[RESOLVED] Do Europeans hate the US or just Bush?

[Wally Pipp]

several solid reasons... then why did he send Colin Powell with his powerpoint presentation to the UN security council to convince all of us that Saddam was a threat to the region and the world?

I think the end justified the means. Geopolitical interests in the Middle East required no reason other than the one that would make the US look benevolent in the eyes of possible allies.

Do not kid yourself. If there was no suitable reason available, one would've been fabricated. In fact, I think that already happened.

[moeur]

You'd be laughing at us if we proposed to accept Mexico as the 51st state because you know how ridiculous it would be.

Actually there is a major movement over here to not make Mexico the 51st state but to give back California.

Yet you see no qualm in endorsing the accession of Turkey into the EU. And even then not because you truly believe it should belong in the EU but because Turkey is a strategic ally in the middle east.

Not because they are a strategic ally, but because they are a Democratic country and should be brought into the society of democratic countries. If the EU doesn't want to do it then they won't. We can only suggest just like you can only suggest we accept Mexico as one of our 51.

[yrwyddfa]

Not because they are a strategic ally, but because they are a Democratic country and should be brought into the society of democratic countries. If the EU doesn't want to do it then they won't.

I was under the impression we live on a globe, and that we're all people. I didn't realise that, by default, there is prejudice of a people based on the government of where they live.

Well, I, for one want no part of it.

[moeur]

Do not kid yourself. If there was no suitable reason available, one would've been fabricated. In fact, I think that already happened.

So, in your opinion, why did the US invade Iraq?

[Wally Pipp]

You really don't see the irony, do you? Amazing...

[moeur]

Yes, im sure killing thousands of innocent IRAQ's will not result in any of thier friends/familys from joining terrorist groups.

No question some will, but in the end the conversion of the Middle East can put an end to the cycle.

It is therefore unfortunate that the way these policies are portrayed to the world do not reflect this.

I'm curious, what policy beside Iraq fits this?

[moeur]

I didn't realise that, by default, there is prejudice of a people based on the government of where they live.

It's not a prejudice against a people, but against certain forms of government, Fascism, Totalitarianism, dictatorships...

[moeur]

You really don't see the irony, do you?

No I guess I missed it. But I was honestly asking for your opinion of why the US invaded Iraq. I've given mine.

[yrwyddfa]

Therefore by implication the people living under such regimes.

If you recall, Libya was brought under this 'confederate club' without weapons, without war, without death. It was all done quietly behind the scenes and without any fuss.

You don't have to bomb the hell out of country to change the way it is.

[yrwyddfa]

I'm curious, what policy beside Iraq fits this?

Global warming. But that's being argued in another thread . . .

[moeur]

If you recall, Libya was brought under this 'confederate club' without weapons, without war, without death. It was all done quietly behind the scenes and without any fuss.

hmm... I wonder if his fear of invasion had anything to do with it.

Anyway, It's been a great conversation with some obviously intelligent people, but it's 2:30am here so I'll be turning in.

[davebat]

No question some will, but in the end the conversion of the Middle East can put an end to the cycle.

Oh so you'll be converting the rest of the middle east after IRAQ. Where do you get this information from?

[yrwyddfa]

hmm... I wonder if his fear of invasion had anything to do with it.

I don't think the promotion of fear and death is particularly noble, either.

[Wally Pipp]

I should at some point indicate that some people are on my ignore list and as such I can't /won't see their individual post. Pity I can still see quotes though...

Ah well.

[Valleysboy1978]

People join terrorist groups because of common ideals. Once peaceful Iraqi people, who have no family left thanks to the recent invasion, will now join those terrorists because of their common hatred for the invasion. What a mess.

I agreed that Saddam should have been removed from power, but disagreed with how it was done. It should have been done covertly, and from behind the scenes. Then he could be taken in front of the UN council and tried for crimes against humanity. Then, again from behind the scenes, the UN could ensure that a democratic government replaced Saddam. This way Iraq would publically be seen as sorting their own country out, and the violence level would have been far less than a full scale war

[dglienna]

There were bomb threats today, and people were inconvenienced as they always are. Most of them arrived late to a social gathering. Some of them were late to work.

Too many people just deal with inconviences from day to day. If they lost a days (or an hours) pay, then it would really upset them. If their bosses absorbed the lost of wages (as many do) then the masses will only look the other way as further threats happen.

Somehow the shift has to occur.

People that don't get blown up have to see themselves as targets, that should be lucky if they lose a days pay, simply because that they are still alive.

We have to decide to stand together to fight those that are against us, and to do everything within our power to not let the bad guys win.

Get with it. Make yourself be heard! It's not too late until your're gone!

(my 2 cents, fwiw)

[NoteMe]

I don't know about Switzerland).

I am from Norway.....and Norway nor Switzerland is not even part of the European union. And last time I was in Greace I met a greak guy that didn't even know that Norway was a part of Europe because we are not a part of the EU. There is NO sutch thing as a united Europe. And can not be looked up on as ONE unit as american often thinks...

I hope that the media here is wrong and that "Europeans" aren't turning against the US.

There is still nothing called Europeans in debates like this. We don't all have siesta either...

Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.

Won't do it anymore. Doesn't seem like anyone understand it anyway. Last post..



- ØØ -

[Cander]

We Americans are all overweight, gun carrying, illiterate, war mongering rednecks.

And We = all the overly vocal Americans.

I hate alot of my own people, especially the ones that ***** about high gas prices yet continue to drive their SUV's that get 10 miles to the gallon. :-\

[Valleysboy1978]

We Americans are all overweight, gun carrying, illiterate, war mongering rednecks.

And We = all the overly vocal Americans.

I hate alot of my own people, especially the ones that ***** about high gas prices yet continue to drive their SUV's that get 10 miles to the gallon. :-\

Don't think I can say much that you haven't already Cander
Yeah, it does seem hypocritical on SUV (or 4x4s for the rest) drivers' part to complain about high fuel prices

[Cander]

Don't think I can say much that you haven't already Cander
Yeah, it does seem hypocritical on SUV (or 4x4s for the rest) drivers' part to complain about high fuel prices

And you know what is even better? We still pay less than most other countries.

Cry me a river.

[Valleysboy1978]

[MasterBlaster]

As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin. At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma. Two important aspects for any leader.

Also very imortant in nailing interns!

C'mon now we all you cousing remembers to chew his pretzels before swallowing them.

To the topic: Who cares? this is pointless.

[MasterBlaster]

I should at some point indicate that some people are on my ignore list and as such I can't /won't see their individual post. Pity I can still see quotes though...

Ah well.

I'm giving Wally the middle finger because he can't see me. neener neener neener! Whats up man!

[Jacob Roman]

If what you say is true then thats over 700 million liberals in europe and canada alone. I doubt many, if any are members of the democrat party though.

You then went on to say Liberals all have a one track mind, when the definition of a liberal is someone showing broad-mindedness and tolerant of change.

As you seem to be in the minority (Which you yourself suggested) then it is you who has the mental disorder.

In the minority? If that's true, then why did Bush get the most votes than any President in history? He won by the states as well as the electorial votes. It seems that the liberals are the minority. Matter of fact, that's one of the reasons why they lost the election. They target minorites. Blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, illegal immigrants, etc.

You need to take an American Government class it seems because the whole world doesn't revolve around Bush. You can't blame Bush for everything that goes on in the world. He's not an elected King nor a God. If you knew all the facts, you wouldn't be so liberal after all

[MasterBlaster]

In the minority? If that's true, then why did Bush get the most votes than any President in history? He won by the states as well as the electorial votes. It seems that the liberals are the minority. Matter of fact, that's one of the reasons why they lost the election. They target minorites. Blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, illegal immigrants, etc.

You forgot college students.

George Bush won in a landslide because Democrats the carry an IQ over 15 realized that John Kerry is an absolute retard. Sorry if I offended any retarded people out there, I realize you are smarter than John Kerry. There are just as many right wingers out there without a clue. Both parties are destroying our country and stomping on our basic rights. Personally I would understand if all of Europe hated the US(even though that is not the case). All they see are the morons we elected and the Left/Right wing radicals that support them on the news. That is the same thing we see of them. I think we should kill every one in the middle east and throw a big mixer party there for all of the Europeans and the Americans. That way we can all meet face to face on neutral ground and put these nasty stereotypes about each other away. Plus I hear gas is cheap so mabe we can have tractor rides or something cool at the party. Mabe NASCAR vs Formula One races. A nice game of sockball with Manchester U against the Pittsburg Steelers would be awesome.

[nemaroller]

Europe unfortunately is made up of mostly liberals. Then again, same holds true for Canada. There's nothing wrong with being a Democrat and opposing views, but if you have to be as Left-Wing as you can get, as all liberals are, and have a one track mind, bad mouthing Bush without knowing all the facts, and actually listening to the liberal media, then you need some serious help. Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.

The biggest misconception that people make, is how our government is run. Bush maybe the President, but he is not an elected king, and isn't in charge of everything that goes on in the country. Checks and Balances (read an American Government book if you wanna know more about it), is what prevents a President from having total control over the country. Another thing is that the government isn't allow to interfier with businesses. So you can't blame bush for high gas prices and what not, because he has nothing to do with it. He cannot be to blame for the deficit because 1) the deficit has been there since the 60's, and 2) the only people allowed to spend from it is Congress, not the President. So you can't bad mouth Bush unless you know the facts

There wasn't a deficit at the end of Clinton's term, there was surplus. Also, since 1960's when the deficits began, there have been only 3 democratic presidents - Johnson (6 yrs - brought the US out of much poverty), Carter (4yrs) and Clinton (8yrs - and he didn't have a deficit after he implemented changes). So point #1 is woefully wrong.

As per point #2, Congress from both segments is controlled by Republican majority. So its not that the Republicans spend any less money than Democrats. Additionally, lets not forget Bush has pushed for more spending since he took office - but he likes to borrow future money with interest so as not to piss off the current taxpayers. Yea... so I blame Bush 100%.

And don't EVER label 'liberalism' like its a bad thing, or you could still be plowing a field and giving 80% of your 'take' to some King or Lord. Liberal is a relative term... if your wife wore a bikini top to the general store back in 1920, she certainly would have been labeled a liberal. There's a balance between pushing for progress (liberals) and resting on your laurels (conservatives) that needs to be met, and we as a country certainly have leaned too conservative for our own good - relatively speaking .

[yrwyddfa]

And don't EVER label 'liberalism' like its a bad thing, or you could still be plowing a field and giving 80% of your 'take' to some King or Lord. Liberal is a relative term... if your wife wore a bikini top to the general store back in 1920, she certainly would have been labeled a liberal. There's a balance between pushing for progress (liberals) and resting on your laurels (conservatives) that needs to be met, and we as a country certainly have leaned too conservative for our own good - relatively speaking

Well said

[Valleysboy1978]

I agree MB, the only reason that Bush won a second term was because the opposition was an idiot. It was the same situation in Britain, everyone knew that Charles Kennedy and Michael Howard couldn't tie up their shoelaces without help! Didn't leave much choice.

[davebat]

In the minority? If that's true, then why did Bush get the most votes than any President in history? He won by the states as well as the electorial votes. It seems that the liberals are the minority. Matter of fact, that's one of the reasons why they lost the election. They target minorites. Blacks, hispanics, homosexuals, illegal immigrants, etc.

You need to take an American Government class it seems because the whole world doesn't revolve around Bush. You can't blame Bush for everything that goes on in the world. He's not an elected King nor a God. If you knew all the facts, you wouldn't be so liberal after all

I dont blame Bush for everything nor remember doing so. You go on about all the facts, but im sure if you had all the facts then you wouldnt be such a racist, homophobic right wing loony.

[yrwyddfa]

In the minority? If that's true, then why did Bush get the most votes than any President in history?

Is that because America has finally moved over to a mathematical system that uses Base 10 ?

[Valleysboy1978]

[simonm]

For what it's worth, those of you who think Bush is only despised from the left, think again. His policies are also derided from the right.

In a Financial Times article summarizing the results of his research, Frankel wrote:

"Since the 1960s, the Republican and Democratic administrations have switched places on economic policy. The pattern is so well established that the generalization can no longer be denied: the Republicans have become the party of fiscal irresponsibility, trade restriction, big government and bad microeconomics."

Surprisingly, Democrat presidents have, relatively speaking, become the proponents of fiscal responsibility, free trade, competitive markets and neoclassical microeconomics. This characterization sounds implausible. Certainly, it would not be recognizable from the two parties’ rhetoric. But compare the records of Presidents Carter and Clinton with those of Presidents Reagan, Bush senior and Bush junior. A simple look at the federal budget statistics shows an uncanny tendency for the deficit to rise during Republican presidencies.

Bush has the worst record for budget deficts in US history. Even worse than Reagan:

[Valleysboy1978]

Whoah! That's some sharp downward slope into deficit. Isn't 2000 in Bush Jrs reign?

[yrwyddfa]

So you can't bad mouth Bush unless you know the facts

Now we know the facts . . .

[Wally Pipp]

unless fiscal responsability has a different meaning in the US.

[Valleysboy1978]

Well done Bush! You've managed to turn a huge surplus into an even more massive deficit! Quite the impressive feat.

[Xanith]

I dont blame Bush for everything nor remember doing so. You go on about all the facts, but im sure if you had all the facts then you wouldnt be such a racist, homophobic right wing loony.

LOL thats on page 1 of the Left Wing handbook. Label people that disagree with you as racists and homophobes. How utterly stereotypical of you

You forgot to mention that we also love to starve children, ruin the environment, and give tax cuts only to the wealthy

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[Xanith]

For what it's worth, those of you who think Bush is only despised from the left, think again. His policies are also derided from the right.


Bush has the worst record for budget deficts in US history. Even worse than Reagan:

Actually yesterday the projection of the deficit was cut by 100 billion dollars due to an increase of 15% in tax revenues over last year. There is no doubt that Bush has incured substantial deficits since taking office. But one would have to take into account an inherited recession, 9/11 and the huge impact it had on the economy, and the effect of 2 on going wars.

X

[simonm]

Don't forget to mention that Bush has also drastically increased social security funding as well...

[Xanith]

I agree MB, the only reason that Bush won a second term was because the opposition was an idiot. It was the same situation in Britain, everyone knew that Charles Kennedy and Michael Howard couldn't tie up their shoelaces without help! Didn't leave much choice.

I find it funny that the 3 people that were all for the war in Iraq got re-elected in their respective countries, Bush in the US, Blair in the UK, and Howard in Austrailia. Could it be because most people agreed with their policies? Nahhh

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