Did the Holocaust really happen?

[mendhak]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/11/news/iran.php

Coming soon... "Horizons: Is the Earth really round?"

[crptcblade]

If it didn't then I shot down that German plane for nothing.

[kleinma]

wonder if Mel Gibson is a guest speaker??

[visualAd]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/11/news/iran.php

Coming soon... "Horizons: Is the Earth really round?"

Its obvious really. The 6 million Jews all went on a package holiday Hiroshima sometime in August 1945. No one knows what happened to them, but they never came back.

[Ex-FB]

In fairness, they are just exhibiting free speech. (Okay, I know it's not really free speech when you only get to talk if the government is in agreement), but still we print cartoons of Mohammed and use the catch-all of our freedom to discuss anything we want, yet in many western countries, free speech doesn't really exist if you cannot deny that the holecaust really happened without being condemed for it.

I would imaging they are doing this so that they can illicit an outraged response from the west, so that they can in turn show us as being hipocritical about our printing of the Mohammed cartoons. The best thing to do would be to ignore it, unfortunately the angry "downtrodden" of the world have started shouting out their outrage and given the Iranian government exactly the amunition they wanted.

Hell, if people want to say that the holecaust didn't happen, then we should let them, if people want to say that blacks aren't as smart as whites, or that hispanics are criminally inclined, or that gays are all child molesters, or that people with blue eyes are more likely to steal than those with browns, then we should allow everyone to voice their opinion. Of course, we will judge those people, and invariably laugh at them, but we should allow them to say it.

I do get annoyed when people play the Jewish/Race card whenever anything adverse happens to them.

Wasn't their a story yesterday about some Rabbi demanding that an airport put up a Menorah (sp?) because they had Christmas trees up? And even threatening legal action over it. These people unfortunately proliferate the bigots and racists in the world by giving them examples, by which their entire people are judged. But I am meandering off course. My point in raising this is that we have become too sensitive to the views of some people (in my opnion) while actively ignoring the views of another group of people. Either we treat everyone the same, or we admit that we are bigots. We cannot have it both ways.

* Note: I actually don't believe we should have freedom of speech. I draw the line at incitement to violence/crime.

[MasterBlaster]

Wasn't their a story yesterday about some Rabbi demanding that an airport put up a Menorah (sp?) because they had Christmas trees up? And even threatening legal action over it. These people unfortunately proliferate the bigots and racists in the world by giving them examples, by which their entire people are judged. But I am meandering off course. My point in raising this is that we have become too sensitive to the views of some people (in my opnion) while actively ignoring the views of another group of people. Either we treat everyone the same, or we admit that we are bigots. We cannot have it both ways.

* Note: I actually don't believe we should have freedom of speech. I draw the line at incitement to violence/crime.

Yeah, that was Seattle's Sea-Tac Airport. Apparently the jew(can i say Jew anymore?) re-offended the christians so the trees were put back up this morning. Ahhh the land of PC fruits and nuts(organic of course).

[kleinma]

How come when a Danish newspaper printed a comic with mohammed in it, everyone turned and blamed the United States???

The only 2 times I "saw" mohammed in a cartoon in the US was family guy, and south park, and BOTH times it was edited out by censors..

[Ex-FB]

How come when a Danish newspaper printed a comic with mohammed in it, everyone turned and blamed the United States???

The only 2 times I "saw" mohammed in a cartoon in the US was family guy, and south park, and BOTH times it was edited out by censors..

Yeah. The TV showed all these muslims burning american flags etc...... and the US had nothing to do with it. I thought that rather odd myself.....

Of course, it means the rest of the world has carte blanche to harass the Muslims, and the miltants will just blame the Americans for some reason or other.

[grilkip]

Jesus was black.

[DeadEyes]

Yeah. The TV showed all these muslim burning american flags etc...... and the US had nothing to do with it. I thought that rather odd myself.....

probably library footage.

Camera Man: "we need to get shots of muslims protesting the cartoons."
Editor: "I'm not paying for your flight, go to the archive and get something from the time we bombed that wedding". "They're always complaining no one will know the difference."

[disruptivehair]

Not to diminish what happened to Jewish people during the Holocaust, but there were approximately 10-12 million victims of the Holocaust, 5-6 million of which were Jewish. The rest were:

* Romany gypsies (per capita the hardest-hit of the persecuted groups)
* Homosexuals
* Physically disabled people
* Mentally retarded people
* Mentally ill people
* Political dissidents
* Slavic people
* Catholics
* Atheists
* Anyone else they didn't like

Members of my family...who weren't Jewish...were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis, and I'm tired of them being left out. The Holocaust is not an exclusively Jewish tragedy.

[mendhak]

Not to diminish what happened to Jewish people during the Holocaust, but there were approximately 10-12 million victims of the Holocaust, 5-6 million of which were Jewish. The rest were:

* Romany gypsies (per capita the hardest-hit of the persecuted groups)
* Homosexuals
* Physically disabled people
* Mentally retarded people
* Mentally ill people
* Political dissidents
* Slavic people
* Catholics
* Atheists
* Anyone else they didn't like

Members of my family...who weren't Jewish...were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis, and I'm tired of them being left out. The Holocaust is not an exclusively Jewish tragedy.

I was aware of that too. But it's all about marketing.

[oceanebelle]

Ku Klux Klan = KKK? Terrorist something? or not?

[visualAd]

Not to diminish what happened to Jewish people during the Holocaust, but there were approximately 10-12 million victims of the Holocaust, 5-6 million of which were Jewish. The rest were:

* Romany gypsies (per capita the hardest-hit of the persecuted groups)
* Homosexuals
* Physically disabled people
* Mentally retarded people
* Mentally ill people
* Political dissidents
* Slavic people
* Catholics
* Atheists
* Anyone else they didn't like

Members of my family...who weren't Jewish...were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis, and I'm tired of them being left out. The Holocaust is not an exclusively Jewish tragedy.

Which group did your family fall into?

[mendhak]

"Americans living in the UK"

[Ex-FB]

Not to diminish what happened to Jewish people during the Holocaust, but there were approximately 10-12 million victims of the Holocaust, 5-6 million of which were Jewish. The rest were:

......

Members of my family...who weren't Jewish...were slaughtered at the hands of the Nazis, and I'm tired of them being left out. The Holocaust is not an exclusively Jewish tragedy.

I'm sorry to hear that. In Europe I think that it is fairly well understood that their were many victims of World War II (both as part of the holocaust and just as victims of war). The final death toll was 50 to 60 million people, which is shocking for just 5 years of fighting. I find it strange that anybody would concentrate on specifically just the Jews as victims, yet unfortunately that is often the impression I get in North America. As mendhak pointed out (somewhat tounge in cheek - yet still correctly), it's all about marketing.

[demotivater]

You're not allowed to say anything about Jews that would diminish their "victim" status. That would get you branded an anti semite immediately.

[kleinma]

people are just people, regardless of where they "think" they came from or are going...

religous belief causes a lot more harm than good if you ask me.. jew, catholic, muslim, whatever...

[disruptivehair]

Which group did your family fall into?

They were Polish.

[mendhak]

News analysis on the conference:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/13/news/iran.php

[litlewiki]

...said Ahmad Shirzad, a reformist politician and former member of Parliament. "First, how much does this solve the problems our people are faced with?

Nice point.

[FunkyDexter]

Jesus was black

...and so was her boyfreind.

[FunkyDexter]

In Europe I think that it is fairly well understood that their were many victims of World War II (both as part of the holocaust and just as victims of war). ... I find it strange that anybody would concentrate on specifically just the Jews as victims

I agree that it's strange we put the Jews above other victims of the holocaust but I'm not really surprised we separate victims of the holocaust from other victims of the war (ie civilians caught in the crossfire and soldiers killed in action). There are always victims of war but the cold and deliberate extermination of such a large number of people for no strategic benefit (although I guess you could argue there was a political benefit) was quite shocking. It really wasn't anything new though, us Brits pursued similar policies (though not to the same extent) in Africa and Asia as recently as the 18th century. In fact Churchill served in a war where the British pretty much invented the concentration camp (the Boer War). We weren't actually exterminating people in that one but the Boers were dying in droves to to the appalling conditions - which included deliberate starvation.

It's worth bearing in mind that the only countries where denying the holocaust is actually illegal (as far as I know) are Germany and Austria and those laws weren't introduced to protect Jewish sensibilities. They were introduced because there was a very real chance that these countries would slide back into Nazi ways if politicians were allowed to use this so called 'conspiracy' as a rallying call. There was still alot of residual anti-semiticism/romanism/polism etc in Germany after the war. In fact, I get the impression from my (admittedly few) German freinds that there still is. And germany does still seem to have more than it's fair share of far right groups. I think it's probably about time the holocaust denial laws were dropped (along with the ones that ban Nazi symbols like the swastika) but they should be dropped with great caution... just in case.

[Ex-FB]

Yeah, I agree. I remember when the game "Battlefield 1942" came out. There was a special German release which didn't have any Swastika's on the German vehicles. It must make teaching history very difficult....

Just as Soviet leaders used to invite Americans who suffered racial or political discrimination to Moscow to embarrass Washington, Ahmadinejad enjoys pointing out that countries like Germany, France and Austria claim to champion free debate yet make Holocaust denial illegal.

And unfortunately, it shows us up to be hipocrits.

Coupled with recent evidence of torture it is difficult for the west to claim any moral high ground these days We can't brag about freedom of speech, we can't brag about human rights, we can't brag about our democracy (I struggle to find any honest politicans) at what stage did we start to compromise our beliefs, and all the things we fought for.

[litlewiki]

...along with the ones that ban Nazi symbols like the swastika

It is sad to see the swastika being referred to as a symbol of tyranny but then the Nazis are to blame!

[Ex-FB]

Yeah, I watched a show a few years back about some guy trying to "reclaim the Swatika" by having tatooed on his body etc. Wasn't it a pagan symbol for love or some such. Unfortunately, I thought/think he is fighting a losing battle. It is so prevelant during Hitlers televised speeches, that it will always be associated with him.

[mendhak]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[Shaggy Hiker]

Denying the holocaust isn't necessarily a racial issue in the Middle East. Instead, it could be a purely pragmatic political position for some countries. Consider that the ruler of a country with many internal problems and potential discords would naturally look for some opponent to rally the people against. This is perhaps the most common technique used to create cohesion in a group which might otherwise not work in unison. It extends far beyond politics.

The state of Israel is the opponent chosen by Iran, as well as plenty of other countries. However, Israel is a problematic opponent if it is recognized as a country. Since the rational for the creation of Israel was the injustice of the holocaust, then denying the holocaust is a pragmatic step to denying the right of Israel to exist.

We shouldn't forget that we are looking at actions of others through the lens of our own beliefs. It is entirely possible that the rationale behind this was more anti-Israel rather than anti-Jew, and was a position only held because of the realities of internal stresses within the country.

[FishGuy]

I understand the many reasons different parties have for denying that it happened. I fail to understand how they can deny it happened. What are the issues for debate, surely there is that much evidence that the fact is undeniable?

[zaza]

People who want to believe conspiracy theories will believe anything you tell them that fits their ideas. To suggest that it is solely about the weight of evidence implies that many of these people are thinking rationally and with an open mind, which is clearly not the case.

At present, there are so many people who want to think bad things about the US and Israel that they'd believe that the Second World War was a Zionist conspiracy to persuade the Allies to set up the nation of Israel in the aftermath if you told them it was true.

Perhaps controversially, it seems to me that there are so many whinging Islamic types around at the moment who would rather lay their problems at the feet of the Great Satan and Islamophobic Westerners than accept personal responsibility (across the world, not just in the Holy Lands) that peace in the Middle East is looking as far away as ever.

Mind you, let's not use this argument as an excuse to absolve us of our portion of responsibility, nor of Israel's. But there are always two sides to an argument, and solving it requires both to make compromises. It just depends on how reasonable we're willing to be over these things, and it often seems that too many people make unreasonable demands, then cite the other side as the excuse for the breakdown.

[Conny3]

I think it's probably about time the holocaust denial laws were dropped (along with the ones that ban Nazi symbols like the swastika)

A couple of month ago exactly this ban made waves here in Germany. Don't worry it weren't the Nazis who were resposible for the commotion, but the exact opposite. Stronger left-inclined People, who are against the Nazi, often wear a crossed-out swastika. But as it's still a swastika, some guy, who sold them, was arrested because of it. And of course, you are not allowed to wear it.
As a consequence a politician reported herself to the police...

Appearently when you're wearing it, you are advertizing the facism. And of course everybody knows, that a crossed-out cigarette symbol means your'e advertizing smoking and it should be permitted to put them up...

Now, you have to keep in mind, that the Soccer World Cup organizers also used this crossed-out swastika...

[mendhak]

FIFA? Show me, please.

[Conny3]

Appearently it was in the "Fan Guide" Brochure and on FiFa Posters.

"Strangely" links were you actually can see it, are very sparse...
and useable english websites are virtually non existent.

The only pic I've found is here:

http://www.projektwerkstatt.de/antirepression/justiz/nazizeichen_verbot.html

[Shaggy Hiker]

So saying the thing is illegal, and saying not the thing is illegal. Therefore, it seems that not saying the thing should also be illegal.

The police are on their way....ALL of you!