An Englishman's Point Of View

[yrwyddfa]

I went out on Thursday night to a local 'hotspot' with an old friend of mine. The object of the occasion was to catch up and drink beer.

Now, some really old guy was chatting these ladies up, and one of them came over and asked us to politely remove this guy. We simply asked him to move and he did.

Those two ladies, who were very pleasant, turned out to be an alcoholic, and a smack addict.

But I have to say I have never met two (uneducated) people who have such an honest, and philosophical perspective of life. I found it incredibly refreshing.

I did my duty as a man, and an Englishman: I walked one of them home, and ordered a taxi to ensure the other one got home safely.

But I am left with a profound sense that my middle-class, and effectively (proportionaly) rich as I am, I know nothing of how people really live. The level of 'middle-classness' in this country is pretty high, but we know, but never acceot, that the vast majority of people live in poverty (below median income)

Their fears, their anxieties, and their worries all struck a chord for me. I can't believe that after all these years I'd forgotten about the realities of life. I mean this is where I come from . . . .

I feel ashamed. All my postering, all my arrogance, aggressive conceit, seems wasted. It's a luxury to be able to say these things. It's a luxury to call upon a well educated vocabulary. It's a luxury to dismiss Kant et all. It;s a luxury to go to work and earn over £30/hour.

I learnt humilty that night, I learnt that there's not one person who is worthless (Come on -we all believe it, but how many times do you walk past the weak and the helpless?)

I feel totally ashamed of who I've become.

[crptcblade]

You should have robbed them.

[szlamany]

I've come to the opinion that the economic situation of a person is only indirectly related to the alcoholic or smack or crack addition they might have.

A business associate I knew from the 1980's - software developer - business owner (this all brought wealth) could not kick cocaine which led to crack which was buried in heavy drinking which led to killing a pedestrian one New Years eve and now 7 to 15 years in jail. Person was obviously educated...

This is not the only case I know of - smack use by legal professionals that lead to overdose deaths - the list goes on...

I fully believe that the lack of attention paid to mental health is the cause of the alcohol/drug/crack use. We have no problem ordering flu shots and getting our teeth bleached, but any form of depression or self-esteem problems in our children are ignored (actually denied most likely) and then we push out teens and adults barely able to perform in society.

I'm sure that if you dug deep into the past of these two women the stories of bad upbringing and lack of love/attention and true caring might be the foundation of the loss they are in now...

Sorry to be so serious in chit chat

[crptcblade]

I've come to the opinion that the economic situation of a person is only indirectly related to the alcoholic or smack or crack addition they might have.

A business associate I knew from the 1980's - software developer - business owner (this all brought wealth) could not kick cocaine which led to crack which was buried in heavy drinking which led to killing a pedestrian one New Years eve and now 7 to 15 years in jail. Person was obviously educated...

This is not the only case I know of - smack use by legal professionals that lead to overdose deaths - the list goes on...

I fully believe that the lack of attention paid to mental health is the cause of the alcohol/drug/crack use. We have no problem ordering flu shots and getting our teeth bleached, but any form of depression or self-esteem problems in our children are ignored (actually denied most likely) and then we push out teens and adults barely able to perform in society.

I'm sure that if you dug deep into the past of these two women the stories of bad upbringing and lack of love/attention and true caring might be the foundation of the loss they are in now...

Sorry to be so serious in chit chat

Thanks for expanding on my point.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Szlamany- Excellent post. I had never thought about it quite that way, but I think you have the right of it for a large number of middle-class and upper people.

Yrwyddfa-I agree with you there. However, I my eyes were opened several years ago. Still don't know what to do about it, though.

There is a difference with those who grow up poor. They have a fairly well documented difference in the way they view the world (especially financially) as opposed to those from more affluent backgrounds. I had large crews of women from poor backgrounds working for me a few years ago. I liked them, but I was horrified by them at the same time. Most of them had so much potential to improve their situations, but they could neither see it, nor be brought to see it. The opportunities that exist for me, exist for them as well, but they cannot see them. For some people, hard work is not sufficient for them to get ahead. They fundamentally lack the awareness that they CAN attain their dreams, and therefore, they dream smaller dreams. Give them faith in their own value, and they will rise out of the cycle of poverty....maybe. It's easy to say, but nearly impossible to do.

[timeshifter]

I grew up in quite a bit below the "normal" life for someone living in urban Maryland for the first 9 years of my life... I mean, due to our proximity to Washington D.C., there were always people below me in the economical standing, but my dad and i did whatever we could to help them when we were in the area..

Then my dad got a job as the manager of a printing company in small-town Iowa, and in 5 years had more than doubled it's value... he was promoted to vice-president, a position created specifically for him, and we were living in the wealthy zone of our area. I don't think I ever really adapted to having money, becasue as soon as dad lost his job, i felt as if life were back to normal... Now I'm at college and I have no money at all...

I know what it's like living in the rather low end of society... It sucks if you're in a rich area, and if you ever get to the rich side of things, it just feels wierd...

[yrwyddfa]

Szlamany- Excellent post. I had never thought about it quite that way, but I think you have the right of it for a large number of middle-class and upper people.

Yrwyddfa-I agree with you there. However, I my eyes were opened several years ago. Still don't know what to do about it, though.

There is a difference with those who grow up poor. They have a fairly well documented difference in the way they view the world (especially financially) as opposed to those from more affluent backgrounds. I had large crews of women from poor backgrounds working for me a few years ago. I liked them, but I was horrified by them at the same time. Most of them had so much potential to improve their situations, but they could neither see it, nor be brought to see it. The opportunities that exist for me, exist for them as well, but they cannot see them. For some people, hard work is not sufficient for them to get ahead. They fundamentally lack the awareness that they CAN attain their dreams, and therefore, they dream smaller dreams. Give them faith in their own value, and they will rise out of the cycle of poverty....maybe. It's easy to say, but nearly impossible to do.

I've had three cycles of 'poverty' in my life. The first was when my natural father left the house (and never returned) when I was six months old. My mum was left to pay a mortgage and bring my brother and I up; the state didn't help because of the equity in the house (it was over £500 (!!?) at the time - early 1970's)

The second was when I left home when I was sixteen and lived in some bedsit. In this country, then, you're not entitled to claim any benefits until you're eighteen. So busking it was . . .

The third was when my girlfriend, now my wife, fell pregnant with my first child. Standard stuff: no money feed the kid, feed the wife - you get to eat if there's any left over.

My point was (in my original post) is that I sort of know what it's like to have no prospects, where society cans you up and forgets about you.

I'd just forgotten.

[Valleysboy1978]

I believe that although your background does help it is more a state of mind. Britain would probably class us as Middle-class but would be at the lower end as my parents rarely earned above £20k each during my childhood. My uncle on the other hand earned in excess of £200k a year by himself, but was always humble about it.
I am very ambitious and will work hard to get where I want and as such financed myself through university by working in the local store. My two cousins did not, they had a free ride.
I took Computer Studies, not only because I enjoyed it but becaue I knew it would be useful.
They took art and media studies respectively, one is now a call-centre worker and the other is out of work. Because they had it spoon fed to them they do not have the drive or ambition and no matter how hard the family tries to tell them they need to work hard they just don't get it.

I suppose I'm trying to say it is more about your attitude and how hard you had to work through your education that determines your success in life. If you got the right attitude, you'll go far

[nemaroller]

I suppose I'm trying to say it is more about your attitude and how hard you had to work through your education that determines your success in life. If you got the right attitude, you'll go far

I would say the main components for success are:

• Attitude - (Drive whether greed or competitiveness and the ability to keep trying even though you've been beaten many times)
• Oppurtunity
• Education

Education helps but is not a requirement. I know very well educated people who still only strive to be and subsequently are middle class. On the other hand, there are many salespeople who make well above middle class income with nothing more than their primary education.

Finacially, I strive to have my own software company that nets me 60k a month. That's a lofty goal to fill - but anything slightly short of that still bodes well for me.

As far as personal success - I'm already there for the most part - two children and a wonderful wife.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Attitude is big. I knew alot of people who were very positive.....positive that they couldn't go to college, positive that they couldn't make good money, positive that they would remain where they were.

The attitudes were great in that they were happy enough in general, but they were just a bit too positive.

It may be different in other places. The area I am talking about differs from the other examples mentioned here because it is VERY rural. Opportunity meant moving, and that can be more of an impediment to some people than simple poverty. There was one 40 year old woman on the crew who apparently had never traveled 50 miles from her house in her entire life. Not much opportunity in that radius.

[MasterBlaster]

I feel totally ashamed of who I've become.

I've been telling you that you should be ashamed of yourself for the last year. Why do I even bother?

Man don't be so hard on yourself. You're making 30 an hour because that is what you've busted your balz for. You earned in. Enjoy it. Some people do not understand what it takes to get ahead in life, some do understand but could care less. Listening to some drunk asshat complain about how crappy her life is should not qualify as a life changing event. Mabe if she put down the pint and spent the $$ she blows drinking every day and used it for something productive there would be no reason to complain. Bottom line, If she can afford to pony up cash at the pub she could just as eaisally buy a nice dress for a job interview or mabe buy a few college credits. or course that wouldn't be the easy way.

[Valleysboy1978]

Indeed. So many complain they are in a dead end job, but wouldn't think about doing a course part-time. Hypocrites