Evolutionary Progress

[yrwyddfa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4708459.stm

Well, it looks like, finally, speciation has finally been observed.

[Wally Pipp]

I thought it was already shown with drosophilae?

[yrwyddfa]

I don't know to be honest. Dawkins said in one of his recent books that the whole process was yet to be observed.

[Wally Pipp]

a genetically new strain of drosophilae has been observed recently in test areas. I thought anyway.

[yrwyddfa]

Cool

Any links before I spend the next ten hours of my life sifting through irrelevant Google entries?

[yrwyddfa]

http://www.genetics.org/content/vol2...e4/index.shtml

[wossname]

Evolution makes Baby Jesus cry.

[yrwyddfa]

Contrary to popular opinion the concept of evolution does not preclude the existence of a creator.

After all, you will still need the original protocell capable of undergoing evolution before you can start. (LUCA: Last Universal Common Ancestor)

Where did the protocell come from?

(We've been here before, haven't we?)

[Wally Pipp]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3790531.stm

[yrwyddfa]

That's pretty amazing stuff IMO

[wossname]

evolution does not preclude the existence of a creator

Indeed, but common sense does

[yrwyddfa]

Common sense is very ill-defined. Your objection is noted but summarily dismissed into the annals of nothingness

[mendhak]

Humans affecting evolution:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050717...t_050717075953

Humans affecting evolution again:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...708_lotus.html

[Wally Pipp]

Evolution is a work in progress

[wossname]

Common sense is very ill-defined. Your objection is noted but summarily dismissed into the annals of nothingness

I'm used to that

I wasn't objecting though, merely opining.

[grilkip]

Contrary to popular opinion the concept of evolution does not preclude the existence of a creator.

After all, you will still need the original protocell capable of undergoing evolution before you can start. (LUCA: Last Universal Common Ancestor)

Where did the protocell come from?

(We've been here before, haven't we?)

And how was the creator created?

[wossname]

And how was the creator created?

Open Source

GNU (God's Not Unix)

[Wally Pipp]

evolutionoitulovevolutionoitulovevolutionoitulovevolutionoitulovevolutionoitulovevolutionoitulove

[mendhak]

Contrary to popular opinion the concept of evolution does not preclude the existence of a creator.

After all, you will still need the original protocell capable of undergoing evolution before you can start. (LUCA: Last Universal Common Ancestor)

Where did the protocell come from?

(We've been here before, haven't we?)

Yes we've been here, but much as in the case of marmite, we'll always stick (pun unintended) to one opinion of it.

[wossname]

Yes we've been here, but much as in the case of marmite, we'll always stick (pun unintended) to one opinion of it.

What did Marmite evolve from?

[mendhak]

Chocolate pudding. Don't believe the peanut butter junkies... they're all heathens.

[yrwyddfa]

And how was the creator created?

If there's a creator that is omnipresent, ominscent (and so forth) then he would have to exist outside of time for this to be true.

As we know time is a property of the universe. A finite dimensional universe. The creator only has to exist in another dimension not subject to time to have never have been created just always have been.

A similar question is what was there before the big bang. There was no before because time came into existence at the precise moment of the big bang.

[NotLKH]

There was no before because time came into existence at the precise moment of the big bang.

Physicists suggest there were many big bangs

[moeur]

If there's a creator that is omnipresent, ominscent (and so forth) then he would have to exist outside of time for this to be true.

And hence why we can never prove nor disprove the existence of said creator. And that is why the creator and creationism are religion and not science.

[grilkip]

And hence why we can never prove nor disprove the existence of said creator. And that is why the creator and creationism are religion and not science.

You're an American right? Is it true that some schools overthere teach creationism? Or does this only happen in private schools perhaps?

[moeur]

Is it true that some schools overthere teach creationism?

As far as I know, each time these zealots try to get it into the curriculum it gets struck down by a court or a school board. There are some school districts that no longer teach anything.

Now they are trying a new tact to get their religion into schools. It's called intelligent design.
http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_f...eationism2.asp

[grilkip]

As far as I know, each time these zealots try to get it into the curriculum it gets struck down by a court or a school board. There are some school districts that no longer teach anything.

Now they are trying a new tact to get their religion into schools. It's called intelligent design.
http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_f...eationism2.asp

Don't get me started on ID, our own minister of education (Christian-Democrat) suggested a while ago that it's something that has to be taken seriously. Thank -who knows who- the parliament disagreed.

It is indeed a mask for the same old creationism. Biblethumpers drive me mad.

[moeur]

Being a scientist, I feel very protective of the field. So it pisses me off when non-science people who know nothing about the scientific method try to further their agendas by promoting this pseudo-science crap.

This isn't limited to creationism but can include:
"alternative medicines"
Feng Shui
New Age "meta-physics"
Cell phones, artifical sweeteners and overhead powerlines cause cancer
etc.

[grilkip]

The worst thing about these people is that you cannot debate them, in the end they simply say: "I believe".

A christian once said {fingerpointing} to me that Christ died for my sins as well! {/fingerpointing} Great, thanks...

[Shaggy Hiker]

Well, tell them to thank the old boy when they see him. Bring him a bottle of wine or something.

As for speciation, I don't believe in it. The whole concept of species is one that was created back in the day when the animals were considered static creatures. If they are static, then you can fit each one into a nice little category, and all is well. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

In fish, there are any number of different hybrid possibilities. Some are sterile, but some are not. If two 'species' can cross, and can produce a viable offspring, are those two 'species' actually distinct, or are they one? However, any average visually equipped person would be able to look at these two species and say that they are obviously not the same. They SHOULD be in different categories. They don't normally reproduce either by temporal or spacial separation, and they appear and act differently. However, they can interbreed if we intervene.

The concept of species is OUR concept, it is not enshrined in the natural world itself. Therefore, speciation can be said to occur whenever we say it occurs. We made it up, we can make it mean whatever we want it to mean.

[moeur]

I don't mind people believing things as long as their beliefs don't affect me.
Someone can tell me I'm a sinner headed to hell all they want, but once they start to put their beliefs into law (as the Christian Fundamentalists try to do here) or force them on me (Islamic Fascists), then we have a problem.

But I digress...

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't mind people believing things as long as their beliefs don't affect me.
Someone can tell me I'm a sinner headed to hell all they want, but once they start to put their beliefs into law (as the Christian Fundamentalists try to do here) or force them on me (Islamic Fascists), then we have a problem.

But I digress...

I agree. I don't much like them attempting to force ignorance on our children, either.

[moeur]

I don't believe it. People are agreeing with me for a change. It feels wierd.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I don't believe it. People are agreeing with me for a change. It feels wierd.

Saying something rational must have felt even stranger

[moeur]

Saying something rational must have felt even stranger

Now that's more like it! It feels like home.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Just couldn't resist, hope you weren't too offended.

[mendhak]

Well, tell them to thank the old boy when they see him. Bring him a bottle of wine or something.

As for speciation, I don't believe in it. The whole concept of species is one that was created back in the day when the animals were considered static creatures. If they are static, then you can fit each one into a nice little category, and all is well. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

In fish, there are any number of different hybrid possibilities. Some are sterile, but some are not. If two 'species' can cross, and can produce a viable offspring, are those two 'species' actually distinct, or are they one? However, any average visually equipped person would be able to look at these two species and say that they are obviously not the same. They SHOULD be in different categories. They don't normally reproduce either by temporal or spacial separation, and they appear and act differently. However, they can interbreed if we intervene.

The concept of species is OUR concept, it is not enshrined in the natural world itself. Therefore, speciation can be said to occur whenever we say it occurs. We made it up, we can make it mean whatever we want it to mean.

Should I stop believing that the planets in our Solar System revolve around the sun?

[yrwyddfa]

I don't believe it. People are agreeing with me for a change. It feels wierd.

If you say something that makes sense then of course people will agree with you. You have succinctly said what the vast majority of us believe.

[yrwyddfa]

Should I stop believing that the planets in our Solar System revolve around the sun?

How can planets circle a flat Earth? It's nonsense

[moeur]

I don't believe in gravity; the Earth sucks.