Got laughed at for being a VB Programmer.

[techgnome]

I could put that I know C/C++ on my CV, and it might get me a first interview.... but I had better get weeded out in that first round. yrwyddfa, it sounds like I'd get past that first round of yours. Not so good.

We use that first interview to do a number of things. 1) Assess the person in gerneral. 2) Do they have the skill set we are looking for (this is something our HR dept has problems with) 3) Will they fit in here? This is more than just determining if they are a team-player or not. Our organization is _very_ flat, and while we have teams, we also have a lot of cases where the developer needs to have the ability to work alone, w/o supervision. So we have to find the right person with the right balance between the two. 4) Because of the flatness, there's no opportunity for coprorate ladder climbing. We've been through a couple of people who had problems with this issue and it created a lot of annimosity between them and the rest of the group.

Also if you are employing someone only untill that skillset dies... then you are doing them and yourself a great disservice, and I'd be out of a job in a few months. The ability (and willingness) to expand their skillset is a great asset. You can employ the typical C/C++ cermugeon who refuses to learn anything new, produces quality code punches in at 8am and leaves prompty at 5pm, but also gets the job done in a timely fassion. This person works well with the team as well as on his own. Or you can get some one who has some experience with C/C++, VB, does some SQL and wants to take up .NET. The quality of code is slightly below the cermugeon's, but is able to get it done, and works well with others.

Here, we're more likely to take that second person than the first. Mainly because it shows the willingness & ability to shift from one thing to another.

And generaly CVs are inflated at least 10%.

Tg

[yrwyddfa]

I could put that I know C/C++ on my CV, and it might get me a first interview.... but I had better get weeded out in that first round. yrwyddfa, it sounds like I'd get past that first round of yours. Not so good.

We use that first interview to do a number of things. 1) Assess the person in gerneral. 2) Do they have the skill set we are looking for (this is something our HR dept has problems with) 3) Will they fit in here? This is more than just determining if they are a team-player or not. Our organization is _very_ flat, and while we have teams, we also have a lot of cases where the developer needs to have the ability to work alone, w/o supervision. So we have to find the right person with the right balance between the two. 4) Because of the flatness, there's no opportunity for coprorate ladder climbing. We've been through a couple of people who had problems with this issue and it created a lot of annimosity between them and the rest of the group.

Also if you are employing someone only untill that skillset dies... then you are doing them and yourself a great disservice, and I'd be out of a job in a few months. The ability (and willingness) to expand their skillset is a great asset. You can employ the typical C/C++ cermugeon who refuses to learn anything new, produces quality code punches in at 8am and leaves prompty at 5pm, but also gets the job done in a timely fassion. This person works well with the team as well as on his own. Or you can get some one who has some experience with C/C++, VB, does some SQL and wants to take up .NET. The quality of code is slightly below the cermugeon's, but is able to get it done, and works well with others.

Here, we're more likely to take that second person than the first. Mainly because it shows the willingness & ability to shift from one thing to another.

And generaly CVs are inflated at least 10%.

Tg

I think you should reread my last post.

[techgnome]

I think you should reread my last post.

Okay, it's going to be like that is it?

Let me see if I can break it down... we may simply be missing each other's point.

When I hold interviews my attitude is that all programmers are born equal. Regardless of experience, or skillset, I always look at the person.

I think we both agree that you have to do this... personality certanly plays a part. But even if you have a sparkling personality, it won't matter if you can't get the job done.

Programming, inherently, is a very difficult task. M$ (and others) change what it is you need to know every few years. If you employ someone for their skillset you are potentially only employing them until that skillset dies (typically 6/7 years) Their skillset, for me, gets 'em initially through the door for interview.

The problem I had with this was "If you employ someone for their skillset you are potentially only employing them until that skillset dies" But hopefully that skill set will show if they have the capacity to change with the times, or if they are going to be a stick in the mud. If we have the choice between a hot-shot Vb6er or some one who knows both VB6 and C++ very well, we're more likely to look at the dual language person.

If you want a team member then you go for the person, and generally ignore his CV (his CV got him through the door, and that's about it)

But you can't ignore the CV all together. We are constantly battling HR in this area (although they are getting better). True, the CV doesn't show if the person is a team player or not - but in some cases it may be an indicator of a potential problem (4 jobs in the last 2 years?).

The caveat being that here he would need 'some' experience in n-tier VB6/COM+/SQL2k but then that would've been on his CV anyway.

But what is that experience? That's kinda where I was going with my last post... generaly what's on a CV is inflated anyhow, and you _*have*_ to somehow weed out those that aren't going to cut it. So how do you do it?

Tg

[yrwyddfa]

Nah. I wasn't being like that. I think we agree on most areas. The vast majority of CV's are inflated well beyond 10%. I think they're worthless.

At least if someone's managed to look at the job description, and then copy it's requirements on a CV then I'll get em in for the first interview.

That's when the "fun" starts.

Actually it's not fun at all. I find it the most distressing experience. I hate every aspect of it.

[szlamany]

Are we all saying the same thing? I'm having a hard time reading between the lines on this one...

I whole heartedly agree that a skill-set is a meaningless attribute - when compared to the ability itself - learning new skills is what it's all about. In the past 5 years my shop has become a T-SQL STORED PROCEDURE shop - the VB coding has nearly ceased! When I hired for this large project, I wanted SQL ability - but certainly didn't expect the huge swing into the T-SQL world that we are in now...

All programmers are not born equal - I can not agree to that point, though. Thinking outside the box - seeing logic in your mind - that's a talent that is rare in my opinion.

[yrwyddfa]

Are we all saying the same thing? I'm having a hard time reading between the lines on this one...

I whole heartedly agree that a skill-set is a meaningless attribute - when compared to the ability itself - learning new skills is what it's all about. In the past 5 years my shop has become a T-SQL STORED PROCEDURE shop - the VB coding has nearly ceased! When I hired for this large project, I wanted SQL ability - but certainly didn't expect the huge swing into the T-SQL world that we are in now...

All programmers are not born equal - I can not agree to that point, though. Thinking outside the box - seeing logic in your mind - that's a talent that is rare in my opinion.

Yeah. But I can't help but think about boxes . . .