This is absolutely disgusting!!!

[Wokawidget]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4681294.stm



Woka

[thegreatone]

I agree with you Woka, this is simply too far.

Peaceful protest i agree with, violent ? No way.

[Wokawidget]

Then you have this in London:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4676524.stm

"Europe, you'll come crawling when the Mujahideen come roaring" (which we can see in the foto)
and
"7/7 is on its way" (which we can't see in foto, so this is alleged)

Yes, that's right, because I, me personally, deserve to die for this don't I...

I'm sorry, but I find this offencive. Do you think the people holding those banners would mind if I went round their house and petrol bombed it?! But in their eyes [the people holding the banners] it's OK to do this because they offended me. *sigh*

Gimme 10 minutes in a closed room with a staple gun and the guy holding that banner!

Woka

[mendhak]

BBC apologized for airing the cartoon (not as a still image, but a moving image over the newspaper).

Do you think BBC should have apologized?

[Pino]

religion again.

Extreme!

[Wokawidget]

BBC apologized for airing the cartoon (not as a still image, but a moving image over the newspaper).

Do you think BBC should have apologized?

Hmmmmm...I am unaware that the BBC did print it. In fact, I am almost certain they didn't.
Or do you mean on TV, on the news, in the background?

I do not think they should appologise.
Every single day in life people from all walks of life get offended, some at the stupidest things. 99% just tut to themselves and get on with life, because life to to short to worry about things.

I also think that no-one in their right mind can make any judgement on situations like this unless they have actually seen the image themselves.

A few years back Channel 4, an English TV station, aired a satirical comedy written by Chris Morris (comic genius). The subject was peadophilia. The aim of the satire was to take the mick out of the media and how it blew things out of proportion, and not glamorising peadophilia.

Chris Morris aimed to geta reaction out of the media...oh and boy did he!!! People campagned for him never to be allowed to be on TV again. It was brought up in Government and they wanted to propose a move to ban him blah blah. Poo really hit the fan. My own Grandparents were disgusted at it too.

Something daft like 95% of people polled who were sickened and disgusted, including Government miniters who were proposing the ban and my own grandparents, hadn't actually watched the satire or seen any part of it....I'm sorry, but how on earth can you make the comments like they were doing when you have zero idea about what you're talking about.

Chris Morris's task was complete. He succeded

If you don't like anything, be it the peadophile satire (Peadogeddon), Friends, Fraiser, Italian food, short skirts or cartoons taking the mick, then it's simple. Stay away from them.

My sister did something similar. My Gran and middle sister were involved in a head on car crash 4 years ago. They bwere in a VERY bad way as they engine pretty much toasted their legs and were in intensive care. Me and my younger sister were the only family members around. We were at the hospital and I was asking the nurse what the damage was, as I couldn't see anything as their legs were under bandages. She said she had photos that the docs took so I asked to see them, just so I have a better understanding of what they are going through, and about how serious the situation was.
I took the fotos and sat on one side of intensive care thumbing through them. I had no idea what I was looking at it was that bad. Anyways, my younger sister kept saying "don't show me. Don't show me", which I wasn't, yet she kept coming over to where I was sitting and looking over my shoulder at them. This was HER choice, I'd deliberatly walked away from her.
She was then sick on the spot as they were than bad. But then I got blamed! Errrr...No...you actively came over and looked knowing full well what was in these fotos, your choice, not mine, but yours...and you're blaming me?!

I am assuming that the vast majority of people campagning about these pictures (the prophet ones, not my grans car crash) haven't actually seen them. Ok, so does this mean that if I get a pen and paper now and draw the prophet doing something daft, in my own home that only me and my GF would see, then I would be subjected to a personal hate campagne? This would then mean that other peoples beliefs are actually being forced upon me. This is 110% unacceptable.
Woka

PS Sister and Gran made full recovery by the way thanks to the absolutely fantastic doctors! And that was NHS

[visualAd]

One has the right to be offended and protest about the offense but I cannot see what good crimnal damage, murder or being offensive back does. Like most things, its just an excuse for phsycos to go an cause a bit of trouble - giving everyone a bad name

[Something Else]

Some removed the Danish flag and replaced it with another reading: "There is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God."

Pardon, but isn't the saying supposed to be "There is no god but allah, and muhammad is his prophet"?

Must be a translator issue.

[big blue alien]

if you dont want your prophet to be satierised as a terrorist DONT GO BLOWING PEOPLE UP. I feel sory for the good muslims who get a bad name because of all of this, the day after that protest in London they had their own smaller protest and their was no trouble

[Wokawidget]

if you dont want your prophet to be satierised as a terrorist DONT GO BLOWING PEOPLE UP.

But they arn't blowing stuff up, that's the problem.

It would be like me writing the worlds nastiest virus, then everyone from VBF being accused of being virus writers.

[Pino]

I've got an image on my phone i'll get it on here soon. I saw it in the paper today of a baby with a hat saying I love al'quida (nt sure of spelling) the baby was taken to one of the demo's

Just stupid. I agree a minority causing problems for the majority.

[Wokawidget]

And now this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4682560.stm



WOka

[Pino]

'Respect our religion'

respect property and life. a complete joke, so gets me annoyed

[Shaggy Hiker]

One thing that puzzles me is the bit about muslims considering any image of Mohammed to be offensive. You aren't supposed to have an image of him, which I suppose has something to do with the 'no graven images' bit that is found in a few religeons.

So my question is: How do they recognize that the cartoon is a picture of him?

Thousands of gaudy pictures of jesus would allow any christian to recognize a caricature of him, but how so for a muslim?

[moeur]

The radical Muslims will have to have to accept being offended by other cultures if they ever want to be accepted into the world community. The problem is that if they start to behave themselves and act responsibly they will not be noticed and hence may lose what power they currently have.

The rest of the world has to stop apologizing to them every time they get upset and start treating them as the thugs that they are.

The peaceful Muslims have to stop supporting the radicals and distance themselves from them by condemning their violent actions. Until we hear a voice from the peaceful Muslims the rest of the world will continue to believe that they all speak with this one violent voice.

[mendhak]

The peaceful Muslims have to stop supporting the radicals and distance themselves from them by condemning their violent actions. Until we hear a voice from the peaceful Muslims the rest of the world will continue to believe that they all speak with this one violent voice.

I don't understand this. They do speak up, everytime something happens, there are always comments by them.

Do you simply choose to ignore them and assume they speak with one voice?

[moeur]

I don't understand this. They do speak up, everytime something happens, there are always comments by them.

No they don't.

Maybe I read the wrong papers and see the wrong news, but every time things like this happens the Mullahs are silent.

Please point me to criticism of this latest action by leaders in the Muslim religion and I will concede your point.

[mendhak]

You mentioned peaceful muslims, not mullahs.

Not all mullahs are peaceful, and not all peaceful muslims are mullahs. Also, mullahs are not the representatives of the middle eastern population, just as the pope doesn't represent the entire western world.

[penagate]

Please point me to criticism of this latest action by leaders in the Muslim religion and I will concede your point.

Second link that Woka posted in this thread.

[moeur]

You mentioned peaceful muslims, not mullahs.

Not all mullahs are peaceful, and not all peaceful muslims are mullahs. Also, mullahs are not the representatives of the middle eastern population, just as the pope doesn't represent the entire western world.

The Mullahs are the leaders and representatives of the Muslim religion and there are many who are peaceful but, not one of them steps forward and condems any violence commited in the name of Islam. If they did, a lot of this violence would be stopped immediately. No; the more radical among these Mullahs went so far as to travel to the middle East to bring news of these cartoons with them and to actually incite violence.

The Pope does not represent the entire western world, but he does lead all of his faith.

[Wokawidget]

The radical Muslims will have to have to accept being offended by other cultures if they ever want to be accepted into the world community. The problem is that if they start to behave themselves and act responsibly they will not be noticed and hence may lose what power they currently have.

The rest of the world has to stop apologizing to them every time they get upset and start treating them as the thugs that they are.

The peaceful Muslims have to stop supporting the radicals and distance themselves from them by condemning their violent actions. Until we hear a voice from the peaceful Muslims the rest of the world will continue to believe that they all speak with this one violent voice.

This is completely incorrect on sooo many lvls.

The imagwes have also upset upstanding decent muslims too, who have held peacefull protests, and this I have no problem with what so ever.
And as for them supporting the thugs...err...they don't. They publicly condone what's gone on. They campagne for the release of hostages in the middle east and speak out about those who try to incite violence.

No offence, but are you American? The reason I say this is because I am currently in the US and the media here is very biased, from what I have seen. In the UK we are used to unbiased reporting, and get to see both sides.
This is from what I have seen in the US in the last week, and when I was here 2 years ago. Correct me if I am wrong (not having a go at Americans here by the way)

Woka

[Wokawidget]

The Mullahs are the leaders and representatives of the Muslim religion and there are many who are peaceful but, not one of them steps forward and condems any violence commited in the name of Islam. If they did, a lot of this violence would be stopped immediately. No; the more radical among these Mullahs went so far as to travel to the middle East to bring news of these cartoons with them and to actually incite violence.

The Pope does not represent the entire western world, but he does lead all of his faith.

Again....wrong wrong wrong on SOOOOOO many lvls.

What news/media are you getting your "facts" from...yea, maybe one of 2 radicals did that, but the majority certainly dont, and do speak out.

Read news.bbc.co.uk, voted worlds best news service for it's unbiased reporting.

Woka

[moeur]

Again....wrong wrong wrong on SOOOOOO many lvls.

Which point is wrong?

That the Imams and Mullahs are the leaders of the Muslim religion?

That there is no condemnation for the violence coming out of the Mosques?

Yes I am American and we do get a different point of view than you do from out news outlets, but it isn’t any more biased that your BBC.

Are you suggesting that the Muslim religious leaders have joined in solidarity to make public statements condemning violence and all our TV and New papers have ignored this? I couldn’t find it on BBC either.

[Wokawidget]

That the Imams and Mullahs are the leaders of the Muslim religion?

Nope. This is fine.

That there is no condemnation for the violence coming out of the Mosques?

Absoluely 110% incorrect. That statement is just gibberish. Sorry.

Yes I am American and we do get a different point of view than you do from out news outlets, but it isn’t any more biased that your BBC.

HAHAHAHAHA You have got to be joking right?!

Are you suggesting that the Muslim religious leaders have joined in solidarity to make public statements condemning violence and all our TV and New papers have ignored this? I couldn’t find it on BBC either.

Ok...I am saying that muslim leaders have spoken out and condemed the attacks. I don't know what your source of info is, but it clearly isn't realiable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4684250.stm

Lebanon's leading Sunni politician Saad Hariri, said the violence was a "black day" for Lebanon's Muslims.

Muslim clerics had spoken out against the protests

Security officials said at least 18 people were injured, AP news agency reported. The government said several dozen Lebanese and Syrians had been arrested.

'Inexcusable' actions

Some Muslim clerics helped to persuade the crowd to disperse as the violence died down, the BBC's Jim Muir reports from the scene.

Lebanon's most prominent Sunni leader, Saad al-Hariri, vowed to track down and prosecute those involved in the attacks.

"We tell our Christian brothers that any stone thrown against a house or a car was an insult to Muslims," he said from Paris.

and...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4683002.stm

Meanwhile, Inayat Bunglawala, a spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, said that Muslims would be in favour of arresting those who waved offensive placards or banners.

He told Channel 4 News: "I think the police were right to have taken footage of the event and identified the ringleaders, because although several hundred people were there, the actual placards were being held by a tiny group of extremists."

He added: "Those extremists who were inciting violence were trying to hijack genuine feelings amongst Muslims for a more violent agenda.

"There will be no sympathy for them when they are charged by the police."

I'll let you find the rest

Woka

[moeur]

I also think it is funny that you on that side of the pond think your news is unbiased. It certainly spends more time on international affairs, but it is biased toward the liberal end of the spectrum.

As far as Muslim religious leaders condeming the violence.

Muslim clerics had spoken out against the protests

This is the only line in both articles that said anything about the subject. All other references were from political leaders which do not have anywhere near the power of the religious leaders.

There is no out cry from the religious community to stop the violence and until there is it will continue.

[visualAd]

The radical Muslims will have to have to accept being offended by other cultures if they ever want to be accepted into the world community. The problem is that if they start to behave themselves and act responsibly they will not be noticed and hence may lose what power they currently have.

The rest of the world has to stop apologizing to them every time they get upset and start treating them as the thugs that they are.

The peaceful Muslims have to stop supporting the radicals and distance themselves from them by condemning their violent actions. Until we hear a voice from the peaceful Muslims the rest of the world will continue to believe that they all speak with this one violent voice.

With people who hold attitudes like yours; they wonder where terrorists come from!!

[dglienna]

You should ban yourself for that, Adam. Seems against the AUP amongst other things.
Haven't you guys ever heard of CNN? They aren't any network that may be biased one way or another. Might be like your bbc network, or even the same thing.

[Andrew G]

I'm just wondering if there are any Muslims on VBF and what's their view on this.

[Wokawidget]

There is no out cry from the religious community to stop the violence and until there is it will continue.

And because you personally haven't seen this then all muslims are terrorists?

Hmmmmm.

I live just round the corner, under 400m away, from where the 7/7 UK suicide bombers lived in Leeds...and believe me, there was a huge outcry from muslim leaders and the whole community. In fact, sod the community that's small fry, muslims across the world went nuts at what had happened.

Are you religeous out of interest?

Woka

[Wally Pipp]

Don't start on that path Woka. Religion is what started all this. And don't bother to argue with the likes of moeur. It's just not worth it.

I agree with shaggy though. If depiction of the prophet is banned then how do they know it is the prophet? Because it was written next to it?
I could draw a pumpkin and write a caption saying "This is a spoon" and everyone would laugh at it/me (or look puzzled as the case may be). No-one would believe it for one minute.

[Shuja Ali]

I'm just wondering if there are any Muslims on VBF and what's their view on this.

There are .
My view of all this is that offending others (can be anyone not only Muslims) is the worst thing that anyone can do. Why do we have to target Muslims and there beliefs? Being a Muslim I also condemn the printing of something that abuses our prophet(peace be upon him) or our religion. And protesting against it in a peaceful manner is what people are supposed to do. Having "Freedom of Speech" doesn't mean that I will go and stand outside my neighbour's house and start using abusive language or make a cartoon of his Grandfather which is abusive and paste it outside his house. In the West even if I have Freedom of Speech, I can't go and start using abusive language against anyone. This what the Press in some of the European countries has done. Abused all the Muslims across the world. Then why are the Governments saying that we have Freedom of speech in our country and we can't do anything about this. When you can arrest a person holding a banner in his hand saying something against the government then why can't you stop your press from printing all that stuff. This is my perception of all this and I don't represent anyone or any community here.

Also there has been some increase in the incidents that have raised the anger of Muslim community across world. And this needs to be addressed by everyone. This way we the people of world are going nowhere. If we have to live and enjoy our life on this planet then we need look into this seriously and start respecting each other. (i seriously wish that the world becomes a virtual community like VBF and CG where people come and help each other without even knwoing who is asking for help)

About the placards. That is pure nonsense. Asking a terrorist to come and help you is nothing but pure frustration. Killing innocent people is nothing but murder and murderer according to me has to be killed.

One more thing that I would like to add here is that Judging the whole community by actions of few 1000s or maybe even 100s is not going to do any good to all of us.

[Andrew G]

How about these? I'm not trying to say anything about anyone or anything, I'm just showing that muslims publish things about other religions, but we do not see anyone protesting or any violence.

"The Islamic Bookstore in Lakemba, for example, sells vicious anti-Semitic tract The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as well as various anti-Christian titles (Crucifixion or Cruci-FICTION?).

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/car...074159423.html

[Shuja Ali]

If you read my post again, you will see that I have mentioned that offending others is not going to lead us anywhere. That is my perception of how I see things.

Being a Muslim it is my responsibility to condemn or protest anything that is being said or done against my religion. But yes indulging in voilence is not the way of doing things. It can and should be done peacefuly.

[Andrew G]

I'm not saying that all muslims are the same, I am merely pointing out that a few people published an image, and it lead to many people protesting etc, but here we have also people who post stuff about other religions, but no one does anything such as protests. All I am trying to say is that maybe protesting and violence (even if its by only a few people) is a bit too much for such a thing. I agree that no one should put any images or say anything to offend others, but if does occur, to me it would not be a major problem.

Either way i do not wish to start a religious war in VBF or any where, and hence i am sorry if i have offended anyone.

[Shuja Ali]

Either way i do not wish to start a religious war in VBF or any where, and hence i am sorry if i have offended anyone.

This is why I wrote

(i seriously wish that the world becomes a virtual community like VBF and CG where people come and help each other without even knwoing who is asking for help)

[FishGuy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4684652.stm

IMO people are just taking this too far, sorry but I have seen loads of cartoons of god and not been too offended, these people all claim to be outraged, just an excuse to riot and protest I think. all they are doing is damaging themselves and their own cities by these protests.

Death to France and Denmark indeed, sorry but while many may be protesting peacefully it's the other muslims who are grabbing the headlines with their extremist banners and the like which really doesnt do their cause very good at all.

Munira Mirza is a commentator on multicultural issues and Islamophobia

British newspapers should publish the images. Muslims should be able to see them and judge them for themselves, that's why we have freedom of speech.

Many Muslims want the same freedoms as everyone else to debate, criticise and challenge their religion.

They want to be able to say: "Hey we're not children, we can handle criticism, we don't need special protection - we're equal."

Many don't want to be treated as a special group, seen as worthy of more protection from criticism than other groups because of their apparent victim status.

There are a lot of British Muslims who I'm sure would not be offended by the cartoons. There are, of course, many who are upset and hurt, but that's the point of living in a free society.

No matter the price, the principle of freedom must be defended. Unless we stand up for freedom of speech, we are unable to engage freely and hold belief systems - of all kinds - to account.

In Denmark, there are counter-demonstrations by moderate Muslims saying they don't want the images banned.

This idea that all Muslims have to hold the line against Islamophobia is just nonsense. We should not play the games of extremists and nor should we play into the very patronising assumptions of the British political elite about what Muslims are capable of listening to.

[grilkip]

You should ban yourself for that, Adam. Seems against the AUP amongst other things.
Haven't you guys ever heard of CNN? They aren't any network that may be biased one way or another. Might be like your bbc network, or even the same thing.

I watched both CNNI and BBC World during the Iraq invasion, it seemed like there were two different wars going on. Too bad I can't receive BBC World were live now.

On topic:

Ofcourse I condemn the violence, which is probably being fueled by radical elements and pent up frustration. but..

I do not understand why 'we' would use the freedom of speech we hold deer to purposely offend others. What is the point? Is the printing and reprinting of these cartoons a way to reaffirm our freedom to ourselves? Surely there is no need to demonstrate it to 'them'.

Freedom of speech is a delicate thing, it does not work without self restraint. The free societies in the west and elsewhere can exist not only thanks to laws but also (or even more so) thanks to a number of unwritten laws. One of which is to show respect to others in the public domain, even if you are not technically required to do so.

Here in Holland we thankfully have had no turmoil so far even though some media have shown the cartoons. Hopefully it'll stay that way.

Freely quoting former foreign minister Hans van den Broek from the telly:

I wish those cartoonists would now use their freedom to draw a cartoon of a Muslim preacher, a Rabbi and a Priest looking up to god, who says: "If you do not shake hands I cannot guarantee you peace".

Wouldn't be as funny maybe, but more helpful.

$0.02

[FunkyDexter]

I think it's worth taking a quick look at what actually happened. A Danish paper ran a competition inviting people to send ion cartoons depicting how they saw the islamic faith. They then published them and made it 100% clear that they included representations of Mohammed (so I'm afraid 'How did they know it was him?' arguments don't really go anywhere). The islamic faith specifically bans depicting Mohammed because it's believed to encourage idolatry - this is a tenet we do not have in Christianity (the Vatican sells Jesus Christ snow globes for crying out loud) but that does not mean it's one we should be unsympathetic to.

At this point, muslims world wide began protesting by boycotting Danish goods - this seems like a perfectly reasonable form of protest to me and I see no difference between it and the American boycotting of French goods when they refused to support the Iraq war. This peaceful form of protest was effective and eventually the Danish government apologised, at which point a right leaning French paper, followed by others, reprinted them claiming the right of free speech. To me this smacks of a cynical attempt to sell copy by provoking a clash and I doubt very much that they were motivated by a desire to defend free speech. Just because you have the right of free speech does not always mean you are right to exercise it - I have the right to berate a small child for hours on end until they cry but if I do it I'm still an ass-hole.

I'm not surprised so many muslims took to the streets to protest and I do not condemn them for doing so, in fact I'd encourage them AS LONG AS THE PROTEST IS PEACEFUL. Even the occasional outbreak of violence is understandable (if not excusable) as this says more about the nature of mobs than the nature of muslims. However, burning down embassies and carrying placards advocating murder clearly is not and those guilty of these acts should be arrested. However, we do need to remember that many muslim leaders have condemned what's going on and I get the impression that the vast majority of muslims feel these actions went too far - we should not tar an entire religion with the same brush.

Someone posted on either this thread or the other that they should all go back to where they imigrated from. I can't remember who now. I'd like to point out to that poster that Islam is a religion, not a nationality (at least in the context of a nation state), and there are many 2nd, 3rd and even higher generation muslims in the UK - they didn't immigrate from anywhere. (Yes, I know about the "Nation of Islam" but that's not a nation in the commonly held understanding of the term.)

[mendhak]

I also think it is funny that you on that side of the pond think your news is unbiased. It certainly spends more time on international affairs, but it is biased toward the liberal end of the spectrum.

As far as Muslim religious leaders condeming the violence.
This is the only line in both articles that said anything about the subject. All other references were from political leaders which do not have anywhere near the power of the religious leaders.

There is no out cry from the religious community to stop the violence and until there is it will continue.

Uhm... hi. Woka's posted the link twice for you to see.

[Valleysboy1978]

Yes the BBC News website had it up for a while then they came to their senses before their place got torched.

Any action like this is totally unjustified, especially blaming the whole of Europe (and other allies) with one Danish newspaper. This is just yet another excuse for extremists to jump on the bandwagon and destroy some property for fun.

Its a disgrace to human kind