31 dead in virginia

[nemaroller]

Learning C - Stick to one post.

My views are simple, I live in the Uk where guns are fairly rare. I've read alot about people saying they want to carry guns to defend themselves? Well doesnt this just esculate into I carry a gun you shoot me I shoot you blah blah and then your all dead? It seems a very 'caveman' approach. Prehaps I'm incorect but thats my view.

Also if you have a look at the number of school shootings in the US isnt that because guns are so avalible and carying one is just normal?

What we are seeing is an extreme incident where a person was obviously messed up in the head. But non the less he was able to obtain a couple of guns. Surley having the option for crazy people to get guns isnt the best way?

I offer sympothies for the people involved in this.

Pino

Well, I do not know one person that carries a gun on themselves. Most people in the US do not carry firearms. Even in States where concealed carry is legal, most public government buildings and just about every private business bans guns from their premises. So it's a rather inconvenient self-defence weapon to have while going about one's daily business. There are far more inexpensive and sufficiently effective self-defence weapons to choose from.

The real usefulness of a gun is for self-defence in protecting your home from intruders. If the burglar has a handgun, you will be immediately disadvantaged. That should not be the case and therefore I would never support a law that disadvantaged a homeowner from protecting their property. (publicized case in point: http://dynamic.cnn.com/apps/tp/video.../video.ws.asx? )

The Virgina Tech shooting was a failure in the system. Why this individual's background check came clean when he was sent for mental treatment previously is beyond me. Hopefully, that will be something that will be remediated.

[bgmacaw]

What we are seeing is an extreme incident where a person was obviously messed up in the head. But non the less he was able to obtain a couple of guns. Surley having the option for crazy people to get guns isnt the best way?

From what I've read the results of his court ordered mental health hearing did not qualify him for inclusion in the databases searched for firearm purchase background checks because it did not result in him being committed to a mental hospital involuntarily. I think we'll see an expansion of the coverage of this law to include any kind of court ordered mental health care due to this incident.

Of course, this would only prevent a person bent on such mayhem from obtaining the weapon legally. They could still get their hands on a firearm in various illegal ways ranging from straw purchases made from legitimate dealers to the black market.

[MasterBlaster]

The Virgina Tech shooting was a failure in the system. Why this individual's background check came clean when he was sent for mental treatment previously is beyond me. Hopefully, that will be something that will be remediated.

He came back clean because he was not convicted of any crime. That is the way it should be. He was arrested for stalking and the person that he was allegedly stalking dropped the charges. <-- that was the problem. You can't go and torpedo due process just because someone slipped through the cracks. Any cop and over zealous district attny can arrest someone, that doesn't mean they are nutts or actually comitted a crime.

[Shaggy Hiker]

the ability to kill people doesn't define insanity, a soldier who presses the button on a smart bomb that kills several hundred people is not necessarily insane. I read the opposite SH, that he wasn't ruled insane. what was the reason that he had for killing?

I didn't hear one way or another about sanity, I just heard that he was ruled a threat. That's a pretty anemic ruling, but as others noted, he had committed no crime up to that point.

I have heard a long discussion on the technicalities of VA law regarding this issue. The way it is written, he has to have physically threatened a person before the state is legally allowed to intervene. All he had was disturbing writing, and disturbing behavior. In some states, the laws are written such that this pattern of behavior is sufficient to intervene, but not in VA.

Now, some might say that people should have acted because they had warnings, but under VA law, they could have been held civily, and possibly criminally, liable for most actions. This tied their hands in the abscence of a directly stated threat. Bet that law changes right fast.

[learning c]

I didn't hear one way or another about sanity, I just heard that he was ruled a threat. That's a pretty anemic ruling, but as others noted, he had committed no crime up to that point.

I have heard a long discussion on the technicalities of VA law regarding this issue. The way it is written, he has to have physically threatened a person before the state is legally allowed to intervene. All he had was disturbing writing, and disturbing behavior. In some states, the laws are written such that this pattern of behavior is sufficient to intervene, but not in VA.

Now, some might say that people should have acted because they had warnings, but under VA law, they could have been held civily, and possibly criminally, liable for most actions. This tied their hands in the abscence of a directly stated threat. Bet that law changes right fast.

so if we want to actually learn anything about how to protect the community from such acts in the future, given that he wasn't ruled a threat to himself or the community and not commited involuntarily, we need to find out what he was reacting to; why did he kill 33 people. he left videos, a 25 page document and other material. clearly he wanted to make a point, what was it? only with such evidence can we draw any conclusions regarding his motives and state of mind.

given that the material was posted to the media, it will either be drawn out as long as possible, or if too politically sensitive, banned by the government.

[Valleysboy1978]

Isn't it interesting though that both Switzerland and Norway both have free gun laws similar to that of the US. Yet the rate of deaths by firearms in Switzerland is something like less than 1% and Norway is just over 2%. The US is over 7% (I think).

I'm not entirely convinced that the free gun laws are at fault. In Switzerland it is common for automatic rifles to be carried in cars, yet there are hardly any gun crimes.
I for one would blame the attitude difference to guns between the US and Switzerland. In the US guns are glorified in the mass media of movies and music (especially Rap, R&B and Hip-hop) so it is not really surprising that they are used more in the US to kill innocents

[Valleysboy1978]

As he was a US resident since 8 he was legally entitled to purchase handguns, which he did. There is no way this guy could have been stopped from the beginning.

I for one would question the response of the police. This guy shot two people, went back to his apartment for 2 hours, then proceeded to the other side of the campus to kill another 30.

What in the world were those police doing for two hours!?! If they'd followed this guys movements in reverse from the scene they'd have known he was a resident. They could have then arrested him at his own apartment and saved 30 lives. Instead, the world gets to watch a local cop, running (although as he was way over 300lbs it was more like walking fast) to where the guy was murdering 30 innocent civilians. Heads should roll for the lack of police training and response

[FunkyDexter]

guns are glorified in the mass media of movies and music

One of the things that struck me when I saw the footage he made of himself (and I've only seen a small amount of it) was that this guy seemed to think life was like the movies. He behaved like a wierd combination of 'Persecuted Carrie' and 'Out-For-Justice Rambo'.

That seems to be a fairly common trait in the US. Your generals all wear dark glasses and chew on cigars, half you citizens seem to think they're John Wayne while the other half seem to think they're Tom Hanks and you're president clearly thinks he's the white hatted cowboy in a 50's western.

These are, of course, sweeping generalisations seen through the eye of a liberal Euro-Weenie media so I'm sure they're not accurate but that really is how you guys come across sometimes. Actually, it's often one of your more endearing qualities (though obviously not when it turns into an all out psychosis like it did with this guy).

[Xanith]

I for one would question the response of the police. This guy shot two people, went back to his apartment for 2 hours, then proceeded to the other side of the campus to kill another 30.

What in the world were those police doing for two hours!?! If they'd followed this guys movements in reverse from the scene they'd have known he was a resident. They could have then arrested him at his own apartment and saved 30 lives. Instead, the world gets to watch a local cop, running (although as he was way over 300lbs it was more like walking fast) to where the guy was murdering 30 innocent civilians. Heads should roll for the lack of police training and response

From what I heard the police followed what turned out to be an incorrect lead. They mistakenly surmised that the death of the girl in the dorm house was committed by her boyfriend and they pursued that lead off campus. I have not heard a connection between the girl that died in the dorm and the shooter yet. If it is indeed just a random killing then it would be very hard (if not impossible) for the police to find the shooter in the matter of a few hours. Therefore I don’t think we can blame the police for any kind of lack of response. It’s easy to look back in hindsight after everything has happened but the police can only go on the information they have and then follow the most promising leads first.

X

[Valleysboy1978]

Wasn't it his ex-girlfriend? And the reason he started the rampage was beacuse she dumped him...so he killed both her and her new boyfriend

[Xanith]

Wasn't it his ex-girlfriend? And the reason he started the rampage was beacuse she dumped him...so he killed both her and her new boyfriend

Nope. I think that was originally reported in initial reports but that isnt the case. The latest that I have heard is they are still looking for a link between the girl and the shooter. The guy that was killed was the dorm resident who came to see what was going on. There was no relationship between the guy and girl that got shot in the dorm room, other than the guy was the resident of that dorm. That is why they thought it was possibly the boyfriend of the girl and some domestic thing initially.

X

[Shaggy Hiker]

As he was a US resident since 8 he was legally entitled to purchase handguns, which he did. There is no way this guy could have been stopped from the beginning.

I for one would question the response of the police. This guy shot two people, went back to his apartment for 2 hours, then proceeded to the other side of the campus to kill another 30.

What in the world were those police doing for two hours!?! If they'd followed this guys movements in reverse from the scene they'd have known he was a resident. They could have then arrested him at his own apartment and saved 30 lives. Instead, the world gets to watch a local cop, running (although as he was way over 300lbs it was more like walking fast) to where the guy was murdering 30 innocent civilians. Heads should roll for the lack of police training and response

Xanith is correct, but one other item: From the original reports, the dorm shooter was not identified as being oriental, and I have not yet heard any solid evidence that the dorm shooter was the same guy....other than the fact that the gun was the same. For days, when this was all over the news, the police were very carefully avoiding saying that the two shooters were the same person, which had plenty to do with the dorm witnesses saying the shooter wasn't oriental.

In addition to that, this was the first time in history that a mass murderer took a two hour break to shoot videos of himself before returning to the crime. They were justified in assuming that they should be looking somewhere other than campus.

The police did a fine job, and could only have done better if they had the clarity of hindsight.

[Shaggy Hiker]

so if we want to actually learn anything about how to protect the community from such acts in the future, given that he wasn't ruled a threat to himself or the community and not commited involuntarily

The report I heard was that the magistrate ruled that he was a potential threat to himself and others. I have heard no subsequent report stating otherwise. That simply wasn't direct enough under VA law. They require an immenent threat, not a theoretical one. He made no overt threats, and therefore, in VA he couldn't be touched.

[MasterBlaster]

That seems to be a fairly common trait in the US. Your generals all wear dark glasses and chew on cigars, half you citizens seem to think they're John Wayne while the other half seem to think they're Tom Hanks and you're president clearly thinks he's the white hatted cowboy in a 50's western.

When did our president start thinking?

[nemaroller]

Xanith is correct, but one other item: From the original reports, the dorm shooter was not identified as being oriental, and I have not yet heard any solid evidence that the dorm shooter was the same guy....other than the fact that the gun was the same.

Two murderous incidents on a campus that has had no murders in the last 6 years - on the same day? Probability would seem to favor the same individual.

[learning c]

The report I heard was that the magistrate ruled that he was a potential threat to himself and others. I have heard no subsequent report stating otherwise. That simply wasn't direct enough under VA law. They require an immenent threat, not a theoretical one. He made no overt threats, and therefore, in VA he couldn't be touched.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...-tech-shooting
apparently he was held for one day and was not deemed a danger to the public.

the report quotes him as saying:
"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

who is he referring to? what happened to him to make him feel so persecuted? we need access to the raw information to determine what was really going on in his mind.

[MasterBlaster]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...-tech-shooting
apparently he was held for one day and was not deemed a danger to the public.

the report quotes him as saying:
"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

who is he referring to? what happened to him to make him feel so persecuted? we need access to the raw information to determine what was really going on in his mind.

My guess is he was referring to his classmated seeing as that was who he decided to mow down with bullets.

Typical school shooting. The little guy who is sort of shy and different getts picked on to the point of doing something insane. Go figure, Damn teenagers need to be a lot nicer to each other.

[learning c]

My guess is he was referring to his classmated seeing as that was who he decided to mow down with bullets.

Typical school shooting. The little guy who is sort of shy and different getts picked on to the point of doing something insane. Go figure, Damn teenagers need to be a lot nicer to each other.

well that could well be it , was he responding to bullying?

[davebat]

[url]


We need access to the raw information to determine what was really going on in his mind.

I think they have compiled it all here.

http://www.crazydudesthoughts.com

[Shaggy Hiker]

Two murderous incidents on a campus that has had no murders in the last 6 years - on the same day? Probability would seem to favor the same individual.

Sure does, but the police were not saying that it was the same person for several days, they couldn't place the shooter in the dorm, and the first eye witnesses that came forward identified the shooter as not being asian. Oddly, the events have dropped out of the media I have seen before this got resolved. On the other hand, I have stopped paying attention to the media because other issues have come up, but maybe this has been resolved in the meantime.

[Valleysboy1978]

It is the very nature of the media. They are only interested in current affairs so anything more than a week old is usually discarded, unless it's a particularly slow news day.

Besides, what more is there to say? Whether the guy had reasons or not, the killing of 32 innocent students/teachers was totally unjustified and so he will always be seen as a mass murderer

[nemaroller]

Isn't it interesting though that both Switzerland and Norway both have free gun laws similar to that of the US. Yet the rate of deaths by firearms in Switzerland is something like less than 1% and Norway is just over 2%. The US is over 7% (I think).

I'm not entirely convinced that the free gun laws are at fault. In Switzerland it is common for automatic rifles to be carried in cars, yet there are hardly any gun crimes.
I for one would blame the attitude difference to guns between the US and Switzerland. In the US guns are glorified in the mass media of movies and music (especially Rap, R&B and Hip-hop) so it is not really surprising that they are used more in the US to kill innocents

Definitely rap. The Black death rate is over twice the white and hispanic death rates by firearms. It is for the most part an affliction of black urban youth.

Unfortunately, the far higher absenteeism of black fathers from families seems to be the driving cause.

[MasterBlaster]

Definitely rap. The Black death rate is over twice the white and hispanic death rates by firearms. It is for the most part an affliction of black urban youth.

Unfortunately, the far higher absenteeism of black fathers from families seems to be the driving cause.

That and white guys can't dance, play basketball, or shoot straight.

When you have a group of people who are being raised by people who refuse to take personal responsibility for their own ridiculously stupid actions and use their race as an excuse for such behavior then that is what you get. A bunch of lazy kids who blame everyone under the sun for their self inflicted problems. it's about time people stop and say to themselvs "Wait a second, I the one with the malfunctioning brain".

Hey, I just came up with a brilliant idea, Lets all tie a red rag on our heads and kill people who don't wear red rags on our heads. That is a sure fire way to pay my mortgage and feed my kids.

[vbNeo]

I never got to read this thread all the way through, I just wanted to comment on everything I've read by masterblaster so far:

Don't enter a discussion and start calling people names, saying their opinion is BS - if that's what your God fearing upbringing with loads of spanking brought you, I think I'd rather go for the "sissy" one I had with parents that could control me without turning to physical abuse.

There's a lot of different people and opinions on this forum, and each and every one of them should be respected in their own right - even yours.

[MasterBlaster]

So you know enough about the situation to accuse my parents of abuse, imply that I believe in a god, and state that I don't respect the opinions of others all without reading the thread.

I fear no god or man, my parents did not abuse me and I picked up an m-16 at the age of 17 to fight for the freedom of other people to express their opinions no matter how utterly ridiculous they may be. I think I've earned the right to tell another man that I think his opinion is BS. Just like he has the right to tell me the same about my opinion. Take your PC krap and file it in your krack.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Might as well stir this pot again, since there was another school town shoot out in Moscow Idaho.

This time, however, no less than two armed citizens came rushing to the scene: The first one was shot three times before he even saw a target. The second one was mistaken for a shooter by the police, and spent the rest of the day in custody. The second guy may not actually have been trying to respond to the shooting, he may have just been driving past, and happened to be armed. In any event, the police thought he was connected to the shooter, and took him away.

As for the first guy, he did just what people were wanting at VA Tech: As soon as the shooting started, he grabbed his weapon and headed towards the firing. The first bullet hit lungs, liver, and a kidney, which took him down. He was then shot in the neck and shoulder, and the third bullet hit his leg. He survived all this, though he may never truly recover.

The police asked that people not get involved, as they are just as likely to get shot by the police, who will not be too particular if they see a non-uniformed individual carrying a weapon during a shoot-out.

So now we had a madman on a killing spree, but the armed citizenry got involved....and went 0 for 2.

My point is: Having a gun isn't enough. If you are up against a suicidal killer, odds are good that he'll be MUCH more motivated to shoot you than you will be to shoot him, so you need more than a gun and good intentions: You need luck, as well. You need an opening in which to use the gun, and you need to be able to respond against somebody who definitely will have the initiative. The first guy, in Moscow, never even had a chance.

[MasterBlaster]

They probably should have simply learned how to shoot before they tried to play hero. Your point about "Having a gun isn't enough" is 100% accurate. You have to know how to use it.

[Shaggy Hiker]

He knew how to use it fine, I would guess, but it sounds like he never got a look at the shooter, who had a better position, and had clear targets. One thing about homicidal maniacs: They can pretty much assume that EVERYBODY is a target, whereas police and everybody else have to make sure of who they are shooting at. You NEVER have the initiative in this case. The policeman who was killed in the shootout had the same problem. He probably died while trying to determine what the situation actually was as far as: one shooter or more, where he/they were located, what they were intending.

Never an easy situation, nor would VA Tech have been any easier. So far, with few exceptions (Texas State comes to mind), the shooter has generally had time to shoot themselves before anybody else was able to take control of the situation.

[MasterBlaster]

He knew how to use it fine, I would guess, but it sounds like he never got a look at the shooter, who had a better position, and had clear targets. One thing about homicidal maniacs: They can pretty much assume that EVERYBODY is a target, whereas police and everybody else have to make sure of who they are shooting at. You NEVER have the initiative in this case. The policeman who was killed in the shootout had the same problem. He probably died while trying to determine what the situation actually was as far as: one shooter or more, where he/they were located, what they were intending.

Maybe, I don't know any details of what went down. Sounds like a moron ruinning aimlessly into the middle of someone elses fight without knowing what was going on.

Never an easy situation, nor would VA Tech have been any easier. So far, with few exceptions (Texas State comes to mind), the shooter has generally had time to shoot themselves before anybody else was able to take control of the situation.

Why would that be difficult? It is close quarters combat and I guarentee all that moron was doing was pointing and shooting. It is a simple as drawing your gun, aiming center mass on the guy and squeezing off rounds. Preferably from behind some sort of cover. Hell, even if 5 unarmed guys rushed him head on, he wouldn't be able to kill all 5 before someone brought him down. It takes a healthy man 2 seconds to sprint 20 yards, trust me he is not shooting 5 charging people dead in less than 2 seconds. One person probably, two people tops.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Maybe, I don't know any details of what went down. Sounds like a moron ruinning aimlessly into the middle of someone elses fight without knowing what was going on.

That was pretty much how it souded to me, too. The article said that he saw sparks in front of him where bullets were striking the pavement. Yet he went forward. Generally, it is better to advance when they are shooting somewhere else.

Why would that be difficult? It is close quarters combat and I guarentee all that moron was doing was pointing and shooting. It is a simple as drawing your gun, aiming center mass on the guy and squeezing off rounds.

Sure, but he has already drawn. That guy was pointing and shooting pretty well. All he had to do was aim center mass on you, and squeeze off a couple rounds. That's one step less, so you had best find a way to make sure you have the time to take that one step. We all expect the other guy to die. Of course, if you are armed, you have that option, but you shouldn't assume that it is the best option in all circumstances.

Hell, even if 5 unarmed guys rushed him head on, he wouldn't be able to kill all 5 before someone brought him down. It takes a healthy man 2 seconds to sprint 20 yards, trust me he is not shooting 5 charging people dead in less than 2 seconds. One person probably, two people tops.

The situation almost never happens. That PA flight was one notable exception, and everybody died, but they were going to anyways. If you are one of 5 unarmed people rushing a gunman, he may only be able to shoot 2 if you are all well timed. Figure out the payoff ratio of different strategies, and I think you would have reason to suspect that others in the five will not rush with you. You have to rely on the altruism of four other people, or else you will die for no gain.

On the other hand, I agree that in such a situation, you have to take action, and if you can't get all targets out of danger, then an aggressive stance is the only one with any chance of saving lives. Having a gun would be advantageous, but you have to calculate the value of having a useable gun in that, exceedingly rare, situation, versus the value in all the other instants. It's the calculation I make whenever I consider my long distance pack loads, and a gun has never made the cut. I don't think they would in school, either. You calculate the odds of various types of threats, and allocate your supplies based on dealing with the most likely threats. People have suggested that guns are light. That may be true, but they also deal only with a narrow range of VERY rare threats. Were I to carry that weight, it would have to be in clothing, rather than a gun, if I wanted to maximize my likely advantage. The same risk calculation can be done for schools, and it has been done. Rare situations still arise, but you can't be preparted for absolutely everything, and sometimes people die.

In fact, eventually, we all die, and most of us die from something that could have been prevented had we made different choices.