Indianapolis F1 race yesterday [Serious]

[wossname]

What did you guys think of the race yesterday? I thought it was a massive waste of time, an insult to the fans and a catastrophically bad bit of pedantry.

Michelin messed up with the types (ie. they kept exploding on the home straight) but the organisers refused to build a chicane on the track to slow the race down to a speed that the tyres could tolerate. This chicane could have been built in a couple of hours but for some reason this never occured. The Michelin runners were willing to opt out of being able to score points for this race (Bridgestone runners would have raced as normal but with the handicap of an extra chicane).

If I had been there I would have demanded my money back (not that I would be legally entitled to it though).

What do you lot think?

[NoteMe]

I didn't see it, but read about it in the news this morning. I can't understand why they didn't allow them to change tires. Michelin got a new set of tires from Europe. But FIA wouldn't allow the teams to change. Well, lets keep F1 in Erope next year..



ØØ

[agmorgan]

The Bridgestone runners have been penalised in previous races for being too conservative, Michelin are being penalised for being too aggressive.

That said, not giving any of the Michelin runners points would probably have been the best way since a proper race would have happened and the championship points would have been the same.

Assuming that none of the Bridgstone cars got knocked out of the race.

However, it did make good soap opera viewing.

And you can say to your grandkids "! remember back at the beginning of the century only 6 cars raced at Indy"

[Valleysboy1978]

The chicane would have taken 20-30 minutes to add as it is only a bit of plastic bolted to the floor. The problem was that all 9 teams (including Jordan & Minardi) were happy with it to be added, but Ferrari used their veto to stop it from happening....so the chicane could not be added unless Ferrari agreed to it (and with their current record they knew they'd get 18 easy points).

The problem was that Bernie Ecclestone (a 1st class w****r) didn't have the courage to overrule Ferrari and include the chicane for the good of the sport. Too much politics and not enough regard for the fans.

It just shows that F1 is about the money, not the race. There will never again be a race at Indianapolis (oh yes, and as for driver safety concerns they were also worried about the fans because when Ralf Schumacher crashed during the practice session bits of shrapnel flew into the area where the crowd would be so they were also concerned about the fans' safety)

[wossname]

The new regulations only allow 1 set of tyres per race. If they let them change tyres this time then the whole championship would be null & void.

They should at least have had a "friendly match" instead, let all the teams wear whatever rubber they wanted and just give the fans something to see instead of 6 cars pootling around Indy at cruising pace for a couple of hours.

A bunch of fans kept throwing full ber cans onto the circuit, several of them being run over by the cars!!! Imagine a pint of stella hitting your visor at 200 mph

[Valleysboy1978]

Serves Ferrari right. They shouldn't have been so selfish and should have allowed the chicane for the good of the race. They knew this would be the only way for them to win points at Indy

[penagate]

You can't override the rules just because someone stuffed up. Michelin made a big mistake and it was completely their fault that we had a stinker of an event (I'm not even going to call it a race). They failed to have any safe tyres despite the fact that they are supposed to bring two compounds to every race, at least one of which is supposed to be guaranteed to be reliable if at the expense of performance. For that they may be liable for disciplinary action by the FIA, but in the interests of teh sport that probably won't happen. Having said all that though, I would have thought a case like this was force majeur if anything is, but it seems the FIA didn't agree and they are within their rights there.

I honestly couldn't believe my eyes when I saw 6 cars taking the start, I thought the stand-off would fizzle out and a solution would be reached like it always seems to be, but this case no-one stood up and actually said "We're going to do this full stop", instead they deliberated and argued and in the end Michelin made complete fools of themselves. It was a utter farce of an event.

A bunch of fans kept throwing full ber cans onto the circuit, several of them being run over by the cars!!! Imagine a pint of stella hitting your visor at 200 mph

I can understand their frustration completely but that is no way to vent it, it was extremely dangerous and put both the drivers and the marshals at unnecessary risk.

[Valleysboy1978]

What I was amazed at was that Minardi and Jordan at least had the honour to agree to the chicane being put in....only Ferrari disagreed because they knew that the other teams would have to pull out. My opinion of Ferrari has lessened even more after yesterday, they have no care for the sport, only for their pockets.

[penagate]

The FIA said there would be no alterations to the track anyway. But what I found most disappointing was when it was just getting exciting between the two Ferraris, they were told to cruise to the finish instead of racing. That was just a final insult added to the injury.

[DeadEyes]

I think the Jordan team have a lot to answer for, if they had of stayed out of it then so would Minardi. These two teams are in direct competition with each other and allowing one to get a load of points would have killed the other team.
So if Jordan had stayed out then so would Manardi, that would have left only Ferrai on the grid and then surely the race would have been called off.
Still this is a another blow for F1. A couple of boring seasons with Schumacher winning all the time and now this farce. I think this could be the end of F1 in America, would you run the risk of spending your money on a non event.

[Valleysboy1978]

I agree. The only chance of it being in America will be in Vegas because they were already planning a race there. They will never race in Indianapolis again, as the course organisers will have lost a LOT of money

[JPicasso]

I just read a couple of news reports on this.

Here's an American's take.


European sports are silly.

[Valleysboy1978]

Only because the Americans cannot beat us at them
I will admit it was very satisfying when Wales thrashed the US at rugby a few weeks ago

[agmorgan]

Ferrari didn't veto anything.

The FIA (Max Mosely in fact) disallowed the proposed track changes.

Changing tyres would be going against 5 new 2005 rules which have restricted Ferrari somewhat this season anyway.

Michelin were given the option to run with penalties imposed, but they refused.

Ferrarri did nothing wrong. It was Michelin and the FIA who caused the problem and couldn't resolve it respectively.

[JPicasso]

Actually, the more I read the more I can respect the FIA and the race in general.

Here are the rules.
We follow them.
Race, or get the H3!! out.

I'll have to try and check this out if they televise another event.



We have a rugby team?

[Valleysboy1978]

Yep, the "Eagles"
They are pretty good considering most only play amateur rugby but unfortunately for them they came up against a Wales team looking for blood: USA 3-77 Wales
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...sh/4605969.stm

[Pc_Madness]

Michelin were given the option to run with penalties imposed, but they refused.

Ferrarri did nothing wrong. It was Michelin and the FIA who caused the problem and couldn't resolve it respectively.

My understanding was that Ferrarri refused to agree to any compromise to try and get the rest of the teams out of the track, while the rest of the teams were all for it. I didn't think Michelin had any options in racing? It merely supplies the tyres and said they weren't up for it. Its up to the teams to decide if they want to get penalised. And on the point that Michelin is supposed to bring two sets of tyres, would the teams have been able to change to the other type anyway without a penalty? Doubt it somehow.

I don't know what the corner in question looks like, but I was kinda given the impression that it was one of those banked corners like in the Nascar races, so perhaps Michelin just didn't consider it when making the tyre (there aren't any other corners like it in F1?)

[dglienna]

They should have realized it during qualifying. They get plenty of practice laps. If the tires were bad, the teams could have switched them before they qualified, but rules don't allow change after the fact. Rules are rules.
Just too bad that someone dropped the ball, as it were.

[|2eM!x]

id like to see a replay of the start...anyone got a clip?

[Pc_Madness]

They should have realized it during qualifying. They get plenty of practice laps. If the tires were bad, the teams could have switched them before they qualified, but rules don't allow change after the fact. Rules are rules.
Just too bad that someone dropped the ball, as it were.

I thought it was one set of tires for the entire race weekend, thus from the second they head out on the track to the finish?

[Valleysboy1978]

Correct, one set of tyres per race and yes the corner is the banked NASCAR corner

Also, Bridgestone's sister company Firestone were at that race track a few weeks ago with another race (can't remember which one) so they found out first hand that the US track was diamond cut to have grooves throughout the track. This made the wear and tear on the tyres far more severe which is why the Michelin tyres would have worn away so much more quickly.....Bridgestone had fore-warning.

Perhaps if the US course had kept to the surface type for F1 there would have been a race?? Who knows.

[penagate]

id like to see a replay of the start...anyone got a clip?

I'll post one once I've got it down to a managable size

[Valleysboy1978]

This is unbelievable...they FIA is blaming the seven teams, not Michelin. They should be blaming themselves!
The FIA are saying they would allow the seven teams to have speed restrictions on the one corner. WHAT!
So as Renault, McLaren, Williams etc are going around this corner at 80mph Ferrari zips around at 220mph!! Oh yeah, that is FAAAAR safer!

[penagate]

Some links on all this

Official FIA statement
Ferrari team boss Jean Todt's comments
FIA summons teams to World Motorsport Council hearing in Paris
List of FIA charges against the Michelin teams

About the slowing down, I believe Jean Todt suggested the Mich teams could have gone through the pit lane on each lap... but then of course some drivers would skip it to gain an advantage, and then everyone would do it, and it would be no safer. Really, when you think about all the possiblities, pulling out was the safest option.

[penagate]

Here's the replay of the start

Video WMV 3m02s, 3.37MiB

Sorry about the crappy quality, I wanted to get most of the formation lap in as well as keep the file size down

[|2eM!x]

thx man, ill check it out now

[honeybee]

Ferrari didn't veto anything.

The FIA (Max Mosely in fact) disallowed the proposed track changes.

Changing tyres would be going against 5 new 2005 rules which have restricted Ferrari somewhat this season anyway.

Michelin were given the option to run with penalties imposed, but they refused.

Ferrari did nothing wrong. It was Michelin and the FIA who caused the problem and couldn't resolve it respectively.

I think more than Michelin (as in the tyre manufacturer), the teams running on Michelin tyres are to blame for the fiasco. The tyre rules have already troubled Ferrari throughout this season, but they haven't complained about it yet. So I can't see why others should complain and whine about rules being strictly followed when they are stupid enough to use the wrong tyres.

To those blaming Ferrari, I don't remember Ferrari using their weight to force a change of rules as far as tyres are concerned. The only real point of debate is the amount of money being spent and I don't see anything wrong unless the money were to be used to bribe officials and other such anti-sport activities. They are using the money on R & D and innovation which shouldn't call for any destructive criticism.

Wouldn't changing the track at the last moment without allowing the teams to practice on it endanger the drivers?? What do you think they hold the practice and qualifying laps for??

If the Michelin teams were really worried about the sport, as they are claiming now, they would have run with reduced speeds. Why were they not ready to accept any solution other than a chicane? Because they too cared about the race and not the sport. They knew Ferrari would walk away with the top honours because they had the right tyres, and didn't want to lose their own standings because of their own stupidity, so they decided to make it a prestige issue and blame it on Ferrari and Bernie. When they have clearly not discharged their own obligation of bringing another set of tyres, they shouldn't be talking about sport and fans. What the FIA did was the right thing, and the only reason I can think of for not banning these teams from the sport is it would actually take away the competition.

I think the single tyre rule was introduced to allow the other teams to catch up with Ferrari who have dominated the last few seasons and we can already see the effects of the rule with Ferrari struggling in the championship so far. They don't complain about these rule changes at all. Aren't they actually discharging their duties better than the other teams? Focus on the sport and not on politics??

Why should Jordan join the other teams in the protest? They haven't done anything wrong, and by initially siding with the other teams they were only showing team spirit and nothing else. There's no reason why they should boycott the race. They are still the minions and every race is going to give their drivers some valuable experience and a chance to improve. To say they should just throw it all away and waste it is just stupid.

.

[honeybee]

This is unbelievable...they FIA is blaming the seven teams, not Michelin. They should be blaming themselves!
The FIA are saying they would allow the seven teams to have speed restrictions on the one corner. WHAT!
So as Renault, McLaren, Williams etc are going around this corner at 80mph Ferrari zips around at 220mph!! Oh yeah, that is FAAAAR safer!

Well they should have brought the correct tyres. When the FIA specifies that every team must have two sets of tyres, one of which must be reliable for every track, the teams clearly forgot this point. Maybe they were overconfident about their Michelins gaining an upper hand over Ferrari's Bridgestones.

Serves them right!

.

[honeybee]

My understanding was that Ferrarri refused to agree to any compromise to try and get the rest of the teams out of the track, while the rest of the teams were all for it. I didn't think Michelin had any options in racing? It merely supplies the tyres and said they weren't up for it. Its up to the teams to decide if they want to get penalised. And on the point that Michelin is supposed to bring two sets of tyres, would the teams have been able to change to the other type anyway without a penalty? Doubt it somehow.

I don't know what the corner in question looks like, but I was kinda given the impression that it was one of those banked corners like in the Nascar races, so perhaps Michelin just didn't consider it when making the tyre (there aren't any other corners like it in F1?)

Read the Ferrari boss' comments posted in a link above. It's not Ferrari's fault some cars can't take that corner. He is absolutely right in saying they wouldn't have agreed to any compromise. Just as Ferrari wouldn't be allowed to install a chicane or two, or run three qualifying laps so their tyres could get a better grip.

Add to that the fact that the teams had already received notice about paying special attention to their tyres. The Michelin teams have plainly been stupid and then arrogant.

.

[agmorgan]

At last someone with some sense!

I think a good analogy I heard was
If Arsenal turned up on a rainy day to play Man U and said "Sorry we only brought trainers, we are going to fall over in the mud, can you play in trainers as well or can we play the game inside?"
Everyone would ridicule them and not expect Man U to change their footwear.

Tyre companies are required to bring a safe tyre to the race.
There has been plenty of racing at Indy since the resurfacing, and been shown on TV.
It wouldn't be hard for Michelin to watch the races and produce a different tyre accordingly.

After all, that is their job!

[baja_yu]

The new tyre rule is probably one of the stupidest things I have seen in my life.
I'm ok with the engine rule, now the teams with less money can compete with the richer teams. But tyrechanging is something that is normal for any wehicle. What are they going to do next, limit them to one tank of fuel per race???

[agmorgan]

I think the one tyre rule is not only stupid, but also dangerous.
Kimi and Ralf 2 cases in point.

[honeybee]

The new tyre rule is probably one of the stupidest things I have seen in my life.
I'm ok with the engine rule, now the teams with less money can compete with the richer teams. But tyrechanging is something that is normal for any wehicle. What are they going to do next, limit them to one tank of fuel per race???

The intention of the single tyre rule is to force the teams to use a firmer rubber which will reduce cornering speeds, thereby increasing safety. Another rule in this regard is the use of grooved tyres in place of slicks. Slicks are more speed-oriented, and by introducing grooves, FIA has again tried to reduce speed. The focus of the new rules seems to be to ensure the equipment is failsafe in all circumstances. The single engine rule again ensures the engines are adequately tested to last for a few days, not just a few hours. Same goes for tyres. And that's the reason why Ferrari have been struggling this season, because they have opted for safer tyres than the most performance-oriented ones.

If you had the option of choosing a tyre for your family car, and if you experienced a burst tyre after running it for just 5000km, you would obviously not want to go in for that tyre, because it's NOT safe. The only difference between you and some of the F1 teams is you would prefer absolute safety over performance, while these teams are ready to compromise on the safety in order to get that performance edge.

Has anyone tracked how many engine blowouts occurred in this season as compared to the previous ones? After a couple of years with these rules, you will find companies are testing their engines thoroughly because they will have to last for the entire weekend, not just for a few laps, which will increase reliability and will in turn ensure driver safety.

Someone mentioned in one of the above posts why the option of using the Pit lane for that final straight wouldn't have worked. In the heat of the race, one of the drivers would be tempted to take the straight instead of going through the pit lane (one reason being he would have to remember taking the pit lane in every lap, out of the 60-odd laps, he could easily forget it for one lap and then just forget all about it), and once someone did it, the rest would follow suit, throwing the tyre caution to the winds. It's probably because of this that the FIA requires every team to have a backup tyre set which is absolutely reliable.

.

[Valleysboy1978]

Note however that ALL the Michelin runners were willing to race at Indianapolis, from the back and score NO points. They just wanted to race. This would have ended up with the same results but at least the crowd would have had a proper race to watch.

[penagate]

... Wakey wakey, we had the French GP last weekend

[si_the_geek]

And the British GP this weekend...
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=348345


Apparently all the teams agreed to have a non-championship "show" race at Indy after the end of the season at their own expense (including free tickets to all previous ticket holders), but the track turned it down.

[Valleysboy1978]

Says everything doesn't it. F1 is about the money, not the racing