Outsourcing?

[Blakk_Majik]

Hey all, me again.

You probably don't remember me, but a few of you were very helpful with some of my questions regarding not only programming, but my post about career advice as well.

Anyway, I am happy to say that I will be completing my bachelor's this semester, with graduation a mere three weeks away. I'd also like to add that I have been recruited by a Fortune 500 company as a programmer and will begin work in February (you will only understand the irony of this if you remember my original post about career advice).

However, over the past couple of years, I have become increasingly worried about outsourcing. Am I worrying too much or not enough? I've been getting so much conflicting information on the topic.

Now, I will say that I may not be in immediate danger of having my job outsourced, since the company I will be working for is one that is very particular about protecting their ideas, developments, etc. I'm highly doubtful they would let a foreign country have access to this kind of information.

I really just want a straight answer for this, since I am considering going for a Master of Information Systems, and maybe even a PhD. I'll save that school money for Burger College if I'm just going to be laid off in 3 years.

[Hack]

Now, I will say that I may not be in immediate danger of having my job outsourced, since the company I will be working for is one that is very particular about protecting their ideas, developments, etc. I'm highly doubtful they would let a foreign country have access to this kind of information.

Then I would say you are worrying too much.

I've been through an outsourcing. I was outsourced in 1998 and spent much of the following seven years doing contract work. I was never out of a job, and in many cases, made more money than I was making as an employee.

[techgnome]

I'd agree with Hack's assessment. The outsourcing is a pendulum, and at some point, it's going to swing back (my opinion is that we are almost to the end of the swing towards outsourcing.)

Besides, the only kind of software development that can be outsourced is generally "sweat shop" style types of coding. The kind that could be done by just about anyone with 2 fingers and can read.

There's a number of problems with outsourcing - especially off-shore - language barriers, time, quality..... I think a lot of organizations are going to find out that while in the short run money was saved, the TCO is going to be greater over the long run.

-tg

[Hack]

There's a number of problems with outsourcing - especially off-shore - language barriers, time, quality..... I think a lot of organizations are going to find out that while in the short run money was saved, the TCO is going to be greater over the long run.

Completely agree with this. In fact, I think a lot of companies are already realizing this.

The company I actually work for had a whole slew of off shore programers working on various stuff. Over the last year or so, more and more of that stuff has been brought back into our shop here. The reasons for that are the three that tg mentioned.

language barriers, time, quality.....

[Blakk_Majik]

Well, I have definitely noticed that some call center jobs have been relocated back to the states, for just the reasons mentioned. I was actually very surprised to call my credit card company a couple of months ago and hear a New England accent.

In actuality, many of the companies that recruit students from my school do not outsource, not to foreign countries anyway. The company I'm going to be working for actually develops 90% of their applications in-house, with the remaining 10% going to a local consulting firm.

But I've noticed the poor quality of packaged software for over 5 years now. Have you actually seen some of the junk they call code in these things? Horrendous. I think that's why the programs are so freakin' huge now. Not because of what the program does, but because of wasted resources that the sloppy code is causing the application to use.

And I have NO IDEA why any company would think that data warehousing/database development (which is what I really want to be involved in) would be a good piece of business to send overseas. The integrity/security issues alone should be enough to make any competent CIO completely balk at the idea.

[Hack]

So, are you feeling more comfortable about the whole out sourcing thing?

[Blakk_Majik]

Somewhat. I mean, it is good to hear stories from you guys about dealing with the outsourcing successfully, but there are a lot of people out there that weren't so lucky.

I'm still hesitant to spend money on an advanced degree though, at least at this point. I already owe plenty in student loans. I'll just pay those off, while also waiting for the market to become more stabilized, and then make a decision.

[Hack]

I'm still hesitant to spend money on an advanced degree though, at least at this point.

I disagree. Consider the money it would cost to be an investment that, like all investments, will some day return a dividend.

However, instead of investing in a stock, you will be investing in yourself. Many is the time when I feel that is the best kind of investment.

[Blakk_Majik]

I am all for investing in myself, which is why I went back to school in the first place.

However, I am still not comfortable enough in my chosen profession to invest more money into university education. MCSE, MCAD, MDBA, fine. However, before I invest in my MBA and PhD, I have to be sure that I'll actually have the job opportunities available to make full use of those credentials. And with IT, as much as I love the field, it's just not stable enough right now.

[Hack]

Well, you aren't going to get those degrees over night and no one can predicate market stability years into the future (at least not accurately anyway.)

[FunkyDexter]

I'd say a Masters or PhD is probably a waste of time from a career point of view. I've yet to see a single development job advertised in the UK that required anything beyond a Bachelors. The US may be different but in the UK your experience is far more important from a recruitment point of view.

That said, I think it could be a rewarding thing to do from a personal point of view. Seriously, how cool would it be to introduce yourself as Doctor Majik?

[techgnome]

Depends.... Masters will get you into management, possibly even teaching at public schools. the PhD will get you into teaching at colleges and out of management.

I don't put much stock in degrees in this industry... but that might be because I'm the only developer in this shop (out of 11) who doesn't have a Bachelors.... just a simple Assoc of Applied Sci in Computer Sci (courtesy of the US Air Force). But I'm also finding out I'm more the exception than the rule, so what do I know?

-tg

[RobDog888]

Agree with most comments about outsourcing. Basically companies are finding out they get what they pay for.

I think most outsourcing now a days is for phone support and less for programming.

Go ahead and get a job now and go to school part time to continue to your masters. Not really needed but it may also hurt you in getting into a position that the employer feels you are "overqualified" for because of your degree.

[Hack]

I don't put much stock in degrees in this industry

And in keeping with this philosophy, I do have a bachelors.

I have a B.A. in English. As a second semester senior, I still needed 3 hours in Math to satisfy my G.E. requirements.....I took Math 101 for Morons

[GaryMazzone]

-tg

I tend to agree with you. I as an AS in Computer Information Systems only. Some places are saying that they want a degree but they are satisfied with the AS and my experience.

There was a time I was looking for another Oracle position and the Lead DBA said he would not hire me (I had 10 years experience as an Oracle DBA at the time) and would rather hire some with a BA in English because they had been taught how to think while they were in school. I just laughed and said OK I guess you think I'm stupid then. I did not get the job.

[Blakk_Majik]

Depends.... Masters will get you into management, possibly even teaching at public schools. the PhD will get you into teaching at colleges and out of management.

This is the only reason I want the degrees. It has always been a long term goal of mine to teach at the university level. I have had some outstanding instructors during my time at school, and I want the chance to give future IT professionals the same leadership and guidance I received.

It's so sad that in this country, having a good education means you WON'T get the job.

[Hack]

It seems to me as though you are headed down the right road.

At you still at a quandry on whether to pursue your Masters?

[Blakk_Majik]

I will get it eventually. The master's program I want to get into is for professionals, and requires 2 years of experience.

I'm pretty sick of "school" right now anyway, although I do plan to get my MCAD within the next six months.

[Hack]

Well, good luck and all the best!

[RobDog888]

You might want to hrurry and get started on the MCAD as the cert will probably be retired soon (thinking in June).

Also, the main reason that people with degrees dont get the job is because they are considered "overqualified" for the position. aving a degree doesnt mean you wont get a job but it will limit your ability to get any job.

[Hack]

You might want to hrurry and get started on the MCAD as the cert will probably be retired soon (thinking in June).

Why are they retiring it?

And, if it is going to be retired, then what would be the point of getting it?

[techgnome]

I don't think the Cert itself will be retired... it's the tests that will be retired.... when 2008 versions come out. current exams are geared towards 2005, but the new ones will probably focus on WPF, WCF and .NET 3.5.

-tg

edit - and jsut because a cert is retired, doesn't make it invalid.... it's just not current or given out in the future.

[RobDog888]

Yes, basically they retire the exams and you can no longer gain that cert. The cert is actually "inactive" aas a Microsoft status. Only "active" certifications are the ones that are current technology. This is how MS tries to get you to keep up on technology.

I have a NT 4 Workstation test passed back in the day and the test is retired and the cert is considered inactive by MS. Now even my VB 6 certs are "inactive" too. But my 2003 cert is the only acive certification.

MCAD and MCSD are from .NET 2003 and since the recent release of 2008 it is now two versions behind and nothing has been released for the scheduled discontinued exams for Junes discontinued exams yet. So info should be coming out soon.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mc...storetire.mspx

[RhinoBull]

Well, I have definitely noticed that some call center jobs have been relocated back to the states, for just the reasons mentioned. I was actually very surprised to call my credit card company a couple of months ago and hear a New England accent...

Would you be surprise to hear that people (off shore) are trained to speak your dialect?

[Hack]

MCAD and MCSD are from .NET 2003 and since the recent release of 2008 it is now two versions behind and nothing has been released for the scheduled discontinued exams for Junes discontinued exams yet. So info should be coming out soon.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mc...storetire.mspx

Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse or get too far of topic, but it seems to me that rather than retire them, they would simply upgrade them to match the existing technology levels.

I have a NT 4 Workstation test passed back in the day and the test is retired and the cert is considered inactive by MS. Now even my VB 6 certs are "inactive" too.

Me too....same two areas even.

[RobDog888]

Well you can take the exam(s) to upgrade your cert to the new one but those are only offered for a short time after the new certs come out in order to kind of "promote" the new cert and get certified members to upgrade to it.

Probably after the holidays Im going to be taking more tests again in hopes of getting all 5 passed by June for my MCSD as 2003 .net is the last version to have a MCSD cert available. The 2005 certs are different.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Would you be surprise to hear that people (off shore) are trained to speak your dialect?

NOBODY is training anybody to speak with a New England accent. Midwest, yes, and maybe even deep south, but not New England. Heck, I can barely speak it myself after growing up there.

Outsourcing is odd. India is now outsourcing some of its outsourced projects back to the US. In fact, back to Idaho. It would be mighty strange to have my job outsourced, and end up getting it again through two layers of abstraction. It won't happen, though.

As for education, different fields have different requirements. In this state, you can't even get considered for a biologist job without at least a masters degree, whereas you can get a job as a programmer with a totally unrelated Bachelors degree. In biology, a Masters opens more doors, while a PhD generally means you're going to be a professor, though there are a few exceptions. On the other hand, my brother-in-law dropped out of a Masters program because he wanted to be a coder, and figured that with a degree he would be relegated to pure theoretical work. Just look around once you get to the job and figure out what level of education gets you to what position, and base your pursuit on that.

Having said that, though, if you really want to teach at the college level, not only is that a good thing, but you are almost certainly going to need at LEAST a Masters.

[RhinoBull]

NOBODY is training anybody to speak with a New England accent. Midwest, yes, and maybe even deep south, but not New England. Heck, I can barely speak it myself after growing up there...

Well, I was surprised by the people who did study different dialects. Come to Big Apple - it may surprise you as well.

Regards.

[capsulecorpjx]

Hey all, me again.

You probably don't remember me, but a few of you were very helpful with some of my questions regarding not only programming, but my post about career advice as well.

Anyway, I am happy to say that I will be completing my bachelor's this semester, with graduation a mere three weeks away. I'd also like to add that I have been recruited by a Fortune 500 company as a programmer and will begin work in February (you will only understand the irony of this if you remember my original post about career advice).

However, over the past couple of years, I have become increasingly worried about outsourcing. Am I worrying too much or not enough? I've been getting so much conflicting information on the topic.

Now, I will say that I may not be in immediate danger of having my job outsourced, since the company I will be working for is one that is very particular about protecting their ideas, developments, etc. I'm highly doubtful they would let a foreign country have access to this kind of information.

I really just want a straight answer for this, since I am considering going for a Master of Information Systems, and maybe even a PhD. I'll save that school money for Burger College if I'm just going to be laid off in 3 years.

PhD is not worth the effort. I'm not sure what MIS is these days, but I've seen a regular Computer Science degree get more respect.

In any case, work experience is more important than anything else, that being said, getting Internships during College is the real goal in attending college other than the degree.

If you never landed an Internship during College, consider your degree worthless in helping you land that first job.

As for Outsourcing, well the market is still good, and many programming assignments are restricted from being outsourced due to company trade secrets (ex Microsoft) or because it's a government contract.

In any case don't go into a field just for the money, if you like doing it, then go for it. Conditions change over the years anyway, and software/IT will always have a market.

[capsulecorpjx]

You might want to hrurry and get started on the MCAD as the cert will probably be retired soon (thinking in June).

Also, the main reason that people with degrees dont get the job is because they are considered "overqualified" for the position. aving a degree doesnt mean you wont get a job but it will limit your ability to get any job.

You can always hide qualifications though.

[Hack]

You can always hide qualifications though.

Oh, you are so right. I know a whole lot of people with Masters degrees that, on their jobs apps, never got mentioned.

[RobDog888]

Yes, of course but also a good example of not needing a Masters to get into a position.

[Blakk_Majik]

So basically, if I choose to move forward to PhD status, I shouldn't tell that to anyone until I apply for a professor job.

I do realize that experience is paramount, which is why I'm currently focused on the job I will be doing for a couple of years.

Can anyone give me ideas on what kinds of certs I should pursue, other than the Microsoft ones?

[RobDog888]

Ok, now im confused. Are you wanting to get a job outside of some university or a job as a professor in a university? You need to target one or the other as both ahve different paths.

[Blakk_Majik]

Well, I'm going to be working for a company after graduation. I don't really know how long the average graduate keeps that "first job", but I really like this company and really don't see myself leaving within the next 5 years.

I just wanted to know what certs get you the most money, in case I decide to go to another company or get into consulting later in my career.

The degrees are purely related to my desire to be a professor, but that's later in my career, probably a few years before I retire.

[RobDog888]

If you want to teach then you also need to get teaching degree too.

Some companies pay for testing/self inprovement as related to their job. I have mostly seen MS certs as what an employer will pay for but it may be beneficial to get a couple on your own first. Then let the company pay for the rest as they will give raises some times too but if you have them all before getting hired then there is no raises potentially possible.

[KiwiDexter]

I'd agree with Hack's assessment. The outsourcing is a pendulum, and at some point, it's going to swing back (my opinion is that we are almost to the end of the swing towards outsourcing.)

Besides, the only kind of software development that can be outsourced is generally "sweat shop" style types of coding. The kind that could be done by just about anyone with 2 fingers and can read.

There's a number of problems with outsourcing - especially off-shore - language barriers, time, quality..... I think a lot of organizations are going to find out that while in the short run money was saved, the TCO is going to be greater over the long run.

-tg

Would agree with this. Our company has gone from outsourcing every possible I.T development project to bringing everything back in house, and in most cases rewriting the apps as they are simply woefully badly written and impossible to maintian (lack of documentation etc).

In terms of Masters etc it's one of my job requirements to start an advanced degree next year to be ready to manage project teams in a couple of years time. So education is never wasted, unless you want to stick to coding.