Legitimizing Napster

**Kzin** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:00 PM

We have all discussed how nice it is to never have to pay for music and what's more do a social duty to punish the music industry

Now - it seems the artists want some money from P2P too

.

Given that you can't protect content completely - there are many alternative P2P solutions already out there (albeit without Napster's market penetration) what do people think an effective way of contributing to the artists would be through Napster.

**barrk** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:10 PM

I'm all for it as long as I don't have to pay as much as for my ISP

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:21 PM

Here are the difficulties:

It needs to be on-demand and not pushed or streaming. I want to select the music I want to hear when I want to hear it. This is after all supposed to be a step beyond the radio, not radio in cyberspace
Artist need to get paid. The better an artist is (the more well liked) the more he should get paid. 'Course, they should tour, too.
Once I have a song on file, I am well with in my rights to copy that file. It is unreasonable to introduce something to keep me from making copies, especially since this is a tempermental medium. I'm not going to buy all my music again just because my hard drive crashes. This presents a problem because once I copy the file, I can just mail it to you. That is copyright infringement (in my opinion). But that is not the fault of anyone but me.
I don't want to store my files online, and I don't want to have to call them from an online database everytime I want to hear one. I don't even want you keeping a track of what I buy when. If you want to keep tabs on my taste to build a profile for marketing, then you had best pay me to listen to music. My privacy is more valuable than your music.

I'm sure there are other problems.

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:25 PM

the guy who listens to the radio, never needs to pay, is that like ok?

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
the guy who listens to the radio, never needs to pay, is that like ok?

It is as okay as surfing web pages with banner ads.

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:29 PM

then if everyone did that, i guess it wouldn't, you would have to pay licence or something

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
then if everyone did that, i guess it wouldn't, you would have to pay licence or something

If everyone did what then you guess what wouldn't what?

If everyone didn't listen to music with ads then yes we would have to pay. It is like broadcast and subscription. Broadcast TV is free, it has ads. Cable TV is subsciption based, and is the reason why you should be able to get channels with out ads. But.. lo' and behold... they gave you the ads anyway. What's the public going to do? Not watch?

**Kzin** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Here are the difficulties:

It needs to be on-demand and not pushed or streaming. I want to select the music I want to hear when I want to hear it. This is after all supposed to be a step beyond the radio, not radio in cyberspace

I'm sure there are other problems.

Yep - that is one of Napsters great strengths although on-demand streaming seems to be the way AOL is planning to go.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Here are the difficulties:

Artist need to get paid. The better an artist is (the more well liked) the more he should get paid. 'Course, they should tour, too.

I guess that is for their agents to negotiate. On a personal basis I'm not sure that they should be forced to tour to make money - it cuts off their revenue the second they get sick/old/pregnant etc but that is probably secondary if they can get paid for their music.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Here are the difficulties:

[list]
[*]Once I have a song on file, I am well with in my rights to copy that file. It is unreasonable to introduce something to keep me from making copies, especially since this is a tempermental medium. I'm not going to buy all my music again just because my hard drive crashes. This presents a problem because once I copy the file, I can just mail it to you. That is copyright infringement (in my opinion). But that is not the fault of anyone but me.

If its not copyable I guess it has to cost less and the protection must not hassle the user. All media are tempramental though - audio tapes break, CDs scratch (both have happened to me in the last week

) - most people don't back them up though they just have to buy a new one if the medium is destroyed.

**Kzin** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
the guy who listens to the radio, never needs to pay, is that like ok?

That's fine if he is happy about getting the DJ's choice of music when the DJ likes it with ads and cuts superimposed

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:45 PM

Well, i find it a lot better listening to shoutcasts rather than searching around for mp3's that when you listen to over and over again, get tired of. They don't have add's either

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Kzin
Yep - that is one of Napsters great strengths although on-demand streaming seems to be the way AOL is planning to go.

That will bug me. Since it will be streaming, I have to be online to listen (which since I have a T1... damn... I'm getting married... well, since I have a cable modem that isn't a problem) and I have to eat my bandwidth. Also, they can keep track of what I like. I've already complained about that.

I guess that is for their agents to negotiate. On a personal basis I'm not sure that they should be forced to tour to make money - it cuts off their revenue the second they get sick/old/pregnant etc but that is probably secondary if they can get paid for their music.

Oh, I don't think they should only get paid for touring, but it should be a healthy part of their income (maybe half) because I don't want them to make something and then go into hiding. That is not fair.

If its not copyable I guess it has to cost less and the protection must not hassle the user. All media are tempramental though - audio tapes break, CDs scratch (both have happened to me in the last week

) - most people don't back them up though they just have to buy a new one if the medium is destroyed.

True, but atleast they can make copies if they feel the need, there isn't something that prevents that.

**Kzin** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
Well, i find it a lot better listening to shoutcasts rather than searching around for mp3's that when you listen to over and over again, get tired of. They don't have add's either

Pardon my ignorance but what are Shoutcasts?

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by kedaman
Well, I find it a lot better listening to shoutcasts, instead of searching around for MP3s that one will get tired of listening to over and over again. They don't have ads either.

Who doesn't? MP3s or Shoutcasts? I'm not sure what a Shoutcast is.

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:52 PM

well they broadcast stream mp3's, have a look at
http://www.shoutcast.com/

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:55 PM

no adds between the tracks they play, and theyre categorized well so i can listen to exactly the type of music i want

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 04:59 PM

Ah, they are streaming, not on-demand. There again, I have to consume bandwidth and make selections infront of the marketing group.

By the way, Kedaman, how old are you?

**Kzin** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
That will bug me. Since it will be streaming, I have to be online to listen (which since I have a T1... damn... I'm getting married... well, since I have a cable modem that isn't a problem) and I have to eat my bandwidth.

Yes that certainly is true although presumably at some time (or in some places) always-on connections will be the norm.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Also, they can keep track of what I like. I've already complained about that.

I'm naturally paranoid about that sort of thing too but if there was an advantage to the consumer (e.g. cheaper music) that might offset things for most people.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Oh, I don't think they should only get paid for touring, but it should be a healthy part of their income (maybe half) because I don't want them to make something and then go into hiding. That is not fair.

I guess that depends on the musician and the fans - didn't Mike Oldfield completely fold up and become unproductive for years because he couldn't take the pace of touring - I can think of a couple of other examples just off the cuff

Originally posted by CiberTHuG

True, but at least they can make copies if they feel the need, there isn't something that prevents that.

Aren't DVDs copy protected and it doesn't stress most users out too much

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:01 PM

i am 20, why asking?

i have enough bandwidth

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Kzin
I'm naturally paranoid about that sort of thing too but if there was an advantage to the consumer (e.g. cheaper music) that might offset things for most people.

Been to the grocery store lately? With those MVP or VIC cards? People are already willing to be profiled for marketing. The few of us whom it bothers will just be ignored.

Aren't DVDs copy protected and it doesn't stress most users out too much

Well, we've broken that, and can copy DVDs, though we don't have the technology to burn back to same medium. We can dump it to a hard drive or several CDs.

But again... the mass populace is stupid. And I don't want to make it sound bad but...

AOL is the largest ISP!!! It is by far and away the absolute worst! Ford is still a big selling auto manufactuer. Their cars are the least realiable and have the shortest life expectancy. People sign up for VIC or MVP cards and don't even ask why. People go to a car rental counter (or anywhere) and give the agent their home number when asked. Why? What does the car rental agency need with my home number? Are you saying I can't rent a car if I don't own a phone?

Let me see... there are some others, though some are just as much a lack of marketing as the people's lazines: VHS was an inferior technology to BetaMax, yet VHS is the defacto standard for home entertainment. The Motorola family of RISC processors have been faster in each generation than the compariable Intel CISC processors, yet no one wants a Mac.

Kedaman... your grammatical style (or lack thereof) and preference for Shoutcast is starting to put you in a profile. I could probably start to pick out the music you would like. I was guessing that you were 19.

Now there is nothing wrong with being a profile, everyone is. The problem is... if the music marketing people are going to sample my life just so they can target me with something, then they should pay me for that information.

And the little discount at the grocery store doesn't cut it.

**barrk** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:22 PM

Kedaman is translating to English from Finnish I believe. I think he's doing a fairly good job too!!!!!

**kedaman** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:27 PM

i am, thanks to people here i'm 10 times better of at english than i was when i got my first post count

my mother language is swedish though.

and it's hard to target me with anything at all.

**CiberTHuG** · Apr 11th, 2001, 05:35 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong. Your English is fine. But you don't dwell on the details. That is the important part. I don't think you are loosing anything in the translation, I think you are just not caring to hit the shift key when you say "I". That amount of hubris tells on you.

One could pick apart my posts just as easily.

By the way, your .fi signature gave away where you are from.

**Kzin** · Apr 12th, 2001, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
But again... the mass populace is stupid. And I don't want to make it sound bad but...

My immediate thought is that they just have different priorities . . . so . . .

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
AOL is the largest ISP!!!

. . . so they just want to send e-mail and have a fairly prepackaged experience when they go on-line

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
People sign up for VIC or MVP cards and don't even ask why

Mine gives me 2% off and since I do my grocery shopping on-line I guess they are going to know what I buy anyway

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
People go to a car rental counter (or anywhere) and give the agent their home number when asked. Why?

Well they won't give you a car otherwise

(so they "hold all the cards" - as retailers often do even if we don't know it) - actually last time I was in the states they wouldn't give me a car anyway (wrong sort of VISA card apparently)

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
The Motorola family of RISC processors have been faster in each generation than the compariable Intel CISC processors, yet no one wants a Mac.

Primarily its been the range of software available for the PC, backwards compatibility (who wants a few percent extra processing speed when it means ditching legacy apps and possibly data), the massive range of hardware available because of the ISA (and later PCI bus) and of course the masses of cheap clones.

Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Ford is still a big selling auto manufactuer.

This at least should cheer you up - many people in the UK buy Fords because
they want to buy British

I knew that we could all do with a good laugh.

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