Silly France

[nemaroller]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4821670.stm


I find it crazy the French youth would protest against a law that would help them get a job. I've grown up in an employment-at-will society, and I've never had to go without a job if I wanted one. How do they propose to be competitive in the world by throwing up barriers to efficiency?

Maybe they just don't want to work and wish to sit around cafe tables in the Parisian sun and collect social welfare?

[mendhak]

Combined factors:

The law allows for under-26s to be thrown out of the job without explanation at a time when unemployment is very high in the nation.

France is a generally racist and discriminatory nation.

Up until this law, it has been very difficult to get a job, and once you do get a job in France, it's even harder to get fired because of the security and benefits associated with the job.


The law addresses the third point, but ignores or hardly touches upon the first two points, which, when combined, can potentially allow for discriminatory hiring/firing and practices.

I'm sure they wanted flexibility to compete in the world market, but quite possibly the lawmakers of that nation are not competent enough to do so.

[big blue alien]

I find it crazy the French youth would protest against a law that would help them get a job

The French youth protest because they can protest, its part of being Franch

[FunkyDexter]

There's a saying: "In France, nothing changes until everything changes". The reason the French take to the streets so quickly is there govenrnments (and their monarchy before that) have always ignored the public right up until the moment that revolution becomes inevitable (and often waiting just a little bit longer than that).

I've got to agree with the French youth on this one. While a law that says, "we can fire you any time we like within the first 2 years and don't have to give you a reason why" might make it easier for the next guy to find a job, but the benefits illusory because you just lost yours and he's got no guarentee of being able to hang onto his. And why this law would apply to under 26's is utterly beyond me.

[nemaroller]

I find it also amusing that it is targeted to those under 26, but regardless, the law and its ramifications is just a step toward a freer market of labor - and people flock to good jobs with good benefits.

Being in I.T. makes it difficult to understand other's points of view since I get contacted at least once a day from a corporate recruiter even though I'm not looking for a new job - I never fear losing my job and quite contrary its more the employer worrying if I will leave.

But I imagine this still applies in other professional careers as well. If you're worth the money then you will have a job.

How does a French company terminate an employee that always shows up for work, but doesn't perform brilliantly?

[FunkyDexter]

How does a French company terminate an employee that always shows up for work, but doesn't perform brilliantly?

A smart employer would have written performance criteria into their initial contracts. If the employer didn't it gets much harder - in truth they'll probably make them redundant and then create a new position with a single irrelevant difference in responsibilities and a subtely different job description then hire someone for that job instead

I agree with you about being in IT - no worries about finding a job but you've got to remember that there's something like 50% unemployment in this age barcket in France at the moment. In those conditions I'd be a whole lot less confident.

[nemaroller]

I agree with you about being in IT - no worries about finding a job but you've got to remember that there's something like 50% unemployment in this age barcket in France at the moment. In those conditions I'd be a whole lot less confident.

Well, perhaps all those unemployed French IT workers can find jobs in London?

[sevenhalo]

Here in Iowa, we're the same way (every employee is an employee at will). I can't even tell you how much it has saved from frivilous lawsuits. Of course, there are scenarios where you might be fired unjustly for no reason. In that case, you are allowed to file suit if they continually cause you to remain unemployed (give bad references, anything to do with slander). If you are layed off with a reason, they are allowed to specify to people asking about you why you were layed off.

There is paperwork that needs to be filled out during the termination process to cover all the holes. It's actually a decent system.

[Valleysboy1978]

It's actually 20% and they would unlikely find an IT job in London as many do not like Britain in the first place. Fine by us as we don't really want them here.
Besides, this law they are bringing in will NOT find them new jobs, likely be the other way around as they will be quickly disposed of with no warning or explanation and would then be unikely to find another job afterwards

As for job security, no job is 100% secure and being "head-hunted" is reserved for those with plenty of experience and a name people know of. Please don't brag about it as not all of us have that luxury and concern over job security is present every day, as a few of the more experienced developers on this forum have experienced first hand with being made redundant with no warning.

[FunkyDexter]

My mistake, the 50% figure is for immigrants - I knew I'd heard it somewhere

I'm surprised you're worrind about job security VB. I don't get headhunted myself (unless you include agencies pestering me with jobs I'm patently unqualified for ) but the last time I was made redundant (about 8 months ago) there were swarms of position being advertised for VB programmers round here, got loads of interviews and, ultimately, 3 offers. I don't think this was down to my quality but more down to the fact that companies are crying out for our skills at the moment. Mind you, I live in Hampshire and the surrounding counties are IT rich and I imagine Wales lacks the same level of opportunities.

[Valleysboy1978]

Indeed. Most want at least 3 years of VB experience at least, of which I don't yet have although I'm sure that'll come (although I'm now on .Net) in time. Even still, job security is no longer true, even the most senior directors' jobs are at risk.

[FunkyDexter]

Ah, that old chestnut. Hang on in there for a couple of years though and you'll be amazed how much easier it gets. And if ever it get's too much you can say to yourself "At least I'm not French"

[Moon Pie]

Doesn't exactly make you want to locate your business in France, does it?

[capsulecorpjx]

Well I'm not fully informed. But it seems that the new law is discriminatory by age. Young people will get fired, while older workers will not, just because it will be easier to fire young workers.

If the rules was made across the board for all ages, then I don't think the youth would protest as much.

That is the core of the protest I think, the age discrimination. Because every time a company needs to downsize they will think "lets fire all the young workers first because it is easier"

Actually if you think about this policy from the Game Theory prospective. The companies will do this:
They will fire most of their young employees right before the young employees get old enough to be considered protected (harder to fire), and replace them with the next batch of young workers. So what you are doing effectively is protecting the current generation of old of workers, and screwing over subsequent generations.

In my opinion, a company should be allowed to lay you off, as long as their reason isn't biggoted.

[Moon Pie]

I can see that point, but don't most companies in places with employment at will have probationary periods of 30 to 180 days where it is easier to fire someone? Much of the time, it is young people anyway.

As it turns out, I have a friend who left Burgundy just before they started lighting up the cars. He was not exactly impressed.

[capsulecorpjx]

I can see that point, but don't most companies in places with employment at will have probationary periods of 30 to 180 days where it is easier to fire someone? Much of the time, it is young people anyway.

As it turns out, I have a friend who left Burgundy just before they started lighting up the cars. He was not exactly impressed.

Of the probation is across the board for all ages, that would be fine. It just needs to be an even playing field.

Old people have experience in their favor, young people have fast learning and new ideas in their favor. So that aspect evens out.

You can't throw in a monkey wrench into the system and say only a certain age group are protected from being fired.

[Valleysboy1978]

Would I locate my company in France? Good god no! They have had two major sets of riots in as many months!!
They have got some serious problems in France and I think a lot of it stems from the idiots in power who think they are the driving force behind the EU. Time for the UK to threaten to leave to get a better deal I think

[nemaroller]

It's actually 20% and they would unlikely find an IT job in London as many do not like Britain in the first place. Fine by us as we don't really want them here.
Besides, this law they are bringing in will NOT find them new jobs, likely be the other way around as they will be quickly disposed of with no warning or explanation and would then be unikely to find another job afterwards

As for job security, no job is 100% secure and being "head-hunted" is reserved for those with plenty of experience and a name people know of. Please don't brag about it as not all of us have that luxury and concern over job security is present every day, as a few of the more experienced developers on this forum have experienced first hand with being made redundant with no warning.

Just wait a year or two Valley... you'll be golden. All that marketing Microsoft does touting the need for businesses to use .Net technology is benefiting .Net developers tremendously.

Keeping the same IT job for more than 2 years is practically insane anyhow. Most recruiters want to see a lengthy resume - it means you have been exposed to different business environments and a gammut of situations compared to a person who stales in one job.

[Valleysboy1978]

True enough. Thankfully we have a new HR manager who is really pushing for me to pass my MCP so I'm sure that'll help. She's also pestering my Director to pay for me to go on a training course every 3 months. Well if they're going to pay for it!

[nkad]

Oh come on guys, you didn't finish the sentance. You were suppose to say....

Silly France, Trix are for Kids!