VB Fundamentals

[smUX]

I am thinking about writing a tutorial for the *fundamentals* of programming in VB (focusing firstly on BASIC fundamentals then adding in VB functionality to it...briefly describing the advanced stuff in VB like webbrowser, inet etc)...but what do people think the fundamentals are? I guess being able to understand how variables work is one, understanding the types of variables, creating functions, the different types of loops, string manipulation...and a few others, but I'd like to see other people's suggestions on what should be included :-)

[Al42]

I am thinking about writing a tutorial for the *fundamentals* of programming in VB (focusing firstly on BASIC fundamentals then adding in VB functionality to it...briefly describing the advanced stuff in VB like webbrowser, inet etc)...but what do people think the fundamentals are? I guess being able to understand how variables work is one, understanding the types of variables, creating functions, the different types of loops, string manipulation.

That's all programming, not BASIC. It all applies to Pascal, C, COBOL, etc.

Not that the fundamentals of programming is bad - but maybe a first part on the fundamentals of programming, then a part on BASIC - how all those 'programming things' are implemented in BASIC, then a VB part - forms, controls, etc.

[gavio]

Al's right... you can't learn to programme in a certain language... you need to understand the logic on which programming stands... input/output (more for console app's), data (variables; data types are pretty much the same in all languages)... etc...

[smUX]

Although it focuses primarily on Visual Basic 6 (seeing as the more advanced stuff will be VB based, it'll be useless to people who program in PASCAL/FORTRAN/C/Java etc) ...as Gavio says, it's the logic behind what this does, how this affects that, how to achieve that by doing this, etc...computer programming logic is language inspecific (Hell, I learned most of what I know in VB by programming in QBasic...that's why I have a pretty strong ground in the non-graphical aspects of programming :-)) and what I am trying to achieve is to build a person's programming logic with a series of tutorials that should build this aspect in them without bogging them down with the unimportant information (although I understand what *I* think of as unimportant might be thought of as important to other people).

There's some areas I am weak in that I might be asking for other people to help with when it comes to some of the intermediate/advanced stuff in VB...but I'll work on that when the time comes! Let's see how the fundamentals go first...I've a track record for starting things and never fini...(just joking :-P)...finishing them.

Oh, and I'll have a codebank of functions people can use in their programs too, possibly...something I already considered doing and also something I know Static already has in program form (so I might link to that too :-P)

[smUX]

I was thinking about this, and felt I needed to repeat something a little clearer: The *fundamental* aspect of the tutorials will not be language specific insomuch as most of it can be used in other languages. It isn't specifically BASIC, but it is specifically a *fundamental* aspect of programming in Visual Basic (and other languages, of course)...and it is all written and tested in VB so in that aspect is VB-specific (not tested in any other language). I can ask friends of mine if the code would work in Java or certain other languages and then add a note on the site, but the site is primarily for VB programmers so I won't be going out of my way to make it work for other languages :-)

As I've said before in other posts, without an understanding of the *fundamental* aspects of Visual Basic (or programming, if you prefer to think of it that way) you will find that programming in VB is not as fun as if you had an understanding :-)

[brucevde]

What would you write that is different than

Part 1 - Visual Basic Basics

[smUX]

I took a quick look at the first few parts of that link...and I see stuff like hwnd, events and such mentioned...before a programmer even attempts to learn about this they need to get "down and dirty" with stuff like loops and variables and understanding exactly how they all work...they don't *need* these words mentioned yet :-)

Anyway, I'm away for a bit...so if people respond you know I am away so won't reply yet :-)

[Hack]

Moved to General Developer

[penagate]

I don't think there is much point writing a book on fundamentals of a commercially obsolete language. It sounds too much like the sort of thing that is destined to die a gory death after running on VBWire, but not before being ridiculed in Chit Chat.

If you can create a well written, ground up explanation of programming fundamentals without having to resort to examples in any particular language, you instantly have a far larger market, and far greater longevity. That's what I advise you to do instead.

[techgnome]

data types
constants
variables
assignments
conditionals
loops
error handling
classes
structures

I'm sure there's more....

-tg

[smUX]

I don't think there is much point writing a book on fundamentals of a commercially obsolete language. It sounds too much like the sort of thing that is destined to die a gory death after running on VBWire, but not before being ridiculed in Chit Chat.

Firstly, it'd be a website tutorial rather than a book tutorial...I don't think I pointed that out, and I should have :-)

Secondly, most people who know nothing about programming at all don't start with C#, Java or .NET if they're learning on the cheap (ie. not paying someone for training or buying a book)...they'll try VB2005 express (as it's free) or get a copy of VB6 (illegal through a friend, or buying if they can find a copy) and learning through that...VB6 is more user-friendly than most other languages and has a better learning curve :-)

If you can create a well written, ground up explanation of programming fundamentals without having to resort to examples in any particular language, you instantly have a far larger market, and far greater longevity. That's what I advise you to do instead.

A lot of the fundamental aspect of the site (as I think I said above) will be as language-inspecific as possible and should just as easily work on any other language as on VB6. Where an area (as far as I am aware) is language specific I will have notes on the site stating this so people know :-)

data types
constants
variables
assignments
conditionals
loops
error handling
classes
structures

I'm sure there's more....

-tg

There's a few there I didn't think of (and some I don't know much about myself too, so I guess it'll be a learning experience for me too :-))

[Al42]

computer programming logic is language inspecific

Reality is just about the exact opposite of that - logic is language independent. How to (as in a post I just answered) convert British pounds to US dollars has nothing to do with any language other than arithmetic. Implementing it in a particular computer language is another thing, but you teach how to figure out what to do before you teach how to do it. (If you don't know how to come up with a method, no amount of knowledge of any language, computer or natural, is going to help you.)

what I am trying to achieve is to build a person's programming logic

That's 2 things - knowledge of logic and knowledge of programming. Learning them both as if they're the same thing is very counter-productive, even though that may be the way you learned them. Learning them together and in a computer language is just not the way to do it.

with a series of tutorials that should build this aspect in them without bogging them down with the unimportant information (although I understand what *I* think of as unimportant might be thought of as important to other people).

A thorough knowledge of method is very important if one is ever going to become more than a dabbler. (And you can dabble with no instruction or tutorial at all - just look at how many people post questions on the forum when they don't even know what a string is.)

and it is all written and tested in VB so in that aspect is VB-specific

Which is definitely not the way to teach programming - that's the way to teach VB. You teach programming in natural (human) language - like English. (Read a few of Wirth's books to see excellent examples of how to teach programming.)

without an understanding of the *fundamental* aspects of Visual Basic (or programming, if you prefer to think of it that way) you will find that programming in VB is not as fun as if you had an understanding

Without a fundamental understanding of language independent programming, you'll find that programming in any language isn't as easy as it could be.

[smUX]

Rather than respond to all of those, I'll just say that while I am definitely no professional when it comes to programming I am fairly good at producing tutorials/training for a variety of subjects. Of course, before I advertise the tutorials or anything I will be asking people to give me feedback on what I have done so that I'm not incorrectly teaching people or anything...I'm not totally irresponsible :-)

And just because code is written/tested in VB, that doesn't make it VB specific (I merely said that because it was, it could be considered to be VB specific as opposed to language inspecific...I'm not testing it in other languages personally)...that doesn't mean that the program code is VB specific...and also, I think you are getting a little knotted up here...I think you're mixing the two plans for the site...first one is to teach the logic behind the coding (which will work in VB as it is tested in VB where applicable but isn't VB-specific) and the second one will be in a section later on and *will* be VB specific...teaching some more advanced VB stuff that makes a lot of use of the fundamentals taught previously :-)

It might be an idea for me to work on the site and get a demonstration up...that should help explain what I am planning to do, perhaps

[RhinoBull]

Al's right... you can't learn to programme in a certain language... you need to understand the logic on which programming stands...

I will disagree as far as disagreement goes... If this was 20-30 years ago then that would probably be right, however, these days you can take 4-5(!!!) days training class @ say Learning Tree and get an entry level job in almost no time.
Does that mean that you became a programmer? Of course not!
But I've worked with people that had BS/MS diploma and 10+ years of experience and having very little clue about what programming is all about...

I'm not trying to say that fundamental education is useless - no, not at all.
I'm saying is that it's no longer necessary. Computing (or programming if you will) languages are so sophisticated, OS/processors are so efficient you almost don't have to think about space, memeory, etc...

I'll stop here ... but it's an interesting thread.

[gavio]

But of course!!

I will disagree as far as disagreement goes... If this was 20-30 years ago then that would probably be right, however, these days you can take 4-5(!!!) days training class @ say Learning Tree and get an entry level job in almost no time.
Does that mean that you became a programmer? Of course not!
But I've worked with people that had BS/MS diploma and 10+ years of experience and having very little clue about what programming is all about...

I'm not trying to say that fundamental education is useless - no, not at all.
I'm saying is that it's no longer necessary. Computing (or programming if you will) languages are so sophisticated, OS/processors are so efficient you almost don't have to think about space, memeory, etc...

I'll stop here ... but it's an interesting thread.

[RhinoBull]

But of course!!

Of course what?

[penagate]

VB6 is more user-friendly than most other languages and has a better learning curve :-)

That is purely subjective.

[RhinoBull]

That is purely subjective.

I tend to agree.

[iPrank]

I believe that, before learning any language, students should learn algorithms or flowchart. It really helps to clear your logic and gives you the idea about "How programs work".

For starters I recommend reading How to Solve It by Computer.

If they are more interested, there is Knuth's The Art of Computer Programming

[RhinoBull]

I believe that, before learning any language, students should learn algorithms or flowchart...

Anything you learn will help - that's not the point... And point is - it isn't necessary these days. As I said - you can take "4-5 days class"...

[smUX]

I've worked with people that had BS/MS diploma and 10+ years of experience and having very little clue about what programming is all about...

Because they lacked a specific something perhaps? Okay, perhaps that something isn't learnable or teachable, but you'd never know until you try...and programmers can't run until they've learned to walk...now we're back to the fundamentals again :-)

Without knowing how to use a for/next loop properly, or how/why to use option explicit (yes, I'm including that...I'm a known non-user, but I will still say to new programmers that it's better if they learn and get used to doing it :-)), they're never going to learn to program adequately enough to even know how good a programmer they could be

I admit though (on a different subject, but something I am sure will be pointed out eventually :-)), there's a lot of stuff out there that teaches these fundamentals...very few go as in depth as would be required to "grind" these fundamentals into a programmer's mind though, the odd one or two tutorials briefly discussing how (for instance) a for/next loop works. What I plan to do will have a brief overview of what's coming next for each section of each part of the tutorial, and will give the learner the opportunity to skip the section if they feel they already understand that aspect...there would also be questions asked that the learner would try to answer and if they got it wrong or wasn't sure about the answer they would choose to do the section.

The point here is simple...the learner would practice these "fundamentals" so many times that it becomes second nature to them...and it *won't* take a BS/MS diploma to be able to program adequately and properly.

[RhinoBull]

...Without knowing how to use a for/next loop properly, ...

I feel like talking in the wind... so ... adios and good luck with your initiative.

[penagate]

...and it *won't* take a BS/MS diploma to be able to program adequately and properly.

No-one ever said it ever did.

This may be harsh, but the world already has a plethora of bad internet tutorials and many bad books as well. Every week someone with some basic knowledge attempts to educate others and breeds a whole new generation of misinformed coders.

All the points you have mentioned - for/next loops, variables, Option Explicit - are all trivial details. I feel you have not grasped what "fundamentals" truly means. You can write a large book on programming fundamentals without ever touching on any particular language, and people have.

Do some learning yourself - study some other design paradigms, programming languages far removed from VB.
I feel I say this in every even remotely language-related thread in this forum, but I'll keep doing it: don't just try and master one language; becoming at least competent in several is far more important.

And remember there is a large difference between programming and coding - you can program without ever touching a computer.

[techgnome]

Coding for the last 20+ years has led me to the following conclusions:

Every language has a variable declaration syntax.
Every language has a variable assignment.
Every language has a conditional structure.
Every language has a looping structure.
Every language has some kind of error handling mechanism.
Every language has the same, basic data types.
I hold these truths as universal, concrete and unwavering.
These are also true SEMANTICS aside.

Now, are you planning a Funadamentals of Programing? Or Fundamentals of VB Coding?

If your response includes "the first one" or "Programming" ... then keep this in mind. Any examples given (if any) should be few and far in between. And the VERY few that do get include MUST BE LANGUAGE FREE!

If for example give them this as an example of a conditional:

If GivingExample = True Then
  ShowExample
End If

Because that's not fundamental. Not every language uses that syntax.

In C
if (givingExample == True) { ShowExample; }

In T-SQL

If @GiveExample<>0
  BEGIN
    SELECT Example From SampleTable
  END

Meanwhile, your reader isn't any better off. They still have no clue as to what a conditional really is or how it may work.

Conditional Statements:
Conditional Statemens are commands which consist of two parts, the conditional and the execution branch. The conditional portion of the statement tests to determine if the given criteria return a True value or a False statement. The result of this conditional then determines if the execution branch is then called or not.

Then you give a generic example:

Example: If my coffee cup is empty, then I need to go get more.

In this statement the conditional is if my coffee cup is empty. If this evaluates to true (yes, the cup is empty), you then execute the brach of getting more.

Once you've gone over in such a manner, THEN and only THEN should you provide language specific examples, and ALWAYS in more than one language so they can see that there are different dialects and construcitons among the same types of statements.

-tg

[RhinoBull]

Nice going TG!

[smUX]

Now, are you planning a Funadamentals of Programing? Or Fundamentals of VB Coding?

Two parts...first part is the fundamentals of programming with the focus being on VB but (as you say below) not language specific...I would like to provide alternative information on how it actually works in other languages...All I *really* want in the fundamentals section is to show the learner how a program execution works and how these fundamental aspects are built...possibly including real world examples like (basing this on your code below) "IF weather = rainy THEN take umbrella ELSE leave umbrella at home"

If your response includes "the first one" or "Programming" ... then keep this in mind. Any examples given (if any) should be few and far in between. And the VERY few that do get include MUST BE LANGUAGE FREE!

If for example give them this as an example of a conditional:

<SNIPPED CODE HERE>

Meanwhile, your reader isn't any better off. They still have no clue as to what a conditional really is or how it may work.

Then you give a generic example:

Once you've gone over in such a manner, THEN and only THEN should you provide language specific examples, and ALWAYS in more than one language so they can see that there are different dialects and construcitons among the same types of statements.

It's given me a few things to think about...I am thinking that I should limit myself only to Visual Basic fundamentals (which was my original intention, but I strayed a little :-)). Different people have different views about what passes for "fundamental" even though from the very start of this I have always said that it pertains to programming in VB or BASIC (BASIC being the simplest aspect to understand for most people)

All the points you have mentioned - for/next loops, variables, Option Explicit - are all trivial details. I feel you have not grasped what "fundamentals" truly means. You can write a large book on programming fundamentals without ever touching on any particular language, and people have.

*Visual Basic* fundamentals, to me, is having an underlying understanding of what effect a certain command will have on the running of a program, and the interoperability of different commands (how some commands will affect others). The amount of questions I have seen in Classic VB about some of the most fundamental aspects that most of us know off by heart and take for granted. It may be that you don't realise what I mean by the word fundamental, it may be that I am using the wrong word and should instead call it VB Basics rather than VB Fundamentals, but I still feel that it is the fundamental aspect that I am talking about.

Fundamentals are, according to dictionary.com, "serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure."...I see for/next loops and variables (as well as other things, of course) as an essential part of programming

Anyway, maybe I'll scale this project down a little...make a simple tutorial site for teaching the "VB Basics" to people who have little or no understanding of Visual Basic but want to learn. As I've said before, I am fairly good at being able to produce training material and to train and assist people...it's been my job in the past :-)

This may be harsh, but the world already has a plethora of bad internet tutorials and many bad books as well. Every week someone with some basic knowledge attempts to educate others and breeds a whole new generation of misinformed coders.

Which is why I said, and I quote, "Of course, before I advertise the tutorials or anything I will be asking people to give me feedback on what I have done so that I'm not incorrectly teaching people or anything...I'm not totally irresponsible :-)"...I'll take people's criticisms of my tutorials and attempt to get the site accepted by people :-)

And also, I may not be a great programmer or understand stuff like APIs that well (getting there though), but I know how to write tutorials so that they're understandable by the newbie programmer...aside from the fact that I am one myself (although not that noobie that I'll be causing more damage than good...some of my posts in Classic VB prove that :-P) I'm able to write in plain English (and understand where words need extra information) when writing tutorials...something many authors don't seem to be able to do :-)

[triggernum5]

Stay away from general programming concepts as much as you can.. I hate it when I'm looking for references and I have to read through verbose descriptions of "Hello World".. I like TechGnome's list.. Programmers really don't need to be taught code line by line.. Show them datatypes, all operators/structures, and a good func. reference.. If thats not enough then they really aren't programmers.. Classes, User Controls, API will all creep into ppl's knowledge as they come up against various walls..
Basically my point is that you can't teach ppl a way of thinking.. If you show somebody what a for/next loop is, and they ask you what that can be used for in a real program, then that person will never be a programmer.. Besides, programming has changed with the internet in the fact that ppl can download/use functions they really don't understand how to write, but do understand how to use..

[RhinoBull]

...Basically my point is that you can't teach ppl a way of thinking...

No, you can't ... but you may show them few better ways ... which may change the way people think ... Who was you teacher I wonder?

[triggernum5]

Its programming classes I'm basing that on.. Remember lectures on sorts? Remember how some ppl said "Duh, now shut up and let me write my program.." and others tried to memorize the code line by line regardless of the logic descriptions.. Smux is talking about advanced tutorials on basic structures..
IMO sitting through programming classes is a waste of time! (Skip the class and write more code faster).. Having access to that teacher when you have a question however is a great resource (As long as the teacher isn't actually a guidance counsellor filling a position atleast.. - Yes I'm speaking about you Mrs. Finnigan!)

[RhinoBull]

Its programming classes I'm basing that on... IMO sitting through programming classes is a waste of time! (Skip the class and write more code faster)...

Interesting opinion ... I just wonder how can anyone agree with it, though.

[triggernum5]

If you're a programmer at heart then you WILL teach yourself.. You will quickly realize that clear documented code is the only way to go.. Sure you'll struggle at times (thats when the real learning happens).. Maybe I'm overestimating thinking, and underestimating copying code off a blackboard..
I should point out that I'm talking about introductory classes.. I'm not suggesting you skip much beyond 1st year university..
Lastly, if you can't learn on your own then you will quickly find yourself screwed when you finish school and what you were taught becomes obsolete.. (I was introduced to gwbasic in grade 10.. Too bad there aren't many jobs in that area anymore)

[RhinoBull]

...I should point out that I'm talking about introductory classes...

I'm glad you did because those are the most important - more important than any advanced class you will ever need to take.
Btw, for how long have you been doing programming (real programming that is) ?

[iPrank]

triggernum5, may I ask you, how many 'real world' softwares you have developed that has more than 10,000 lines of code ?

or, have you ever modified/extended a 30,000 line code, written by someone else when there is no documentation and the original developer is not available ?

[triggernum5]

And I'm not saying that the basics aren't important.. What I am saying is that many ppl can learn the basics by themselves "in 21 Days" or less and fill in holes/misconceptions as they make their mistakes and progress.. If you can't, you will eventually hit a wall you can't get over.. Obviously its exactly like math.. In the beginning you "are taught" how to follow a structured method .. Then mathematics reaches a point where you are expected to "develop" structured methods, and thats when some ppl realize they aren't exactly cut out for the task and others (who learned the same basic methods) thrive.. Just out of curiousity, where do you think the pioneers of programming (The groundbreaking rich ones) took their introductory classes? What came first? The logic or the classes, the students or the teachers?

[triggernum5]

Most of what I do is control programming which can't be compared to an application as you would percieve it.. I believe SpitFire Master (OLD shareware from '93 written in C with a group of friends that made more than $100K over about 4 years) was roughly 35000 lines.. I also freelanced a Novell peripheral database management system in VBDOS that was just over 12000 lines IIRC.. But I admit, what I do most often is usually less than 1000 lines, Sometimes less than 10 lines..

Edit: I clearly remember typing that clear documented code is indeed important, and I will add that anybody who plans to program for a firm or in any public venue should learn 'standards' (Real life standards like Hungarian notation.. The kind they don't teach you in introductory classes)

[RhinoBull]

... What came first? The logic or the classes, the students or the teachers?

I have no more to say - I'm sorry but it's getting silly.

Best regards and good luck to you with your "ideas"...

[triggernum5]

I would have responded similarly in this post.. Obviously there are many outlooks, and that makes sense considering there are often many solutions to a problem.. One thing we can all agree on is that nobody is going to improve their skillsets, or get any work done at all by continuing this debate..

[iPrank]

One thing we can all agree on is that nobody is going to improve their skillsets, or get any work done at all by continuing this debate..

You are very right.