Katrina

[yrwyddfa]

Sympathies to all those involved

[Valleysboy1978]

Agreed, and good luck to those yet to be involved

[wossname]

Same here.

[Cander]

Most of family lives in/around New Orleans. I am very concerned.

[yrwyddfa]

Most of family lives in/around New Orleans. I am very concerned.

I hope they're all OK. This is a nasty storm . . .

[Valleysboy1978]

Most of family lives in/around New Orleans. I am very concerned.

Keep us up to date with any news buddy. I'm sure they'll be fine

[eyeRmonkey]

The eye of the storm went right over my uncles house, but he had gone to Alabama a couple days ealier to get out of the path of the storm. My cousin is moving north (to live with my other cousin) because the place where he was working is closed and he has to find a job.

[Cander]

Thanks everyone. I just got word that everyone is ok. 1 of my aunts however has lost everything. Their house is completely gone.

My mother luckily didnt live where they used to which was right on the Mississippi river. I saw pictures of that area and its completely submerged.

So sad.

[Valleysboy1978]

Thanks everyone. I just got word that everyone is ok. 1 of my aunts however has lost everything. Their house is completely gone.

My mother luckily didnt live where they used to which was right on the Mississippi river. I saw pictures of that area and its completely submerged.

So sad.

At least she's alive dude, something to be thankful for as property can be replaced in time. Glad to hear they are all alive though

Thanks for the update.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Thanks everyone. I just got word that everyone is ok. 1 of my aunts however has lost everything. Their house is completely gone.

My mother luckily didnt live where they used to which was right on the Mississippi river. I saw pictures of that area and its completely submerged.

So sad.

I went through that last year. My 99 year old grandmother, and elderly aunt were right in the path of Charlie. It's all just a giant game of roulette (with the storm being the wheel) in that part of the country. I always wanted a storm while I lived down there, but then, I had nothing to lose.

I did try to convince my landlady that she really had to get out of the Florida Keys if a Cat 3 or above was aimed at them. She didn't understand the concept of the storm surge, thought it was just big waves.

I'm amazed that the most serious damage to NO may be happening AFTER the storm.

[MrPolite]

umm excuse my ignorance... but do these storms usually harm certain cities? or is it always random?

[dglienna]

I can't believe all the people that stayed. They were arresting looters an hour after the storm hit. Other people were drowning in their attic. I guess that all we can do is to hope for the best, but I'd have been the first one out, if I got the chance. How about the people that were in the dome that got hit? They're getting bussed to somewhere else. What a mess!

[yrwyddfa]

umm excuse my ignorance... but do these storms usually harm certain cities? or is it always random?

As a general rule, the storms are 'born' just to the west of Africa. They float westwards picking up energy from warm near equatorial seas making landfall somewhere in or around the Gulf Of Mexico/Caribbean.

They become more frequent in around a 40 year cycle(1920/1960/2000) Not much is understood why this should be the case. There are erroneous 'facts' cycling around about global warming, and El Nino, but there's no evidence to support that either makes the frequency of Cat4/5 storms increase.

As for is it random? The answer is no. The storms follow the laws of physics (thermodynamics/hyrdodynamics) like everything else. Like most weather phenomena it's reasonable easy to produce mesoscale forecasts (it's heading for the carribean) but at a local level (it's heading for New Orleans) it's extremely difficult.

[yrwyddfa]

I went through that last year. My 99 year old grandmother, and elderly aunt were right in the path of Charlie. It's all just a giant game of roulette (with the storm being the wheel) in that part of the country. I always wanted a storm while I lived down there, but then, I had nothing to lose.

I did try to convince my landlady that she really had to get out of the Florida Keys if a Cat 3 or above was aimed at them. She didn't understand the concept of the storm surge, thought it was just big waves.

I'm amazed that the most serious damage to NO may be happening AFTER the storm.

Yeah a storm surge is bad news.

Most people think that a storm surge is caused by winds whipping the water up. This might be moderately true in some cases.

In Katrina the storm surge was caused by the intense low pressure of the system itself.

High, and Low pressure is essentially a measure of how much vertical atmosphere there is above a given point. Clearly if you have high pressure the water beneath is compressed. The opposite is true for low pressure.

We, here in the UK, occasionaly (once a century) get a low pressure system moving across Scotland, and then South down the North Sea. The simple pressure change has contributed to storm surges along the east/south-east coast of England of up to four metres. People perish every time.

[Valleysboy1978]

I drives me insane watching some of these reports.
One guy in New Orleans was on tv and said "It was horrible, I was in the living room when the eye passed over. I ran into the basement which filled up with water. I almost died, it was terrifying"
THEN WHY WERE YOU THERE YOU IDIOT??????!!!!!

They are warned that a hurricane is on its way, evacuate now. I would pack up as much stuff as possible and go up north to New York for the weekend. Why in the world would someone want to stay in a wood house while a category 5 (although later a cat 4) hurricane is on its way!?! WHY??? WHYYYYYY????

[yrwyddfa]

I drives me insane watching some of these reports.
One guy in New Orleans was on tv and said "It was horrible, I was in the living room when the eye passed over. I ran into the basement which filled up with water. I almost died, it was terrifying"
THEN WHY WERE YOU THERE YOU IDIOT??????!!!!!

They are warned that a hurricane is on its way, evacuate now. I would pack up as much stuff as possible and go up north to New York for the weekend. Why in the world would someone want to stay in a wood house while a category 5 (although later a cat 4) hurricane is on its way!?! WHY??? WHYYYYYY????

It has to be lack of education. Some people, I presume, do not understand what a Cat5 storm is, and are therefore not concerned enough to take the warnings seriously.

[yrwyddfa]

Valley: If I told you that a MCS (Mesoscale Convective System) combining with frontogenesis, and a weak cold-front was just about the occur over your house, would you:

(i) Stay indoors
(ii) Ignore me, and go outside.

[Valleysboy1978]

Valley: If I told you that a MCS (Mesoscale Convective System) combining with frontogenesis, and a weak cold-front was just about the occur over your house, would you:

(i) Stay indoors
(ii) Ignore me, and go outside.

I would get onto the net asap and check out what it was. If it is a threat I would go somewhere safe, like a family or friends house. My life is not something I would risk. Besides, a hurricane is ever so slightly better known that an MCS.

I would also likely be at risk from an MCS as my house is at the base of a large hill

[Valleysboy1978]

and come on, it's not like the US isn't experienced with hurricanes. They have around 6 of these every year, granted usually by Florida but still you'd think they would know enough about hurricanes to know this is something you just get out if its way

[yrwyddfa]

Yes I know I picked a rather extreme example to make my point.

This example is what happened in the atmosphere to cause the Birmingham tornado.

The point I meant to make was that meteorological classifications are generally meaningless to the lay-person.

Cat5 is meaningless. What is the category scale 1-20? If that was the case you'd stay put, assuming Cat5 was not the highest on the scale.

In my opinion there should be descriptive categories such as Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme.

if this was the case then everyone would listen when an 'Extreme' warning was issused. Even normal newscasters could convey the simple message that this thing is going to costs lives.

[Valleysboy1978]

When they informed the people of winds reaching 150mph, that should be clear enough. I certainly wouldn't want to stick around to see it. If I was a tourist there (was in Florida beginning of August) I wouldn't stick around. My friends and I were all in agreement that if a hurricane was coming we'd all rent a car and go up north for a week. It's just not worth the risk.
The Birmingham tornado was different because the so-called experts didn't predict it so there was no warning and no chance of evacuation.

[yrwyddfa]

The Birmingham tornado was different because the so-called experts didn't predict it so there was no warning and no chance of evacuation.

That's not true. TORRO (the UK authority for tornadoes) issued a warning 6 hours hence. The media just didn't report it . . .

[Valleysboy1978]

Says a lot about the media doesn't it, especially as it is surely their weather reporters responsibility to report a tornado in Birmingham. What are we paying our license for!?!

[yrwyddfa]

Says a lot about the media doesn't it, especially as it is surely their weather reporters responsibility to report a tornado in Birmingham. What are we paying our license for!?!

Actually national weather forecasting comes under a Statutory obligation from the government. The vast majority of data comes from the Met office which has a duty to provide the best value for the public purse. Only the BBC has the duty to report the weather. At their forecasts, at the best of times, is dumbed down beyond belief.

The BBC did mention tornadoes in their morning broadcast; but the locality, nor severity was not mentioned.

Amateur weather websites predicted a Midlands tornado from around 6am on the said morning.

[Valleysboy1978]

I'm surprised the BBC hasn't been criticised over it. I can just imagine their report

"...in Wales there will be sunny spells and in England there will be a tornado at some point today. Now back to the news."
The BBC obviously assume the British population has the relative intelligence of a poodle.

[yrwyddfa]

In their defence the vast majority of people don't even watch the weather, and when they do they just want to know is it going to be sunny enough today to have a BBQ.

They are somewhat beween a rock and a hard-place. License payers would go ape if they allocated 10 minutes for an indepth weather forecast.

Besides you can get reasonable forecasts if you listen to the shipping forecast on BBC Radio 4 - you're just never going to get it on prime-time tv.

[Valleysboy1978]

Still, even if they said there was a severe weather warning in Birmingham with a potential tornado that would be enough to raise peoples awareness. If they don't watch the weather well there's no much else the Beeb can do.

I suppose they may not want to cause widespread panic too. Tough call.

[yrwyddfa]

The problem with 'severe' weather warnings is that the Met Office (and hence the BBC) issue them all the time. It is indeed a rare occasion that we get severe weather events.

I would call 'Severe' what's happened in New Orleans, and not half an inch of surface water on the M4.

On the YrWyddfa Weather Extremity Scale (Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme) I would call it 'Notable'

The Birmingham tornado (on my scale) would probably be a 'Significant' event. The 1987 October storms I would call 'Exceptional'

[Valleysboy1978]

agreed

[yrwyddfa]

YrWyddfa Weather Extremity Scale

Notable/Significant/Exceptional/Severe/Extreme

Notable
Weather conditions may impeed normal day to day activities. Modern buildings remain intact. Care will be needed in some localised conditions

Significant
Weather conditions will impeed normal day to day activities. Some care may
need to be taken as conditions will present a danger to life. Modern buildings may sustain some minor damage

Exceptional
Day to day activities will be affected. Unless precautions are taken weather conditions will cause loss of life. Some modern buildings will sustain some damage

Severe
Some loss of life expected, modern buildings will be damaged

Extreme
Major loss of life expected, modern buildings will be destroyed

[Valleysboy1978]

Oh look! I'm laughing so much my sides are splitting

[yrwyddfa]

Tack Wales on teh end of that list

I'm not Welsh.

I find it difficult to find a sense of humour when signficant numbers of people are injured or dead.

The point of the conversation was to provide a better way of informing individuals so they could better save themselves.

Is that worth a joke?

[penagate]

I know you're not Welsh

I don't think there's any situation where it's worth losing your sense of humour, but seeing as it obviously upsets you, it's gone.

My sincerest condolences to those affected by the hurricane.

[techgnome]

worht a joke --- eeeeh... iffy at best. Sometimes that's the way to deal with tragedy.

Anyways... to answer some of the points brought up in this thread.... I only scanned through most of it, so this may be repeat info.

First up, the damage in NO was mostly a result of the levees busting, not so much from the hurricane itself. Most of the damage the hurricane did cause was in the Biloxi/Gulfport area where the eastern edge of the storm hit the hardest. That's also why alot of people were still holed up in their homes and such when the water started rising. No one expected the dams and levees (which had worked jsut fine in past years) to be breached. A lot of people under estimated the punch that Katrina would pack as well. Also, in order to get out of town, you have to BE ABLE to get out of town. There's a good number of people (I think that I heard 60% but it seems high) in the NO area are classified in the poverty level. Odds are they aren't going to have a car to get out of town with. And even if they did, *** are they going to go?

This is only the third Cat 5 hurricane (even though it was down graded at the last minute, it was only a thin line between the two) to hit land.

Yesterday Pres Bush flew over NO to look at the damage.... what about flying over Biloxi and seeing the entire neighboorhoods that are now gone. There was one vid that I saw that showed a street in Gulfport.... all that remained was the three steps leading up to each house. Everything else is gone.

What I want to know, and the thing that I haven't seen covered.... is all those people in the bayou.

But anyways, it's not just NO that was hit hard by this, the entire region has been dealt a pretty bad blow. It's going to take some time to recover, but it'll happen. I saw some plans last night on how they are going to get the h2o out of NO.... Seems kind of ingenous, and at the same time a little bit stupid. But it's crazy enough it just might work.

-tg

[yrwyddfa]

We, of course, get the reports of what's going on over here in England, but what's the feeling over there in the States?

Does this feel like an international event?

I can assure you that the sympathies of everyone I've talked to (England, Germany, Holland, Denmark) is with the US.

Politics (and whatever) don't come into it. We're talking about real people here in real trouble.

I'm disappointed that my own govt has not been a little more public about this.

[Malim]

Techgnome is right about the poverty level in New Orleans and the surrounding areas. These aren't people who can just load up the car and head to NY for what is estimated to be a two month period before they can return to their homes. Watch the news footage, there are many elderly and indigent refugees.

That said, there are people who had the means to evacuate and chose to ride the storm out. You will find that in every storm. Those are the stupid people. (Granted, most of them probably didn't expect the levees to break.)

[yrwyddfa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm

My God, what the hell is going on over there . . . .

[penagate]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4205074.stm

My God, what the hell is going on over there . . . .

Now that is just plain stupid. Looting, and shooting at a rescue vehicle? Uh, why on earth would anyone do that; for heaven's sake, it's an emergency...

Of course, we are probably only hearing about the minority cases that make it into the news. The vast majority of them are probably very cooperative, after all, it's their city that's being cleaned up; but sadly that's the way of the news that we don't get the full picture.

[Malim]

People are desperate. Conditions are terrible. Relief is slow in coming because of the flooding. A man climbed the Superdome rafters yesterday and jumped, commiting suicide. People are not acting in their right minds because of the devastation. Many haven't had any food or clean water since Monday. People are dying in the streets trying to evacuate. It's very, very desperate there right now.

[Valleysboy1978]

I understand that some people could not evacuate because of their situation.....then they should have gone to the safe zones, not stayed in their little shack
There will always be people who underestimate a hurricane, they are usually the dead ones.

What's likely is the rescue helicopter picked someone up, left and some nutter with a gun didn't like the fact they were left behind and decided "If I can't have the helicopter, nobody will". But let's leave the gun laws out of this discussion shall we?