[RESOLVED] Need advice in deploying application

[LauraBrx]

Hi Everybody!!

I'm new here, but joined cos I liked the great atmosphere!!

I need some advice in deploying my VB 6 application. It needs to be run 100% user mode (ie as a limited user) but also requires some dlls which (I think) need to be registered.

It also must work without UAC popping up on Vista

I've heard of Molebox and tried the demo, which seems to work ok. I'm just worried about a) some anti-virus programs detect molebox as a virus (even if you package calc.exe) and b)their support doesn't seem too good

Any help would be greatly received!

Laura
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Edit: Max spending is 150US$

[Al42]

Have you looked at Inno Setup? The support is good (a BBS and a forum here) and the price is US$150 less than your max, unless you pay for downloads.

[LauraBrx]

Thanks for the reply!

I had looked at INNO setup before, but dismissed it due to the fact that it was an installer and couldn't be run as 100% limited user (you need admin permissions to register files etc)

[Taken from the Molebox site] What I need is a Runtime EXE packager. (I think!!)

Laura
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[randem]

What you are talking about is a VM (Virtual Machine) You might want to look at Thinstall. You may not get anythng to run without installation.

[LauraBrx]

Thanks randem, I did see Thinstall on my travels before, but if you check out the pricing...(!)

The only solution at the moment would seem Molebox, so I'm currently downloading all the trial anti-virus programs that I can get my hands on to scan it!

If anyone else has any suggestions I would appreciate them.

Laura
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[randem]

So, why do you need to get around security???

[LauraBrx]

I'm sorry? If you check out the Molebox forums, there are reports that any exe packed with molebox is detected as a virus. I want to know if the same thing happens for my program, or if they've fixed it in the later versions.

[randem]

So, why do you need to get around security???

Still goes unanswered....

[LauraBrx]

What do you mean by security? I don't need it to 'get around' anything, just run as a limited user as it is going to be offered as a download to novice computer users. Novice computer users won't want a popup saying 'this file is suspicious'.

[si_the_geek]

I think that user permissions is the security that randem was referring to - the reason for users having limited permissions is so that they can't accidentally install potentially dangerous software. Due to the quantity of nasty programs out there, this is a good thing.

If somebody doesn't have the rights to install something, and doesn't have access to an admin login, then the chances are that they can't tell what is safe to install anyway (this isn't true for company networks etc, but there are different issues in that case).


If it was possible for your software to bypass the (user permission) security, it would be possible to all software to do it - even the really nasty stuff. Do you want that to happen?

Why are you avoiding the method that most programs use - simply create a normal installation package, and tell the user it needs to be installed by somebody with admin rights?

[LauraBrx]

I think that user permissions is the security that randem was referring to - the reason for users having limited permissions is so that they can't accidentally install potentially dangerous software. Due to the quantity of nasty programs out there, this is a good thing

I quite agree

If somebody doesn't have the rights to install something, and doesn't have access to an admin login, then the chances are that they can't tell what is safe to install anyway (this isn't true for company networks etc, but there are different issues in that case).

Or library computers.

If it was possible for your software to bypass the (user permission) security, it would be possible to all software to do it - even the really nasty stuff. Do you want that to happen?

No, bypassing anything is not my intention.

Why are you avoiding the method that most programs use - simply create a normal installation package, and tell the user it needs to be installed by somebody with admin rights?

Because the program is not meant to be on the computer for long periods of time. It is a run once, close and don't save anything on that computer type program (a booking system if you want to know).

[si_the_geek]

No, bypassing anything is not my intention.

From what you have posted, it sounds as tho it is basically (tho not directly) your intention - you want to avoid registering the DLL's.

If your program requires files that need to be registered, then you have to do that for your program to work.

Because the program is not meant to be on the computer for long periods of time. It is a run once, close and don't save anything on that computer type program (a booking system if you want to know).

That's unusual for a booking system... all the ones I've seen before would be used repeatedly, so installing them would not be a problem.

I know this is a bit too late in the process, but from that it sounds as if you would have been better off developing a web based system (perhaps using ASP) instead.


What sort of booking system is this?

What kind of user base have you got, are they all on the same network?

[LauraBrx]

If your program requires files that need to be registered, then you have to do that for your program to work.

They don't need to be registered if I package through Molebox..

That's unusual for a booking system... all the ones I've seen before would be used repeatedly, so installing them would not be a problem.

This is the second part of a two-part program. The first part sits inside a client's network, and has been installed using WISE.

I know this is a bit too late in the process, but from that it sounds as if you would have been better off developing a web based system (perhaps using ASP) instead.

It was considered, but dismissed as I didn't want to install/use IIS or ASP hosting software on the client's server.

What sort of booking system is this?

It is designed to be used inside the network (installed) and outside via the internet on limited computers.

What kind of user base have you got, are they all on the same network?

They are internally :P

[si_the_geek]

I don't know anything about Molebox, but if you have files that need to be registered, then it is somehow doing that or a complex work-around - either way, it explains why virus scanners don't trust it.

Is there a particular reason that you aren't installing this part of the program along with the first part? It would be much less hassle, and you wouldn't need to have a shortcut on the Start menu etc to it.

For the external computers, the safest (but probably most awkward) option is to log in to them (perhaps remotely) as an admin, and install the program.

I don't understand why you decided against using IIS, as it would be far simpler (for installation and updates etc) than using desktop apps - especially for the remote users.

[LauraBrx]

I don't know anything about Molebox, but if you have files that need to be registered, then it is somehow doing that or a complex work-around - either way, it explains why virus scanners don't trust it.

Never thought of it like that!

Is there a particular reason that you aren't installing this part of the program along with the first part? It would be much less hassle, and you wouldn't need to have a shortcut on the Start menu etc to it.

I can't! These machines are owned by other people such as councils etc. The second part of the program is only so people can make bookings from anywhere without installing anything.

I don't understand why you decided against using IIS, as it would be far simpler (for installation and updates etc) than using desktop apps - especially for the remote users.

The server part of the software is hosted on Windows 2000 which doesn't have IIS installed, as neither the client (or me for that matter) has the money to spend on an OS upgrade!!

[si_the_geek]

I can't! These machines are owned by other people such as councils etc. The second part of the program is only so people can make bookings from anywhere without installing anything.

In that case, you can't have something that needs to be installed - and thus if you want a desktop application, you are unlikely to be able to use a language like VB for it.

The server part of the software is hosted on Windows 2000 which doesn't have IIS installed, as neither the client (or me for that matter) has the money to spend on an OS upgrade!!

Which edition of Windows 2000? The Professional edition includes IIS (and presumably the server editions do too), it just isn't installed as standard - you can use "Add/remove programs" in Control Panel to add it.

[LauraBrx]

In that case, you can't have something that needs to be installed - and thus if you want a desktop application, you are unlikely to be able to use a language like VB for it.

OK. So you think I should redo it in C+ or something?

Which edition of Windows 2000? The Professional edition includes IIS (and presumably the server editions do too), it just isn't installed as standard - you can use "Add/remove programs" in Control Panel to add it.

It's the Professional Edition - it has IIS5 which is the single piece of software that has the most security holes in that I know!

I've been looking further and found something call Side by Side DLL deployment (SxS) what do you know about this and is it applicable to my problem?

Thanks for your continued help!

[si_the_geek]

OK. So you think I should redo it in C+ or something?

If you really want a desktop app, then that would be an option - but you will need to ensure that the dependencies (if any) are pre-installed on all client computers.

For this kind of situation tho, I would not give serious consideration to a desktop app - there are too many hurdles to deal with.

It's the Professional Edition - it has IIS5 which is the single piece of software that has the most security holes in that I know!

There are extra downloads for it that increase the security, such as lockdown tool. Presumably it would be easier to secure IIS than it would be to deal with all of the desktop app issues.

Alternatively you could use something like PHP/Apache instead.

I've been looking further and found something call Side by Side DLL deployment (SxS) what do you know about this and is it applicable to my problem?

I don't know much about it I'm afraid... but I assume that it basically installs files to a different location (but still installs them, so would not help).

[LauraBrx]

OK, thanks everybody, esp. si_the_geek you've helped loads!

Final solution is to rewrite the app as a series of ASP scripts with AJAX.


Laura

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