It was my understanding that any Cuban refugee was taken to the US, while any non-Cuban refugee (mostly Haitian down there) was deported. Perhaps that was only non-USCG recoveries.

The US policy regarding Cuba was originally based in cold war policies, but it has been maintained by other interests for other reasons.

[SurfDemon]

It looks like they have to make it to land.... if they can stop them while they are still in the water, they're going home....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_feet,_dry_feet_policy


This story is a good example

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/01e3.htm

[homer13j]

Mybe it's kind of an immigration test, if you can sneak past the coast-guard, you're just the kind of immigrant we need.

Of course. America needs skills such as being able to turn a '59 Buick into a boat...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I certainly don't know all the different rules. After all, there is one or two groups down there that patrol off Cuba to pick up any refugees early on, and those folks are taking them to Miami, not returning them. There was also a case while I was down there, where some Cubans and Haitians got together, and when they were picked up the Cubans were claiming the Haitians were Cuban so that they would get to go to the US rather than being returned to Haiti. What I don't remember was who picked them up. I think it was a commercial vessel rather than the USCG. At that point it may make more difference who gets in contact first. There are organizations in the refugee community who take in any Cubans they can, though I don't know how far out they reach.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Of course. America needs skills such as being able to turn a '59 Buick into a boat...

Absolutely anything. While I was living in the keys, a windsurfing instructor arrived in the lower keys after windsurfing from Cuba. He was nearly dead from dehydration, but he had made it. That's really straddling the line between bold and stupid......though when I think about it, I can't say I wouldn't try it on a whim....with a bit more water, and more experience on a windsurfing board. Haven't done any of that in years.

[SurfDemon]

Man, a '59 Buick? It would be hard to find a car that was any heavier.... that is quite a feat!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Google for the cement boat competitions.

Water weighs right around 65 lbs/ft^3, which means that to float a two ton object would require 61 cubic feet of air, which may be smaller than a king sized mattress. Not all that much floatation, really.

[homer13j]

Man, a '59 Buick? It would be hard to find a car that was any heavier....

The only cars they have in Cuba are pre-revolution American cars, a handful of Soviet Trabants (arguably the worst car ever made) and hordes of Chinese taxicabs.

As soon as that embargo is lifted I'm heading there looking for a restorable '59 Pontiac Tempest - like most it'll probably be retrofitted with a Romanian diesel engine...

[Tom Sawyer]

As soon as that embargo is lifted I'm heading there looking for a restorable '59 Pontiac Tempest - like most it'll probably be retrofitted with a Romanian diesel engine...

Or you could just ship it to Canada today and drive it across the border.

It's kind of lame to have an embargo on a place in order to cause economic hardship to produce some effect when the rest of the world stopped the embargo decades ago and is trading freely with the place.

[Tom Sawyer]

Also, I checked out a Cuban car rental site and they seem to have modern everything (except US models, of course).

[FunkyDexter]

outside Cuba he’s hated

Nope, inside the USA he's hated. Outside Cuba he's viewed largely with indifference. About the only time Europe, Asia, Africa or Australasia get's interested in him is when you Americans fail to off him in yet another amusing way (I hope you don't stop doing that, by the way; we do like a good laugh). I'd guess that those of us who are interested in him view him with more admiration than contempt but there's so little interest in him overall that it's pretty hard to judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FishGuy
So again why is Che Guevara so revered?


Because a photographer from Life magazine once took a romantic photo of him that made liberals swoon and buy lots of t-shirts and posters with that image on it thus supporting the evil capitalism they so despise.

That pretty close to the truth but I think there's a bit more to it than that. Of the two of them Che was the romantic warrior type while Fidel was the boring political type. Che was an idealist whereas Fidel was more of a pragmatist. All told Che's just easier to make interesting. If you read up on him, though, you quickly start to realise that he was a bully and a thug and some of his actions bordered on the psychopathic. Che may be more interesting but Fidel's a whole lot more admirable.

[Xanith]

Nope, inside the USA he's hated. Outside Cuba he's viewed largely with indifference. About the only time Europe, Asia, Africa or Australasia get's interested in him is when you Americans fail to off him in yet another amusing way (I hope you don't stop doing that, by the way; we do like a good laugh). I'd guess that those of us who are interested in him view him with more admiration than contempt but there's so little interest in him overall that it's pretty hard to judge.

I was refering to Cuban-Americans (living in the US) not by the rest of the world. I am well aware he is admired by socialists living everywhere in the world (including the US).

X

[Tom Sawyer]

I was refering to Cuban-Americans (living in the US) not by the rest of the world. I am well aware he is admired by socialists living everywhere in the world (including the US).

X

It's not that he's admired, it's that he's not cared about. If you'd list the 20 most repressive regimes in the world, I doubt that Cuba would make the list and you'd probably find half of them are US trading partners.

It's just the general dumbness of the sanctions that people find funny, not that they support the person the sanctions are against.

[homer13j]

Or you could just ship it to Canada today and drive it across the border.

Something tells me I might have a bit of trouble trying to register a car in the US with a Cuban title...

Also, I checked out a Cuban car rental site and they seem to have modern everything (except US models, of course).

You do realize those those a for tourists, right? Like the luxury hotels and upscale gift shops they are there to cater to tourists, not Cubans.

I agree that the embargo is quite silly and a cold war remnant that should have been done away with long ago.

[Lord Orwell]

since the embargo has been going on for 49 years, i will assume the cold war was also.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Cuban sugar would greatly impact US markets. Whenever the embargo came up, the cheap price of Cuban sugar was cited as a major reason to maintain the embargo.

That may be cynical, but it is a commonly held view. If it is correct (it has been over ten years since I paid attention to those debates), then the US embargo may have more to do with proping up a sector of the US economy (at the expense of the US consumer) than it does with foreign policy.

Sugar or sweeteners, are used in most US foods. Therefore, the production of those sweeteners is HUGELY important for some highly influential businesses. If the soda manufacturers alone, were able to get a source of cheaper sweeteners, it would be catastrophic for some US suppliers. For that reason, tariffs on sugar are maintained (which keeps prices elevated on those goods that use sugar). The argument was that Cuban sugar would flood the market with a cheap alternative to price-supported, US sugar.

[Tom Sawyer]

You do realize those those a for tourists, right? Like the luxury hotels and upscale gift shops they are there to cater to tourists, not Cubans.

I agree that the embargo is quite silly and a cold war remnant that should have been done away with long ago.

Of course they're for tourists. How could someone in a communist country afford a new car? It's not like it's a workable socioeconomic system or anything.

My point was that the embargo doesn't stop them from getting anything they want in and they don't even have to break the law to do it. It really is one of the stupidest things that the US government is up to - and considering all the things they're up to, that's saying a lot.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Not for the sugar industry.

[Xanith]

Not for the sugar industry.

How much sugar does the US actually produce? It was my impression that the US imported most of the sugar they used. If Cuba exports its sugar already the supply on the market wouldn’t change any so prices wouldn’t be affected simply by Cuba importing sugar into the US. Also with the US not making a lot of its own sugar I can’t see it adversely affecting that to any great degree either.

X

[Tom Sawyer]

How much sugar does the US actually produce? It was my impression that the US imported most of the sugar they used. If Cuba exports its sugar already the supply on the market wouldn’t change any so prices wouldn’t be affected simply by Cuba importing sugar into the US. Also with the US not making a lot of its own sugar I can’t see it adversely affecting that to any great degree either.

X

America's Bittersweet Sugar Policy

and the rationale behind it from wikipedia:

...the U.S. sugar-industry, which donated $2.7 million to US House and US Senate incumbents in the 2006 US election, more than any other group of US food-growers. Especially prominent lobbyists include The Fanjul Brothers, so-called "sugar barons" who made the single largest individual contributions of soft money to both the Democratic and Republican parties in the political system of the United States of America.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I won't compete with TS's post, but I smell sugar production every time the wind comes from the north, or whenever there's a strong inversion, because there's a sugar beet factory not far from here.

[Xanith]

If its already US trade policy to protect the US Sugar industry how would a lifting of the embargo on Cuba change anything? Those imports would still be blocked with sugar imports still being restricted to a certain level.

X

[Tom Sawyer]

If its already US trade policy to protect the US Sugar industry how would a lifting of the embargo on Cuba change anything? Those imports would still be blocked with sugar imports still being restricted to a certain level.

X

It wouldn't change anything. The trade embargo has little or no economic effect on either side and lifting it wouldn't change much of anything except that Cuba would then have access to the US market and the markets of every other country in the world as opposed to having access to every market in the world except the US.

There would be no effect on the sugar industry.

[nemaroller]

Nope, inside the USA he's hated. [I]

If the US government really cared to one-off Castro, it would be easily done in a Noriega minute. Something should tell you that if Bush doesn't pay attention to Castro, certainly, most Americans don't either.

But the Cuban exile community in Miami does.

In 1959 after Castro gained control of Cuba, the fallen government patriots fled to Miami to seek political asylum from political executions by Castro.

Those fallen Cuba patriots had a lot of wealth due to their previous roles, and the community they built in Southern Florida along with the 2 million Cuban exiles has built a very strong lobby in the US Congress, thanks to Florida having a large number of Representatives.

Castro wanted to execute the former leaders, however, it wasn't until one of these wealthy ex-patriots began flying private airplanes into Cuba airspace and dropping incendiary devices at the regime quarters, that Castro became annoyed that the US officials seemed indifferent to stopping these flights.

The official US response at the time was indifferent, simply because it was seen a Cuban conflict, and it would work itself out.

However, the final nail for Castro was the refusal for the lifting of US tariffs on Cuban sugar, which would make it cheaper than domestic US sugar. Castro then began selling to the Soviet Union - of all possible places -which bought the sugar at a premium in what obviously amounted to an exchange for missile batteries in Cuba.

And it was at that moment, people in the US got pissed. Unfortunately, little could be done with the Soviet Union backing Castro. And 30 years later, when the Soviet Union fell, most people had long moved on and didn't care anymore.

I am for lifting the embargo, as are most Americans. But that doesn't matter since the Cuban Americans themselves are the ones pushing for the embargo.
Bush allowed medical and some agricultural supplies to be exported to Cuba in the early part of this decade. But Castro again defaulted on payments - just like he has defaulted on 10 billion of EU money - so they stopped.

And to be frank, I honestly don't know what is with the perception in Europe and elsewhere of Castro being some untouchable foe of the United States that would lead to admiration. He isn't untouchable - simply old and powerless. So who cares?

[nemaroller]

Hopefully, Raul will shortly follow his brother, and in a moment of senility declare all Cuban women shall wear daisy-dukes like they do in Miami... now, THAT, would be admirable!

[silentthread]

Excuse my ignorance but why is Fidel seen as a hate figure yet Che Guevara is seen as ikonic?

Because of a few liberal minded college students that think it's cool to wear Che t-shirts. Yet, they don't realize how much they can offend other's by wearing them. It's just as bad as wearing a Hitler t-shirt.

[silentthread]

so does this mean the end of all the communist dictators in the world, or will his brother just do the same as fidel?

His brother is taking over. :-(

Honestly though, I have my life built here in America. I went to college, married, had kids, bought a house, and I pay my taxes.
So if Cuba becomes free, it will be many years before it's a livable environment. I won't move back, but I will probably vacation over there once in a blue moon.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Yet, they don't realize how much they can offend other's by wearing them.

I thought that WAS why kids wore the things they did.