[RESOLVED] Do Europeans hate the US or just Bush?

[moeur]

I'm amazed at the increased percieved hatred of the US ever since Bush took office.

His foriegn policies are very similar to Clinton's before him, but the Euro-attitude has changed negatively.

Is it just Bush's attitude, facial expressions or what?

[conipto]

We as a people elected the fool...

Bill

[moeur]

We as a people elected the fool...

Which one: Clinton?

[Jacob Roman]

Europe unfortunately is made up of mostly liberals. Then again, same holds true for Canada. There's nothing wrong with being a Democrat and opposing views, but if you have to be as Left-Wing as you can get, as all liberals are, and have a one track mind, bad mouthing Bush without knowing all the facts, and actually listening to the liberal media, then you need some serious help. Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.

The biggest misconception that people make, is how our government is run. Bush maybe the President, but he is not an elected king, and isn't in charge of everything that goes on in the country. Checks and Balances (read an American Government book if you wanna know more about it), is what prevents a President from having total control over the country. Another thing is that the government isn't allow to interfier with businesses. So you can't blame bush for high gas prices and what not, because he has nothing to do with it. He cannot be to blame for the deficit because 1) the deficit has been there since the 60's, and 2) the only people allowed to spend from it is Congress, not the President. So you can't bad mouth Bush unless you know the facts

[moeur]

Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.

Savage

[Jacob Roman]

Savage

Mike Savage himself, yep

[RobDog888]

I think they may be relating the war in Iraq with Bush (obviously) and maybe now with the recent bombings
in London they may think differently. Do you thnk they will generally support the war more? If they dont want to get any more
waves of terrorism then perhaps Bush may start to pick up in popularity.

[moeur]

But what I don't understand, is why they use the war in Iraq as a reason, but nobody seemed to care when we went into Kosovo during Clinton's terms. BTW we're still there.

[Jacob Roman]

Here are the facts everyone. We are not fighting just Iraqis terrorists in Iraq. We are fighting terrorists from many nations in Iraq. Just that Iraq ended up being a battle ground. And we got troops in Afghanastan, and other Middle Eastern countries as well, hunting down the FBI's most wanted terrorists. So far we captured nearly 80% of the main ones.

Osama Bin Laden is so much of a wuss, that he fled into Pakistan, which is where US troops are not allowed because it would affect relations between us, and might start a war if violated.

[RobDog888]

I say just bomb all along the border and we should get him, if bombed enough.

[Jacob Roman]

"Nuke em....Get them before they get you!" -Cheesy commercial in the movie Robocop

[CORONA BEER]

try this , http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3300

[moeur]

I say just bomb all along the border and we should get him, if bombed enough.

Enough bombs might get him and some other evil people too, but that slime is not worth the innocent lives that bombing would cost.

As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.

As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way.

[mendhak]

Do Europeans hate the US or just Bush?

They hate just Bush, but are jealous of the U.S.


I'll be in hiding in case any of you start looking for me.

[NoteMe]

Do Europeans hate the US or just Bush?

Here we go again....there is NOTHING called everyone in Europe....It's like saying. Does everyone in the world like Fish and Cowboy boots. Grrrrrrrrrr....stops trying to make all the countries in Europe look the same. They are so freaken different....

[Wally Pipp]

Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.

[davebat]

Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.

After reading through all the posts, this one and Noteme's are the only two that make any sense. Good advice.

[moeur]

Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.

who are "these people"
people with informed opinions that differ from yours?

Yes, let's not waste our breath...
Let's hang with our own; people who agree with us.
Let's not even listen to what others have to say, it's not important because it's not our opinion.

[Valleysboy1978]

As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.

As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way.

This is why many Europeans (not including myself) hate both the US AND Bush. You are perceived as arrogant by not admitting that other countries helped with the war in Iraq (UK, Denmark, Spain, Italy....) and that is disrespectful to the soldiers from those countries that died in this war.

As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin. At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma. Two important aspects for any leader.

As for being jealous of the US? Hardly. Wouldn't particularly like to live in a country with such readily available guns and where school shootings by a student is becoming increasingly frequent.
And if I was that jealous of the US.....I'd be living there wouldnt I!?!

[Valleysboy1978]

who are "these people"

I think he is referring to the people of North America

[moeur]

there is NOTHING called everyone in Europe

So true, however, more and more Europe is starting to look like a large country. Like any other large country, there is a lot of diversity.

What I was referring to in my original post was the perception that we get here in the US. Admittedly this perception is coming from a somewhat flawed media.

When I watch the news or read the news papers, I often see protests against the US, interviews with the populace that have anti-US opinions and polling data that seems to suggest that hatred for the US exists in a majority of citizens of most European countries, most notably France and Germany (I don't know about Switzerland).

I hope that the media here is wrong and that "Europeans" aren't turning against the US.

[Wally Pipp]

no, referring to a certain type of people who are unfortunately in abundance in the US, namely the pig-ignorant arrogant hyperpatriotic blowhard.

They come and go around the fora and it's best not to waste too many time on them.

[mendhak]

This is why many Europeans (not including myself) hate both the US AND Bush. You are perceived as arrogant by not admitting that other countries helped with the war in Iraq (UK, Denmark, Spain, Italy....) and that is disrespectful to the soldiers from those countries that died in this war.

As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin. At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma. Two important aspects for any leader.

As for being jealous of the US? Hardly. Wouldn't particularly like to live in a country with such readily available guns and where school shootings by a student is becoming increasingly frequent.
And if I was that jealous of the US.....I'd be living there wouldnt I!?!

My apologies, I was joking. Trying a little back-humor...

I'll practice and do better next time.

[moeur]

... namely the pig-ignorant arrogant hyperpatriotic blowhard. They come and go around the fora and it's best not to waste too many time on them.

Yes, I see there is one in this forum.

[davebat]

Yes, I see there is one in this forum.

I think he's referring to you. How can you deny it when you say things like:

"As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.

As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way."

[moeur]

This is why many Europeans (not including myself) hate both the US AND Bush. You are perceived as arrogant by not admitting that other countries helped with the war in Iraq (UK, Denmark, Spain, Italy....) and that is disrespectful to the soldiers from those countries that died in this war.

I did no such thing and neither does Bush. I don't know how many times he has thanked the countries who have help us with this important task. And I will be the first to buy a drink for any who served to show my gratitude when I meet one.

As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin.

Your cousin must be pretty smart to have earned a Masters degree from Harvard at 5! This point regarding bush is just silly rhetoric.

At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma.

ya, you might say he had a lot of spunk As a leader he was pretty much a failure, however.

[moeur]

I think he's referring to you. How can you deny it when you say things like:

"As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.

As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way."

I started this thread in an earnest attempt to solicit opinion, not to bait. I am assuming that everyone posting here is giving me there honest opinion and I will give mine.

I am truly interested in what part of my above statement you find "pig-ignorant, arrogant, hyperpatrioti, or blowhard".

[davebat]

You didnt start this to find out if europeans hate bush or like him. You asked us why we hate him.

[Valleysboy1978]

As a leader he was pretty much a failure, however.

Would disagree. It was only after Bush became President that anti-US feeling began to increase so much. He is not a good figure-head for the US. The only problem is that with a two party system you didn't have much choice as that other idiot was even worse!

As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.

As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way.

You did no such thing?
"Worlds only superpower?" The combined nations of the UN are far superior
"awesome power" - again the UN nations are more powerful
"only power with the ability" - Hmmm, seeing a recurring motif here
"innocents that get in our way" - !?!

The whole problem with Bush was that he didn't come up with any solid reason to invade Iraq. Now he has stirred up a real hornets nest in the Middle East as they see the US as self-proclaimed cleaners (which you yourself have said). They are simply asking, what gives you the right to decide if a country needs "cleaning up". The US and UK I think was right to stop Saddam but they went about it completely the wrong way and should have been more patient and more meticulous in their planning for possible insurgents

[Wally Pipp]

See Dave, there's no point in wasting time and energy on them.

[moeur]

You didnt start this to find out if europeans hate bush or like him. You asked us why we hate him

I did admit that I may have misconceptions and there really is not a lot of US bashing over there.

[Valleysboy1978]

I would agree with Note though. Please don't assume that Europe is simply one country.
Each individual country has their own governmental system (communist, republican, monarchy, democratic etc), many with their own currencies and own history. Most will also be generally offended by being called European.
As for myself I would very much like to see the UK leave the EU as soon as humanly possible. It is becoming far too large and far too influential on the member countries. The EU should only ever have been an alliance of countries.

But enough of my rambling
Do Europeans hate the US? Many resent the US and what it stands for but hate? No.
Do we hate Bush? Oh hell yeah! But no more than most American residents do, or probably less as we don't have to put up with him too much

[yrwyddfa]

The US has a profoundly overstated influence on the world stage. It's foreign policies are designed for it's internal use, and for the benefit of Americans and no-one else.

It's difficult to anthropomorphise an abstract policy so this dislike is mapped to those who created the policy, and those that support it.

[moeur]

Thankyou Valleysboy for your honest response.

Would disagree. It was only after Bush became President that anti-US feeling began to increase so much. He is not a good figure-head for the US.

So you would say that people really hate Bush and if we elect another liberal president like Clinton the everyone will be happy again?

The UN... better yet, you could imagine certain alliances between countries that would be very powerful indeed. These alliances, however don't exist right now and I can't imagine the UN could create them.

innocents that get in our way

This is perhaps an unfortunate use of words, but depicts reality. Consider Iraq, thousands of innocent civilians dead. Why? Simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. My point was that the US does what it can to minimize those deaths short of compromising the mission.

The whole problem with Bush was that he didn't come up with any solid reason to invade Iraq

Bush gave several solid reasons for going into Iraq. Most people focus only on the WMD arguments. The main reason we went in, however, was to begin the transformation of the Middle East to an area that will not so easily breed terrorists.

Who gave us the right to be self-proclaimed cleaners - this is a question that is asked every day of the conflict and for many months before. The only answer is that we feel that our national security depends on ridding the world of these regimes that spawn terrorism.

I also personally think that any country has as much right to take the leadership of a country away from someone like Saddam who himself took it by force.

[moeur]

Do we hate Bush? Oh hell yeah! But no more than most American residents do, or probably less as we don't have to put up with him too much

Would it suprise you to know that more Americans voted for Bush in the last election than for any other President in US history?

So, What I've got is Bush hated comes from percieved Arrogance and Ingnorance.

It's funny, but I remember the same things were said about Reagan.

[davebat]

Europe unfortunately is made up of mostly liberals. Then again, same holds true for Canada. There's nothing wrong with being a Democrat and opposing views, but if you have to be as Left-Wing as you can get, as all liberals are, and have a one track mind, bad mouthing Bush without knowing all the facts, and actually listening to the liberal media, then you need some serious help. Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.

If what you say is true then thats over 700 million liberals in europe and canada alone. I doubt many, if any are members of the democrat party though.

You then went on to say Liberals all have a one track mind, when the definition of a liberal is someone showing broad-mindedness and tolerant of change.

As you seem to be in the minority (Which you yourself suggested) then it is you who has the mental disorder.

[Wally Pipp]

The US has a profoundly overstated influence on the world stage. It's foreign policies are designed for it's internal use, and for the benefit of Americans and no-one else.

It's difficult to anthropomorphise an abstract policy so this dislike is mapped to those who created the policy, and those that support it.

And certainly not generalise it.

You'd be laughing at us if we proposed to accept Mexico as the 51st state because you know how ridiculous it would be.
Yet you see no qualm in endorsing the accession of Turkey into the EU. And even then not because you truly believe it should belong in the EU but because Turkey is a strategic ally in the middle east.

However hard the Eurocrats are trying to convince you, there's no such thing as the common European. Even suggesting that you believe there is or might be is a testament of your profound lack of knowledge of Europe and indeed the world.

[moeur]

The US has a profoundly overstated influence on the world stage.

This may be true as the US influence grows smaller as India and China grow bigger.

It's foreign policies are designed for it's internal use, and for the benefit of Americans and no-one else.

For the benefit of Americans yes; but we truly believe that most things that benefit the US benefit the world. But, this tendency toward self benefit exists in all countries.

[davebat]

Bush gave several solid reasons for going into Iraq. Most people focus only on the WMD arguments. The main reason we went in, however, was to begin the transformation of the Middle East to an area that will not so easily breed terrorists.

Yes, im sure killing thousands of innocent IRAQ's will not result in any of thier friends/familys from joining terrorist groups.

[yrwyddfa]

This may be true as the US influence grows smaller as India and China grow bigger.

For the benefit of Americans yes; but we truly believe that most things that benefit the US benefit the world. But, this tendency toward self benefit exists in all countries.

It is therefore unfortunate that the way these policies are portrayed to the world do not reflect this.