Yes, again...........but why???

[parksie]

*** is going on here?!?!?!

[Pix]

I was just thinking that myself !

[barrk]

I don't know but I can't seem to delete them.................help me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[parksie]

Hmm...

this = bizarro^47

[barrk]

School shooting near San Diego leaves 2 dead, 13 wounded

March 5, 2001
Web posted at: 3:51 p.m. EST (2051 GMT)

SANTEE, California (CNN) -- A shooting rampage at a high school outside San Diego left two students dead, at least 13 wounded and a ninth-grader under arrest, authorities said Monday.

The shooting occurred about 9:20 a.m. (12:20 p.m. EST) at Santana High School in Santee, California, about 10 miles northeast of San Diego. One of the victims was found dead at the school, while a second, a 15-year-old boy, died at nearby Grossmont Hospital, spokeswoman Eileen Cornish said.

San Diego County Sheriff William Kolender said two or three adults were among the 13 wounded.

Authorities expect to try the suspect as an adult, San Diego County District Attorney Paul Pfingst told reporters. He said the boy would be arraigned later this week in Superior Court and the charges would include murder, assault and assault with a deadly weapon.

Student John Sharp said the student arrested in the shooting was smiling when he allegedly emerged from a restroom with a long-barreled gun.

"He was looking around, smiling, with his weapon. He fired two more shots and went back in," Sharp said.

Sharp said he photographed the incident and another student videotaped the carnage -- material that has since been confiscated by authorities. He said authorities with guns drawn arrested the suspect in the bathroom.

The school has about 1,900 students and 80 faculty and staff. One of the wounded was a sheriff's deputy assigned to the school, Sheriff's Department spokesman Ron Reina said.

Andrew Kaforey, a 17-year-old Santana senior, said he ran into the bathroom with a security guard after hearing what sounded like a firecracker or a gunshot.

"He pointed the gun right at me, but he didn't shoot," Kaforey said. As he and the guard ran out, the gunman shot the guard in the back, Kaforey said.

Fellow students told CNN affiliate KGTV the youth arrested in the shooting was a ninth-grader who had threatened to shoot someone at the school before.

"We didn't think he would do it," student Josh Stevens said. KGTV said Stevens was questioned by authorities after giving that account to reporters.

Students were quickly evacuated to a parking lot across the street from the school, police said. A sheriff's tactical unit moved into the school to evacuate any students remaining inside, Lt. Glenn Revell said.


Emergency workers treat a wounded man near the front gate of Santana High School in Santee, California

Sharp described the scene as "complete chaos. Everyone scrambled." Added student Alicia Zimmer, "Everybody was running. A whole lot of people were crying. Nobody knew what really happened."

She said there was a girl nearby with "blood all over her arm" and another with blood on her hand. Then all of a sudden, we heard more shots going off," she said. "It sounded more like a cap gun than anything. It was really scary. Everybody was running."

The school is providing counseling for students, parents and teachers at the nearby Sunrise Church.

Almost 1,900 students attend the school, where both staff and the study body were described as close-knit by the principal, Karen Degischer.

She said the school does not have metal detectors, but relies on campus security personnel.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms said local law enforcement officials have asked them to assist with the investigation. And In Washington, President Bush offered his condolences "to the teachers and the children whose lives have been turned upside-down right now."

Bush called the shooting "a disgraceful act of cowardice," adding, "When America teaches our children right from wrong and teaches values that respect life in our country, we'll be better off."

But, he said, "First things are first. And our prayers go out to the families that lost a child today."

[Pix]

Just heard about it....it's awful

[parksie]

Why oh why do you have so many students going shooting people in schools?

This is terrible, I know, but it's starting to get tedious

[Pix]

It was tedious in the first place

I can't understand how someone could do such a thing...it's beyond me

[barrk]

I think the problem stems from parents who don't pay attention to their kids......I think I would know if my child was that disturbed..........and also the easy access to guns doesn't help..........I know gun control is a touchy subject in this forum but I really think it is far to easy to get guns and far too acceptable for kids to have them!

[Pix]

It isn't only kids who do this though - look at Dunblane

[barrk]

I realize that it's not just kids....but adult idiots had to be children at some point whose parents didn't do the job they signed up for when they were just poking around in fun!!! Parenthood is serious and you can really mess up badly....the sad part is you don't pay for it when you mess up nearly as much as society pays for it!!!!

[Pix]

I know you weren't picking on kids ! I agree with what you're saying

[parksie]

And society gets it in the neck again. I don't think it's any one person/organisation's fault. More a combination of society, parents, other people (for giving bad ideas). And for very young children, exposure to REAL violence, rather than violence on TV or games.

[barrk]

I agree! I do think the reason American kids seem more prone to this sort of thing is lack of parental concern.....we (parents) are so worried about ourselves and earning a living that we forget what we're earning the money for......the kids are neglected emotionally but they have plenty of electronic toys and designer tennis shoes! I have kids over to my house constantly whose parents haven't any idea where they are or when they will be home.....I had to finally tell one kid to leave at 10pm last night.....he hopped in his nice new car and headed home. Something is terribly wrong with society.

[Guv]

Parents might be responsible due to actions they have failed to take.

I think that their peers are more responsible for the violent teen behavior due to bullying, ridicule, et cetera of the kids who are different. Sins of commission are worse than sins of omission.

The other contributing factor seems to be overall attitudes of our society. A feeling that no one is responsible for his own actions. It is always somebody else's fault. There is a lack of pride or self image. If I cannot do it on my own, the government or somebody should do it for me.

There are several situations I remember from a long time ago.

• There were people who were too proud to accept charity. The ones who did accept it, felt guilty and tried to make it on their own as soon as possible. It was not considered a right. The term Welfare rights would be considered absurd. Charity, unlike freedom, was a gift, not a right.
• An empty house was often considered a place to explore or play in. It was not usually vandalized. There was some respect for the property of others.
• Anybody who picked on a little guy was considered an outcast. When I had occasion to be in a rough neighborhood, one individual from a gang might pick a fight with me. Win, lose, or draw it was one on one. If I won, I might get somebody tuffer the next time. Those gangs would be embarrassed to pounce on me as a group. Today, I might be left alone. If attacked, it would be the whole gang, and they might do life threatening damage. Almost everybody respected the movie hero who fought fairly, and tried to emulate him.

In reading about the killings in Colorado a year or so ago, I was astonished that hardly anybody referred to the perpetrators as evil. The parents were blamed and there were lawsuits started or proposed. People blamed Hollywood movies and TV violence. People blamed song lyrics which encouraged violent behavior. People blamed the Internet.

What goes on today? Is it politically incorrect to say that somebody is evil or in some sense responsible for his own actions?

[Kzin]

Originally posted by parksie
And society gets it in the neck again. I don't think it's any one person/organisation's fault. More a combination of society, parents, other people (for giving bad ideas). And for very young children, exposure to REAL violence, rather than violence on TV or games.

The changes in British gun laws after Hungerford and Dunblane must have made this sort of thing a whole lot harder though - so one organisation or body of people - the government - may have significantly reduced the problem in Britain.

[Guv]

Any difference in violence in UK as compared to the USA is probably due more to cultural differences than gun laws and other legislation.

The UK has been civilized for at least 300 years, if not more. A little over one hunded years ago, the USA had a frontier with people opening carrying hand guns and daring anybody to mess with them.

[dimava]

under the CHIT-CHAT screen it says that Barrk (Katie) is the starter of this thread
and the first post is by Parksie


a glitch in vbulletin?

[HarryW]

Well I've got on my soap box about gun laws more than once in the past, I won't bore you with it again.

It's a very sad thing that situations like this seem so common nowdays.

Guv, I see what you mean about nobody blaming the kids themselves. It's a good point, I hadn't really thought too much about it before. You inferred that they were probably just evil... in that case do you think they were born evil?

[chrismitchell]

Personally I can't see why the press seems to blame the parents as they aren't completely to blame. In most cases psychologists have found that because of the violent images and scenes that they have access to in the forms of Magazines, Films and even TV (News Bulletins especially). Also we have to look at the source of the weapons that the children use. It seems that some older people in the American cummunity (No insult intended) have an obsession with keeping an Arsenal of weaponry in their basement "Just in case".

Whats even more stupid is after things like this happen the National Rifle Association says "Its not guns that kill people, its the people themselves", well I think that the gun helps. As much as you want you couldn't kill someone by just yelling bang at them.

Also unfortunatley we are a species designed to destroy ourselves.

Originally posted by chrismitchell
Whats even more stupid is after things like this happen the National Rifle Association says "Its not guns that kill people, its the people themselves", well I think that the gun helps. As much as you want you couldn't kill someone by just yelling bang at them.

I'm a little biased on my opinion, because I like guns(for hunting, and target practice), but if a person wanted to kill somebody, there are many others ways of doing it.. Guns do make it easier, but a knife or garotte will kill somebody just as dead as a gun will..

In this situation, a lot of people may be to blame.. the parents of the child, for not teaching him right or wrong, the peers, for mocking and beating him, and not beleiving him when he said he was going to shoot people.. a while ago, some of the kids I sit with at the lunch table were joking around about that same thing, and I told the princible.. they weren't too happy about that.. ..

Of course, it's his fault as well, for doing what he did, and not asking anybody if what he was doing is right, and not getting psychiatric help when he needed it...

just the thought of taking the life of another human being, makes my stomach turn...

[HarryW]

Yes, you can also kill someone with your bare hands but which is the easiest way to go on a rampage through a school, killing anyone you don't like the look of?

Of course, shooting them is easier, but if the person was that psychotic, and didn't have access to any firearms, do you think they would hesitate to make some sort of poison, or explosive, to kill or maim many more people than a gun would.

I think we should stop talking about this, because we could both argue until the world comes to an end, and we will not ever agree on this subject.

[HarryW]

It's not about access, it's about easy access. yeah they could make bombs or poisons or anything like that, but how easy is it? Compare that with how easy it is to just pick up a gun that's not securely locked away by irresponsible gun owners. I'm not saying noone should have a gun, but I think that if people are too irresponsible to take care of a gun and have some respect for it, considering just how dangerous is actually is, then guns should be more restricted. Also, in this kind of situation, parents who are irresponsible about their gun ownership may be likely to be irresponsible about parenthood, which makes things much worse.

Well anyway as you suggest I'm going to stop there, otherwise people will start talking about how they need guns to protect themselves from crime, which is an entirely subjective matter and I don't think any reasonable conclusions can come from discussing it.

[dimava]

under the CHIT-CHAT screen it says that Barrk (Katie) is the starter of this thread
and the first post is by Parksie

why?

[barrk]

Here's more info.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/06/sch....02/index.html


Dimava......my post got all screwed up yesterday...this thread got posted four times with not text at all.....no one is sure why.......just one of life's mysteries I guess!

[parksie]

It was me getting confused because I went to the thread and there were no posts

Oh well

[Guv]

HarryW: You raised the old nature versus nurture issue.

I believe that heredity is a lot more important than allowed in modern liberal philosophy, unless you are talking about gays. Then it is 100% of the reason for their behavior.

Obviously both heredity and environment are important. Obviously some characteristics are more influenced by one than the other. It is definitely not a one size fits all situation

On issues of violent criminal behavior, I just do not give damn about the person's history. That might be an interesting story that I consider irrelevant. It is his behavior that matters. I do not care if he inherited a terrible set of genes that made him that way. I do not care if his parents or peers did terrible things to him. I do not even care if has been brainwashed. He is dangerous. He has decided not to obey the rules of a civilized society. We cannot re-engineer his DNA. We cannot turn back the clock and give him a good childhood. If we do not know enough to modify his behavior, lock him up and throw away the key.

It might not be fair that the violent criminal could not help himself, but let us not allow him to cause a situation unfair to some future victim.

Originally posted by HarryW
It's not about access, it's about easy access. yeah they could make bombs or poisons or anything like that, but how easy is it? Compare that with how easy it is to just pick up a gun that's not securely locked away by irresponsible gun owners. I'm not saying noone should have a gun, but I think that if people are too irresponsible to take care of a gun and have some respect for it, considering just how dangerous is actually is, then guns should be more restricted. Also, in this kind of situation, parents who are irresponsible about their gun ownership may be likely to be irresponsible about parenthood, which makes things much worse.

Well anyway as you suggest I'm going to stop there, otherwise people will start talking about how they need guns to protect themselves from crime, which is an entirely subjective matter and I don't think any reasonable conclusions can come from discussing it.

I said I would stop, but I must comment on something here.

1) The kids at columbine purchased firearms from adults. They did not get any from their parents.

2) About two years ago, I was heavily into chemistry, I studied everything I could about chemistry, and turns out, with three chemicals available from a hardware store(Acetone(paint stripper), Hydrogen peroxide(30% concentration found in some drain cleaners), and one more chemical which I will not mention, so nobody attempts this) an explosive could be made. The structure of the explosive is very unstable, but fairly powerful as well.

3) At the time I was interested in chemistry, I also learned that a powerful, and possibly deadly eye-irritating gas can be made from mixing heated sulfuric acid(some drain cleaners contain high(93-99%) concentrations of this), and Acetone.


I realize that these things may not be available in all places, but there's a good chance they are in most medium to large cities..

I agree that it is easier to pick up a gun and shoot somebody than to go through the trouble and danger to make an explosive or poison, but the point I am arguing is easy access..

[Active]

Don't think I'm Irresponsible..

Just have to say..

A Piece of cotton Soaked in Nitric Acid..and dried in
******** vapor will create an Explosion.

Tried once..in an Open ground.

[boscord]

I think parents are totally responsible because in every case that I have personally witnessed, parents that give their children a great deal of attention in their first 3 years of age or so, turn out fine. Parents who may have neglected their children up until around the age of 3 or so, well, they are failing in school and/or are in juvenile hall at this moment.

How stupid is this whole thing though?

The kid, a crazy a** f***!, just destroyed the lives of 2 people, almost another 13, and this kid, if not killed first, is never gonna see the light of day again because he will be locked in some cell for the rest of his life!

What is the whole point of this?

[HarryW]

Yes you can make explosives and all kinds of other things from relatively common items, but it's not all that easy to do and does require some research. Besides, if you were angry and wanted to hurt someone, would you rather pull out a gun and shoot them right there, or leave some kind of harmful item (a bomb, gas, whatever) and just walk away?

That the kids bought the guns from adults just says even more to me that access is not restricted as it should be. Those adults are irresponsible and shouldn't be getting hold of guns so easily. I am assuming they were criminals that didn't care about who they sold the guns to. Well if it was harder to get hold of guns, there would be less guns around and they would be more expensive on the black market, just plain supply and demand, and thus harder to get hold of.

I think to most psyches, the urge to be violent would be most satisfied using lots of large-caliber firearms. Imagine these kids that were previously mostly ignored by their peers, as they walk aroudn the school with everyone running in fear. Their victims know the power they have. It's not the same with explosives or poisons or anything like that. I think there's an urge for direct violence.