RIP Saddam Hussein

[Shaggy Hiker]

He'll be remembered for this war more than Kennedy will be remembered for Vietnam (or Truman, who really kicked that one off).

[rory]

Oh, we're better off now?

who's we .. you livin it up in the US anyway ..

[rory]

now you can watch the video ..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,240257,00.html

[grilkip]

Great, let us all get a taste of his blood.

[kregg]

Great, let us all get a taste of his blood.

I hope you realise I'm vegetarian...

[grilkip]

I hope you realise I'm vegetarian...

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[litlewiki]

[litlewiki]

I hope you realise I'm vegetarian...

Non vegetarians don't drink blood . .They relish the meat.

[Shaggy Hiker]

who's we .. you livin it up in the US anyway ..

Quit feelin' so sorry for yourself. Life's too short for that. There are plenty of homeless folks in the US. There are plenty of people living sordid, unhappy, squalid lives here. You don't get handed anything. Anybody who thinks welfare, or other assistance living is a great deal is welcome to try it, as far as I'm concerned. They'll leave the roles as quick as they can, or else they probably would end up there anyways.

You aren't the only one who has ever had it tough, and those of us who are "livin' it up in the US" are doing so only with effort.

[rory]

Quit feelin' so sorry for yourself. Life's too short for that. There are plenty of homeless folks in the US. There are plenty of people living sordid, unhappy, squalid lives here. You don't get handed anything. Anybody who thinks welfare, or other assistance living is a great deal is welcome to try it, as far as I'm concerned. They'll leave the roles as quick as they can, or else they probably would end up there anyways.

You aren't the only one who has ever had it tough, and those of us who are "livin' it up in the US" are doing so only with effort.

im not feeling sorry

you still in the US .. unless you dont like it there or something?

[grilkip]

I wish I was living in a 3rd world country, it would award me with so much more perspective.

[litlewiki]

I have no complaints.

[mendhak]

Oh, we're better off now?

Ok, I'll bite, how are we better off? How was this execution of the war superior to what happened in 92?

Which brings me back to the question I've been asking all along: What is an attainable outcome to the current situation that could be considered a victory for the US? What will it look like? How will we know that it has been achieved?

Frankly, I have read a few attempts to come up with an answer to that question, and they all rely on "then suddenly a miracle happens." I am beginning to believe that no plausible, attainable, outcome to the current situation will be better than the situation pre-invasion. If that is the case, then the US has lost, and it's just a question of how long we drag it out before admitting it.

That sounds like "cut and run", and it is. Despite being a slogan, the "cut" part is short for "cut your losses", and is the only rational answer when the ONLY alternative is to take bigger losses with no possible gain.

I never thought we should have gotten into Iraq, but now that we are there, I think we should not leave until we have attained the best result that is attainable. Right now, I'm leaning towards leaving now, because, though it will be a disaster, there is no alternative that is likely to produce a better result.

As for Saddam, I find it odd that as of this morning, the media couldn't and wouldn't say that his death was confirmed. All I heard was that "a body was shown which was reported to be that of Saddam..." That's an awful lot of hedging. Are we not sure?

Allow me to bite too. I may agree with you, but I am going to play devil's advocate here (or according to Chavez, Bush's advocate ), and attempt to say why invading Iraq did have its benefits too.

The reason I think so is, this war was costly. Nobody is stupid enough to make an investment that large if there isn't going to be a return on the investment. They had to evaluate options and they must have known that there would be some benefit to this move.

Regional stability. Iraq is no longer a regional power. Look at all the other countries around it. Iran is the only remaining 'power' there. And Israel. All the other countries are nothing but petty entities that play with oil. Saddam gone, Iraq embroiled in civil war, the playing field has gone down.

Oil. You have to keep in mind, that in about 100 years from now, when the world's oil supplies have run out and nobody has done anything about it but will instead spend time bickering and laying the blame on previous administrations, the US's hold over the Middle East will ensure that their oil reserves last longer, so that they can spend time in developing a solution that would enable their transition from fossil fuels to another source to keep the country running. Remember, oil is everything. When it runs out, there will be wars between nations just for oil. By gaining a stronghold in the region, they ensure the future of a few generations down the line.


OK, that's what I can come up with for now.

[Shaggy Hiker]

The reason I think so is, this war was costly. Nobody is stupid enough to make an investment that large if there isn't going to be a return on the investment. They had to evaluate options and they must have known that there would be some benefit to this move.

History is filled with examples of governments undertaking massive, definitive action, which was directly in opposition to their own best interests. Saying, in effect, "nobody could be stupid enough to have...." Well, that may be true for an individual, but it is certainly not true for a group. Groups have no problem being stupid.

[MasterBlaster]

Oh, we're better off now?

Ok, I'll bite, how are we better off? How was this execution of the war superior to what happened in 92?

We have permenant US military bases on the east and west of Iran. That is how were bettter off. After 92 we did not. Think Germany after WWII. The US still has permenant military installations there. They came in quite handy during the cold war. The US Military will be in Iraq and Askrackastan for the next 30+ years.

I would consider that a victory.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Nice country name there, MB. Took me a moment to pronounce it correctly. I doubt we'll remain in those bases, though. Perhaps Iraq, but not the other. We're already pulling back from there. Frankly, I don't think we'll remain in Iraq, either. Eventually, someone will wonder "what's the point?" We have had a presence over there in SA, and other smaller places for decades, so we don't really lose anything by not being in Iraq (this assumes that the current situation doesn't improve).

[Xanith]

The US has pulled out of Saudi Arabia. I do believe the US still has bases inside of Kuwait however.

X

[FunkyDexter]

Perhaps Iraq, but not the other.

Oddly enough, us Limeys seem to be going the other way. I reckon we'll pull out of Iraq but stay in Afghanistan - the argument seems to be 'we can win one but not both' and Afghanistan seems to be an easier sell politically at the moment If you guys are going the other way then all we'll do is shuffle

[MasterBlaster]

....Eventually, someone will wonder "what's the point?" We have had a presence over there in SA, and other smaller places for decades, so we don't really lose anything by not being in Iraq (this assumes that the current situation doesn't improve).

The point would be runways with open airspace all the way to Iran from all directions. Weather it is publicly annonced in the media or not, US/UK bombers will most likley be parked at the brand new airforce bases the US built in both countries until either we bomb Iran or Iran's government falls, whatever happens first. Not to mention that neither Iraq or the afghans have a military to defend themselvs and likley won't for a long time.

[MasterBlaster]

Looks like they just arrested the guy who took the cell phone video of the hanging. Any one watched it yet?

[Shaggy Hiker]

Oddly enough, us Limeys seem to be going the other way. I reckon we'll pull out of Iraq but stay in Afghanistan - the argument seems to be 'we can win one but not both' and Afghanistan seems to be an easier sell politically at the moment If you guys are going the other way then all we'll do is shuffle

Nah, you guys just want a rematch

MB-I saw the video that ended when the noose was put around his neck. Can't understand a word anyone is saying. I have heard audio versions of the last few seconds up to the time the lever is pulled, and it doesn't match the video I saw, so it seems that after the video ended, the whole group stood around jawing at each other for some length of time before getting on with it. The video was kind of routine, almost dull.

I doubt the US will ever bomb Iran. I've been wrong before, but from everything I have heard, it would be a pretty stupid move.....oh wait, I guess that means we should be starting up any day now. The bottom line of it all is that Iran (which is MUCH larger than Iraq), can't be easily deterred with minor bombing. Hit specific facilities, and it will simply show them where the weak spots are. Since they easily have the means, they would only need to re-build those facilities in hardened locations (underground), and we'd end up with a distinctly negative change, for the marginal benefit of a few years delay at most. Equipment is cheap and easy to replace, it's the knowledge that is hard to gain, and VERY hard to stamp out.

Thus, simply bombing would have no discernable positive result, except to prove to the vast majority of the Iranian population that they really do need nukes, and that the US really is a real and imminent threat. We can't very well expect this country to rally behind the troops in dealing with a clear and present danger, and assume that another country when faced with a clear and present danger will instead immediately throw out their government and cower. It won't happen, and we shouldn't count on it.

[demotivater]

Looks like they just arrested the guy who took the cell phone video of the hanging. Any one watched it yet?

Yea. It was really weird to watch. On one hand, you hate the guy, on the other hand, it's somebody getting executed, which is contrary to most instincts. They were really screwing with him while getting ready to drop him. He was pissed and started preaching back to them, then right in the middle of him going on about something he dropped through the floor.

[MasterBlaster]

I doubt the US will ever bomb Iran. I've been wrong before, but from everything I have heard, it would be a pretty stupid move.....oh wait, I guess that means we should be starting up any day now. The bottom line of it all is that Iran (which is MUCH larger than Iraq), can't be easily deterred with minor bombing. Hit specific facilities, and it will simply show them where the weak spots are. Since they easily have the means, they would only need to re-build those facilities in hardened locations (underground), and we'd end up with a distinctly negative change, for the marginal benefit of a few years delay at most. Equipment is cheap and easy to replace, it's the knowledge that is hard to gain, and VERY hard to stamp out.

Thus, simply bombing would have no discernable positive result, except to prove to the vast majority of the Iranian population that they really do need nukes, and that the US really is a real and imminent threat. We can't very well expect this country to rally behind the troops in dealing with a clear and present danger, and assume that another country when faced with a clear and present danger will instead immediately throw out their government and cower. It won't happen, and we shouldn't count on it.

Yeah, "simply" bombing would probably be a waste of time. I was thinking more along the cold war lines with B1's and B2's sitting on both sides of Iran loaded with nukes, daisy cutters, and bunker busters. Since it looks like the UN is going to drop the ball again and Iran will get nukes, It may not be a bad idea to assure them that if they ever use one they would only have a few minutes before their entire country is glowing. We already wasted billions of dollars and thousands of troops to get the bases, I doubt the military would be very willing to simply abandon them. Espically with the president of Iran threatnin to wipe us offf the face of the planet.

[gavio]

We showed only that we're the same as he was... sad, but true.

[MasterBlaster]

We showed only that we're the same as he was... sad, but true.

We? I don't know about you, but I've never gutted any infidels with a dull knife or gased women and children.

[yrwyddfa]

We? I don't know about you, but I've never gutted any infidels with a dull knife or gased women and children.

A little look at the many horrors the 'allies' have been up to for the last 30 years might change your mind a little.

Ostrich head sand in*

*rearrange as necessary

[MasterBlaster]

A little look at the many horrors the 'allies' have been up to for the last 30 years might change your mind a little.

Ostrich head sand in*

*rearrange as necessary

Like curing hundreds of previously deadly disesases, or building water purification plants for stupid people who haven't figured out you're not supposed to take a dump in the river you drink out of, or extending peoples life expectancy by 10 - 20 years, or shippinng billions of pounds of wheat and rice to people who choose to live in deserts, or cleaning up hazmat sites created during the industrial revolution, or a little pill that lets old people have sex, or sattelites in space that can track drastic weather changes and have saved millions of lives and most importantly, a network of computers that lets idiots like us spout half truth and bullshet across continents for entertainment?

Like I said, I haven't gutted anyone for being an infedel recently.

[System_Error]

We showed only that we're the same as he was... sad, but true.

Wow. Who's this we? I don't remember drilling a hole through anyones head.

So, if *we* are so bad, have you fled the country yet? Why don't you go over to Iran or something. They aren't as bad as the US from your stand point, and would treat you very nicely

[yrwyddfa]

Like curing hundreds of previously deadly disesases, or building water purification plants for stupid people who haven't figured out you're not supposed to take a dump in the river you drink out of, or extending peoples life expectancy by 10 - 20 years, or shippinng billions of pounds of wheat and rice to people who choose to live in deserts, or cleaning up hazmat sites created during the industrial revolution, or a little pill that lets old people have sex, or sattelites in space that can track drastic weather changes and have saved millions of lives and most importantly, a network of computers that lets idiots like us spout half truth and bullshet across continents for entertainment?

Like I said, I haven't gutted anyone for being an infedel recently.

Slight problem with your context there, mate. You are quite happy to spout out the great advances that have happened over the last 100, or so years - of which I'm quite sure the only part you've played is getting your IRS returns in on time, but won't take the responsibility of playing your part in the ongoing atrocities of which, as a citizen of a democratic country, your vote (or lack of it) along with everyone else has helped put such 'policies' in a position of power and authority.

As I said . . .

Ostrich head sand in*

*rearrange as necessary

[yrwyddfa]

[QUOTE=System_Error]Wow. Who's this we? I don't remember drilling a hole through anyones head.QUOTE] No, you probably haven't; but you've put people in power who are quite happy to undergo process such as 'special rendition' . . . .

[MasterBlaster]

Slight problem with your context there, mate. You are quite happy to spout out the great advances that have happened over the last 100, or so years - of which I'm quite sure the only part you've played is getting your IRS returns in on time, but won't take the responsibility of playing your part in the ongoing atrocities of which, as a citizen of a democratic country, your vote (or lack of it) along with everyone else has helped put such 'policies' in a position of power and authority.

As I said . . .

Ostrich head sand in*

*rearrange as necessary

F you buddy, I'll guarentee I've spent more personal funds and time just this year on some of those issues I mentioned than your lame arse ever will over your entire life. That is not counting the tax money I redirect through deductions to charitys that I support simply to keep my hard earned dollars out of the hands of my government. And on the subject of my government, I don't ever remember my government raping my wife, gutting my children and beheading my parents because I publicly said they were doing a krappy job. If you feel that Iraq is a better blace to live than the US or UK, Then Why don't you take your sorry arse over there.

[mendhak]

Good news everyone, charges against Saddam have been dropped! (Pun unintended, I am sure)

[Ex-FB]

I don't think anyone is saying that they think Iraq is a better place to live than the UK/US (I mean, if I went to live in Iraq I'd probably be picked up by US forces and tortured as a "insurgent"..... wouldn't I? Let's face it, I'd match their strict "criteria" for extraordinary rendition etc.).

It is kinda strange that a number of people in this thread who believe that disagreeing with their government means they should leave the country.... that's not what democracy is about.

But on the other hand, I also disagree that the people who voted Bush into power can be held responsible for torture etc. I would hate to live in such a simple world where everything was black and white and guilt by association was sufficient evidence. If I employ a man to be my bodyguard, and that guy goes out and murders someone. I am not guilty of murder. I don't think that you can call 50% of Americans torturers because they voted for Bush. That is not a fair representation of the many decent people down there.

Well, now that I've disagreed with almost every single person in this thread....

[Ex-FB]

P.S. Wasn't upset to see Saddam hang, but would rather he
a ) Wallowed in a small cage for the rest of his long life being knawed on by disease ridden rats
or
b ) Committed "suicide" with the aid of a few guards.....

I couldn't care less about his personal feelings (though I do think that killing him was the easy option out for him - given the alternatives) on the gallows. But I am curious as to what his execution actually gained us. It is difficult to see it as anything other than revenge (which to be honest is a fine motive as far as I'm concerned). That's not going to help matters.

What other reason would there be to hang him? It's not like it's going to be a detterant to other world dictators is it? In fact, quite the opposite, we've just proven that they have to stay in power at all costs, otherwise their people will lynch them.

Now, we have removed a rallying point from the pro-Saddam camp (which is not the same as the anti-US camp), but have unfortunately portrayed ourselves as not to disimilair to the animals who ruled Iraq under Saddam.

It's a difficult one to judge, and I suspect we will have to wait a few years to see if it was the right move or not. Hopefully it was.

[MasterBlaster]

It is kinda strange that a number of people in this thread who believe that disagreeing with their government means they should leave the country.... that's not what democracy is about.

And that is why comparing the US government to the former Iraqi government is so far off base it is ridiculous to even consider. I believe I even stated that I have no faith in my government and keep as many of my tax dollars as legally possible out of their hands. It is our basic freedom to disagree with our government and that seperates us from Saddam and the like. It is my opinion if someone doesn't want that freedom then get the hell out of my country before you loose it for the rest of us..

[Suzzi]

who's we .. you livin it up in the US anyway ..

Funny, but most people I know would love to be livin' in the Bahamas. One man's meat is another man's posion I suppose.

[yrwyddfa]

And on the subject of my government, I don't ever remember my government raping my wife, gutting my children and beheading my parents because I publicly said they were doing a krappy job.

But you are still a citizen of country that holds special rendition as a legal practice. As a citizen you bear some of that responsibility. If you don't then it's not democracy, I'm afraid.

If you feel that Iraq is a better blace to live than the US or UK, Then Why don't you take your sorry arse over there.

Did I say that? Did I imply that? Did I even mention Iraq?

I simply point out that your use of 'we' and 'I' is so selective that it might as well be mutually exclusive.

'We' as in the Western World have given so much to the progress and science (I do NOT dispute that the Western World has progresed the human race a great deal - in particular with the efforts from the US) but when it comes to 'We' being those that drag unconvicted persons across countries and torture them, you resort to 'I' have never done it. When we talk of 'we' travelling half-way round the world and then imprison foreigners without trial or explanation for years on end, then you resort to 'I' have never done that.

It's inconsistent language, behaviour, and it's bloody typical. Have it one way or the other.

[FunkyDexter]

It is our basic freedom to disagree with our government and that seperates us from Saddam and the like. It is my opinion if someone doesn't want that freedom then get the hell out of my country before you loose it for the rest of us

Errm, how exactly do you reconcile those two statements. If your opinion is that poeple shouldn't be allowed to disagree - in a country where they are allowed to - aren't you the one disagreeing? And since your opinion is that those who disagree should move to Iraq doesn't that predicate that you should, perhaps, move to Iraq, where you will no longer be allowed to disagree.

Democracy is meaningless without dissent. Our right to dissent is being erroded at a terrifying rate on this side of the pond at the moment and I get the impression the same's true over there too. I'm alarmed how gleefully some of us are skipping toward an entirely conformist (and therefore undemocratic society) society.

[crptcblade]

Debating is for idiots. Anyone care to disagree?

[FunkyDexter]

Anyone care to disagree?

No