Look Who Is Talking

[honeybee]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4393093.stm


What I can't understand is the same government which was shamed over the contracts awarded by it in Iraq, can lift a finger at the UN secretary when the report clearly mentions he has not done anything wrong. I guess it just shows the double-standard the US government has been employing all the while.


And now there's another report saying the US didn't and doesn't have any material intelligence about its enemies, which makes the Iraq war completely baseless. I guess there's no point in talking about it because people just want to forget these mistakes as quickly as they can

.

[davebat]

Before you start a new rant why not answer all the questions from the existing one you have?

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=330188

All you seem to do is use google to search for Iraq and anti american stories and then post links here, and then when people question you you post another link.

[nemaroller]

Shall we talk about India and its vast poor unfed citizens?

[plenderj]

In all fairness though this is pretty pathetic;
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...176611,00.html

US INTELLIGENCE "WRONG"

America's spy agencies have been accused of being "dead wrong" in most of their judgements about weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq war...

[nemaroller]

The cold war was pretty pathetic too - should have let the Soviet Union conquer the rest of the world anyway.

[plenderj]

Per capita India isn't even listed:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap

[nemaroller]

Its #27, 3 spots after the US - and yet Honeybee is so disgusted with the murder rate in the US.

Worry about your homeland first.

[demotivater]

Its #27, 3 spots after the US - and yet Honeybee is so disgusted with the murder rate in the US.

Worry about your homeland first.

It's much easier to blame the omni-evil US for all the worlds woes and nit pick at our society than to look in ones own backyard and explain that.

[Valleysboy1978]

Wow! Didn't think the UK would be that far down the list. I'm quite impressed

[honeybee]

Before you start a new rant why not answer all the questions from the existing one you have?

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=330188

All you seem to do is use google to search for Iraq and anti american stories and then post links here, and then when people question you you post another link.

LOL, why, just because you can't defend your own government's actions? At least our government isn't even half as arrogant on the world.

"People question"??? They simply counter-question because they don't know how to answer the criticism. First people talked about "credible intelligence". Now that's no more the case, because either the US government didn't have any intelligence or didn't have any "credible" intelligence ot support any of the claims made for justifying the need to invade Iraq. Colin Powell lied (intentionally or unintentionally, but he and the US government are still resposible) to the UN using flawed intelligence, so in a way they tried to lie to the whole world to justify their own selfish needs.

Then people talked about Saddam being a dictator. That itself is no justification for a foreign invasion. And going by the history of the US government's foreign policy, it has been supporting the very dictators when they serve the US purpose.

I guess you should know about Haliburton, the process of awarding contracts in Iraq and all those stories better than me, so I won't even discuss it here.

Almost every reason given for the justification of the Iraqi invasion has been found to be a lie or misinterpretation. And just because people can't explain it, they want to point fingures to the other governments? Pathetic.


And on top of that the US president wants to be the cleanest of all and accuse the UN general secretary? Hilarious I never knew the US government had a "sense of justice" or "conflict of interests"!!

.

[honeybee]

Its #27, 3 spots after the US - and yet Honeybee is so disgusted with the murder rate in the US.

Worry about your homeland first.

At least I am not worried that if my kids go to school tomorrow, some jerk can get hold of a gun anywhere thanks to the selfishness of our government and shoot them dead.

Disgusted about the murder rate in the US? Oh no, if your people want to kill each other, I don't have any opinion in that. It's the schoolkids that I was bothered about. Or are you so numb that the usual mugging and other crimes and school shootings are the same for you? Or maybe it would be just if the whole world published a human rights report on the happenings in the US? The US certainly thinks it has a right to comment on such issues taking place in other countries, so why are you uncomfortable to field similar queries on your own nation?

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[NotLKH]

Disgusted about the murder rate in the US?

Then stay away from India!

India is #1 in number of people murdered per year.
3 Times as many people murdered in India in comparison to the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/in/Crime
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Crime

[demotivater]

At least I am not worried that if my kids go to school tomorrow, some jerk can get hold of a gun anywhere thanks to the selfishness of our government and shoot them dead.
.

Your kids must not go to Christian schools. And if any of your kids is a female, you should be very worried considering the great lengths your government goes to in protecting them.

so in a way they tried to lie to the whole world to justify their own selfish needs

I think we've made it pretty clear we don't need to justify ourselves to anyone. Sorry if that's not agreeable to you.

[MasterBlaster]

India:
Unpaid diplomatic parking fines: 73 unpaid parking fines [20th of 116]

United States:
Unpaid diplomatic parking fines: 17 unpaid parking fines [50th of 116]

I find this particularly disturbing. Indian diplomats have no respect for the rest of the world and are only interested in stealing from the rest of the world. They repeatedly ignore the rest of the world's meter maids. I am afaid to send my kids to school because some crazy Indian with total disregard to traffic law may run over my children as he exits the school bus.

[MasterBlaster]

ISRAEL
Unpaid diplomatic parking fines: 191 unpaid parking fines [2nd of 116]

BLAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHFOOKINGHAHAHAHHHHHHH
Talk about stereotypes

[Shaggy Hiker]

I find this particularly disturbing. Indian diplomats have no respect for the rest of the world and are only interested in stealing from the rest of the world. They repeatedly ignore the rest of the world's meter maids. I am afaid to send my kids to school because some crazy Indian with total disregard to traffic law may run over my children as he exits the school bus.

Despite what the Beattles were saying, I haven't found a meter maid who I didn't ignore......does that parse?

[MasterBlaster]

Despite what the Beattles were saying, I haven't found a meter maid who I didn't ignore......does that parse?

Blahaha, Isn't that what Manson said

[szlamany]

HoneyBee...

It might have sounded like I was joking when I made this post in that thread you started about the IRAQ war - but I was serious...

Forget the press - forget what the government officials are saying...

It's a game of RISK.

Can't touch IRAN (yet). Already in Afghanistan.

Pakistan? Do we back the nuclear forces their against India, or fight for India from the rear?

Seems like we have "every-other" country at this point - that's the way you win RISK!

It's been incredibly obvious to me since 1970 that we (the US) are building strongholds all over the place to make sure our point-of-view is considered first.

I don't personally consider that arrogant - I consider that self-preservation.

And NemaRoller - Russia did destroy their entire economy in a we-can-trump-you-with-nuclear weapons game - that we won - without ever firing a weapon. That seems like a really smart move on our part.

IRAQ and Saddam were worthy of taking down simply because of the first gulf-war - Quwait - I personally never needed another reason. If our government had to twist facts to make the liberals in the US and the rest of the western countries go along, then so what - Iraq had to lose Saddam.

We created the UN - it's in NYC - we need to either eliminate it or fix it so it works - right now it's a left-wing waste of money.

[nemaroller]

HoneyBee...

And NemaRoller - Russia did destroy their entire economy in a we-can-trump-you-with-nuclear weapons game - that we won - without ever firing a weapon. That seems like a really smart move on our part.

We created the UN - it's in NYC - we need to either eliminate it or fix it so it works - right now it's a left-wing waste of money.

Man.. without the left wing.. how can the plane fly?

Seriously though - I'm still all for the UN - it may not have strength but its the only place to mediate and plead before the world.

I don't think the Soviet Union necessarily destroyed their economy by becoming too militaristic - you can't really run out of money in a communal society can you -- but fall under the reforms the liberal Gorbachev set in motion. My opinion is if the hard-liners had stayed in control, the old empire would still be alive today. Man I miss those days...

[Tom_Sample_UK]

Before you start a new rant why not answer all the questions from the existing one you have?

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=330188

All you seem to do is use google to search for Iraq and anti american stories and then post links here, and then when people question you you post another link.

Well said

[davebat]

Then stay away from India!

India is #1 in number of people murdered per year.
3 Times as many people murdered in India in comparison to the US.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/in/Crime
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Crime

Funny, Honeybee hasn't responded, guess that proves my point.

[mendhak]

I think this is a very appropriately titled thread.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Man.. without the left wing.. how can the plane fly?

Seriously though - I'm still all for the UN - it may not have strength but its the only place to mediate and plead before the world.

I don't think the Soviet Union necessarily destroyed their economy by becoming too militaristic - you can't really run out of money in a communal society can you -- but fall under the reforms the liberal Gorbachev set in motion. My opinion is if the hard-liners had stayed in control, the old empire would still be alive today. Man I miss those days...

I'm sure alot of people do. America has never done well without competion. We are a country that, if there isn't a devil to oppose, becomes a devil for itself to oppose. We need enemies. If they don't exist, we will create them. Throughout history, all of our greatest moments were the moments of greatest competition.

[honeybee]

HoneyBee...
It's been incredibly obvious to me since 1970 that we (the US) are building strongholds all over the place to make sure our point-of-view is considered first.

I don't personally consider that arrogant - I consider that self-preservation.

That's just a new way of justifying the US aggression You should also look into the foreign policy of your government since the second world war, how they encouraged infighting among other nations and gained a stronghold in the region at the cost of other people and other nations.

I guess 9/11 should also qualify as just an attempt by Al Qaeda at self-preservation and not an attack on the US or the "free world" as it is being touted.

.

[MasterBlaster]

That's just a new way of justifying the US aggression You should also look into the foreign policy of your government since the second world war, how they encouraged infighting among other nations and gained a stronghold in the region at the cost of other people and other nations.

I guess 9/11 should also qualify as just an attempt by Al Qaeda at self-preservation and not an attack on the US or the "free world" as it is being touted.

.

Actually that caused the destruction of Al Qaeda and the taliban. By your logic it would be justifiable if I dropped off 5,000 KKK members in your home town. As much as I would love to do that to proove a point, I won't because unlike you I realize that it would be wrong.

[szlamany]

look into the foreign policy of your government since the second world war, how they encouraged infighting among other nations and gained a stronghold in the region at the cost of other people and other nations.

The second world war (bad name - really just "another European war") was a situation that we involved ourselves in for the propogation of good, democracy - all that nice stuff.

We surely didn't have to get involved - our losses were huge.

Whatever we did since then is surely justified in my mind. I don't care what the CIA and the military do to make sure that another major war is not started by some loser country like North Korea.

[MasterBlaster]

The second world war (bad name - really just "another European war") was a situation that we involved ourselves in for the propogation of good, democracy - all that nice stuff.

We surely didn't have to get involved - our losses were huge.

Whatever we did since then is surely justified in my mind. I don't care what the CIA and the military do to make sure that another major war is not started by some loser country like North Korea.

North Korea won't start the next big war. It will be Israel/Iran or India/Pakistan starting the next big war using North Korean bilt nukes. It brings a new level of hatred to my existing beef with "Made in Korea Tags"

[Valleysboy1978]

The second world war (bad name - really just "another European war") was a situation that we involved ourselves in for the propogation of good, democracy - all that nice stuff.

We surely didn't have to get involved - our losses were huge.

Another European war!?!
So are Australia, China, Japan, Indonesia, India, Russia, Africa all considered European now? Like it or not the Nazis would have taken over the world if they had not been stopped, and no you would not have stopped them if you'd stayed neutral because you would have then stood alone against a country spanning the rest of the globe. Their resources would have simply been to great to compete with.

As for casualties, yes, they were horrific, but the US suffered nothing like the others. Britain suffered twice what the US suffered and the Russians suffered even more with over three million military casualties. Try to remember that millions gave their lives so you could HAVE and opinion and not have to speak German in a slave camp.
WW2 Casualty list

[Maven]

LOL, why, just because you can't defend your own government's actions? At least our government isn't even half as arrogant on the world.

"People question"??? They simply counter-question because they don't know how to answer the criticism. First people talked about "credible intelligence". Now that's no more the case, because either the US government didn't have any intelligence or didn't have any "credible" intelligence ot support any of the claims made for justifying the need to invade Iraq. Colin Powell lied (intentionally or unintentionally, but he and the US government are still resposible) to the UN using flawed intelligence, so in a way they tried to lie to the whole world to justify their own selfish needs.

Then people talked about Saddam being a dictator. That itself is no justification for a foreign invasion. And going by the history of the US government's foreign policy, it has been supporting the very dictators when they serve the US purpose.

I guess you should know about Haliburton, the process of awarding contracts in Iraq and all those stories better than me, so I won't even discuss it here.

Almost every reason given for the justification of the Iraqi invasion has been found to be a lie or misinterpretation. And just because people can't explain it, they want to point fingures to the other governments? Pathetic.


And on top of that the US president wants to be the cleanest of all and accuse the UN general secretary? Hilarious I never knew the US government had a "sense of justice" or "conflict of interests"!!

.

As for the USA supporting this and that. When you're facing the destruction of the world, any person on you're side is a good friend. Nuclear politics is well beyond you, little one.

I don't really think any issue matters to you, you're just anti-american. It wouldn't surprise me if you're anti-west all together. I care not. You have very one sided views that makes it pointless to hold an adult conversion with you.

[davebat]

Another European war!?!
So are Australia, China, Japan, Indonesia, India, Russia, Africa all considered European now? Like it or not the Nazis would have taken over the world if they had not been stopped, and no you would not have stopped them if you'd stayed neutral because you would have then stood alone against a country spanning the rest of the globe. Their resources would have simply been to great to compete with.

As for casualties, yes, they were horrific, but the US suffered nothing like the others. Britain suffered twice what the US suffered and the Russians suffered even more with over three million military casualties. Try to remember that millions gave their lives so you could HAVE and opinion and not have to speak German in a slave camp.
WW2 Casualty list

Excellent point

[Valleysboy1978]

I only just realised that it was 13 million casualties, not 3 million!
And you go on about the US casualty rate? I think Russia was the hardest hit for sure!

[szlamany]

Another European war!?!
So are Australia, China, Japan, Indonesia, India, Russia, Africa all considered European now? Like it or not the Nazis would have taken over the world if they had not been stopped, and no you would not have stopped them if you'd stayed neutral because you would have then stood alone against a country spanning the rest of the globe. Their resources would have simply been to great to compete with.

As for casualties, yes, they were horrific, but the US suffered nothing like the others. Britain suffered twice what the US suffered and the Russians suffered even more with over three million military casualties. Try to remember that millions gave their lives so you could HAVE and opinion and not have to speak German in a slave camp.
WW2 Casualty list

No where was I comparing losses - that would be cold and heartless. And yes, Russia during WWII was basically a European country.

My point was directed against HoneyBee and an attempt to get that person to understand that the motives of the free and democratic countries of the west are not colonial - we did get involved in WWII - we did fight along with the democratic countries to beat back the aggressors.

I'm fully aware of the sacrifices that were made by all to fight back the German desire for European-and-eventual-world-domination.

You really did take my statements out of context - the quote they were directed against and the point I was making was about the CIA...

[Valleysboy1978]

No where was I comparing losses - that would be cold and heartless. And yes, Russia during WWII was basically a European country.

My point was directed against HoneyBee and an attempt to get that person to understand that the motives of the free and democratic countries of the west are not colonial - we did get involved in WWII - we did fight along with the democratic countries to beat back the aggressors.

I'm fully aware of the sacrifices that were made by all to fight back the German desire for European-and-eventual-world-domination.

You really did take my statements out of context - the quote they were directed against and the point I was making was about the CIA...

For a start, Russia, China are communist. Most of Africa are under dictatorships. Therefore the motives of the "free and democratic countries of the west" is not strictly correct. Eastern, Southern and Northern countries were a part of the allies too.

Oh, and I wouldn't advise saying Russia is European if you should ever go to Russia. They may not appreciate such sentiment.

[szlamany]

For a start, Russia, China are communist. Most of Africa are under dictatorships. Therefore the motives of the "free and democratic countries of the west" is not strictly correct. Eastern, Southern and Northern countries were a part of the allies too.

Oh, and I wouldn't advise saying Russia is European if you should ever go to Russia. They may not appreciate such sentiment.

We certainly don't seem to be understanding each other. I didn't say Russia was European - I said Russia during WWII was basically European - in that conflict - in that situation.

HoneyBee is indicting the US and probably the entire western hemisphere (bad label that doesn't cover all the free and democratic countries - but simply a label that is popular in US jargon) for what he stated to be colonial and aggressive behavior - with bad motives!

[Valleysboy1978]

We certainly don't seem to be understanding each other. I didn't say Russia was European - I said Russia during WWII was basically European - in that conflict - in that situation.

HoneyBee is indicting the US and probably the entire western hemisphere (bad label that doesn't cover all the free and democratic countries - but simply a label that is popular in US jargon) for what he stated to be colonial and aggressive behavior - with bad motives!

So if Russia was part of the European Alliance, so must the US have been European...seeing as we were on the same side?

Although I agreed with the Iraq war I must also agree with honeybee on this one. The US and the UK were very agressive and they are now paying for it. They simply went into the country, all guns blazing, looking for that decisive victory. They didn't plan for the insurgents that would appear after they had occupied the country.
I mean c'mon! It doesn't take a genius to realise that the fanatics weren't just going to sit around and let the US/UK just waltz in and do what they like. No. The US/UK did this for support against the "terrorists" when they have only given the arab countries the excuse to sympathise with Al-Qeada and such. But like I said, I agreed that Saddam had to be brought down, I just don't approve of the way they did it.

[demotivater]

The US and the UK were very agressive and they are now paying for it.

Being less aggressive would have been a better idea, in your mind?

I agreed that Saddam had to be brought down, I just don't approve of the way they did it.

What do you propose should have been done instead?

[Valleysboy1978]

Being less aggressive would have been a better idea, in your mind?

What do you propose should have been done instead?

They should have at least planned for the insurgents that would appear after occupation. They were inevitable.

Honestly, I do not know what should have been done instead because I am far from a military strategist. However, I do believe that if the military had been left to do their job, and attack when they were ready (instead of the politicians interferring) there would have been less of a mess

[szlamany]

They should have at least planned for the insurgents that would appear after occupation. They were inevitable.

And you think they didn't know about the insurgents? It was inevitable to you but they were unaware - huh? Maybe they simply didn't talk about it since that would have caused more of the "interferring" that you refer to below.

Honestly, I do not know what should have been done instead because I am far from a military strategist. However, I do believe that if the military had been left to do their job, and attack when they were ready (instead of the politicians interferring) there would have been less of a mess

The military is doing it's job - quite well in my opinion. Paper today indicated that the election process is moving along. I'm personally very satisfied with the methods used in Iraq and the outcome.

[MasterBlaster]

They should have at least planned for the insurgents that would appear after occupation. They were inevitable.

Honestly, I do not know what should have been done instead because I am far from a military strategist. However, I do believe that if the military had been left to do their job, and attack when they were ready (instead of the politicians interferring) there would have been less of a mess

Less of a mess? What mess. are you talking about the BS they spout off in the news every day. The allies occupied the entire country of Iraq in a few months. Today Iraq has it's own elected government (funny the new Iraqi president didn't get as much press as some goathearder steping on an insurgents land mine) and there have only been 1721 deaths between The US and UK. Less of a mess, you've got to be fooking kidding me. That my friend is going into a country and kicking arse, not a mess. More people than that died inbetween leaving the ships and hitting the Normandy beaches. So there are a couple thousand Lunatic radicals running around Iraq. Not a problem. Give the Iraqi people enough time to weed them out. Gen. Franks ran the invasion as perfect as any one possibly could. His tactics will be studied in military training facilities around the world for the next 200 years.

[davebat]

There have only been 1721 deaths between The US and UK.

And only between 17337 and 19722 Iraqi civilians.