School Shotings and Weapons Ban

[honeybee]

So, any change of mind after the latest school shootings? Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?

If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense", I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.

But then, that's my personal view

.

[dglienna]

It is illegal to carry a weapon in all but a few of the states, so I don't think most people think that everyone in the US is armed. The big thing is that if a burglar breaks into your house, he doesn't know if you have a weapon, but both he and yourself know that you have the right to shoot him if you find him in your house.
Keeps the peace, to some extent.

[yrwyddfa]

It is of course still legal to bear arms but I believe that it's not legal to arm bears.

On more restrained note I think that the following logic applies

(i) Guns are available
(ii) Some people will have guns
(iii) Some people are mad
(iv) Some people who are mad will have guns
(v) Unhappy consequences such as reported today

I can't see how you can make guns unavailable through legislation. Americans (as far as I know) enjoy their right to bear arms.

Perhaps some form of stricter licensing is required.

[davebat]

So, any change of mind after the latest school shootings? Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?

If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense", I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.

I dont think theres that many americans who walk the streets armed with guns, this was a mass murder. Im sure in Perfectville where you come from things like this dont happen, but in the real world people do some stupid crazy things

[dglienna]

they even require trigger locks to prevent tragedy in the home.

[Valleysboy1978]

It is illegal to carry a weapon in all but a few of the states, so I don't think most people think that everyone in the US is armed. The big thing is that if a burglar breaks into your house, he doesn't know if you have a weapon, but both he and yourself know that you have the right to shoot him if you find him in your house.
Keeps the peace, to some extent.

I can't see how that would "keep the peace", only encourage a burglar to shoot you before robbing you.
I think I'd rather he take my stuff than take my life, given the choice. Considering most other western countries have a ban on firearms they are doing well enough, and it's only in the US that these school shootings seem to occur.

[NotLKH]

So, any change of mind after the latest school shootings?

No, I still think its a shame they cancelled "Friends"

Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?
If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense",

Surely even you can see this kid {the bad guy, law breaker, grandparent executioner} is the reason why some {the good guys} would want to carry guns for protection.

I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.

Hmmm, lets see...the original show, Special Victims Unit, Criminal Intent, Trial By Jury, ... Yep! I agree!
We need More Law and Order!
...Or more CSI.
...Or another Monk or two...

But then, that's my personal view

Thats ok, I forgive you.

[crptcblade]

Damned Native Americans, I blame all the firewater.

[BodwadUK]

We had a stabbing in a school here in the UK. Kids can get weapons its just a matter of how nuts they are.

[crptcblade]

One time this kid sent a Komodo Dragon after another guy and it knocked him down and tore his face off. True story.

[davebat]

if you search for "Jeff Weise" on google (the killer) you'll see he posted on nazi forums.

[nemaroller]

School shootings happen everywhere, and it has no correlation with how strict gun laws are -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1953425.stm

[BodwadUK]

Umm there are probably loads of people by the same name

[Valleysboy1978]

Of course it correlates to how strict gun laws are. The more lax, the easier it is to get a gun!?!

Bod I definitely agree that if a kid is nuts he will harm people, but you have to admit there's a difference between some kid brandishing a knife and an AK-47

[BodwadUK]

I am not saying guns should be legal but spotting potential child psychos is more important than trying to ban what is probably millions of guns. Its all about practicallity

[MasterBlaster]

So, any change of mind after the latest school shootings? Or is it just going to be treated as "yet another accident"?

If ordinary citizens find it necessary to carry firearms for "self-defense", I can only say the state of law and order in the US is absolutely horrible.

But then, that's my personal view

.

Erm. He was an American Indian, not an ordinary citizen. US government laws are generally not enforced on reservations. Bottom line if a Native wants a gun, he can pretty much have one regardless of the law.

There is a problem with outlawing guns specific to the US. There are so many weapons available on the black market, If you outlaw the sale of legal firearms only criminals will have guns. I don't bash that craphole of a country you live in. Don't bash the craphole of a country I live in.

[Xanith]

I can't see how that would "keep the peace", only encourage a burglar to shoot you before robbing you.
I think I'd rather he take my stuff than take my life, given the choice. Considering most other western countries have a ban on firearms they are doing well enough, and it's only in the US that these school shootings seem to occur.

Just something interesting I found...

"The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S."

Looks like "well enough" is not exactly cutting it.

X

[Cander]

Just something interesting I found...

"The 2000 International Crime Victimization Survey, the last survey done, shows the violent-crime rate in England and Wales was twice the rate in the U.S. When the new survey for 2004 comes out, that gap will undoubtedly have widened even further as crimes reported to British police have since soared by 35%, while declining 6% in the U.S."

Looks like "well enough" is not exactly cutting it.

X

Thats probably only during Football season.

[dglienna]

I can't see how that would "keep the peace", only encourage a burglar to shoot you before robbing you.
I think I'd rather he take my stuff than take my life, given the choice. Considering most other western countries have a ban on firearms they are doing well enough, and it's only in the US that these school shootings seem to occur.

Most burglars are just trying to come up with some cash for their latest "fix", and, thus, are unlikely to be armed. they usually prefer when their victims aren't home.

[MasterBlaster]

Most burglars are just trying to come up with some cash for their latest "fix", and, thus, are unlikely to be armed. they usually prefer when their victims aren't home.

True, but are you willing to bet your life on that? Personally I'd rather pump a few slugs in him first and then hear his sad story about why he was cleaning out my house.

[dglienna]

If he was still alive

[MasterBlaster]

If he was still alive

Absolutly, Aim for the kneecaps and we all come out winners. I don't get robbed or hurt and the Junkie would be robber get's his fix of pain medication from the local Jail's medical staff

[dglienna]

and you brought that up, WHY ?

[szlamany]

I think this is nothing but ball ****:

Please have the common sense and maturity to remove that link - before some young innocent travels into it.

Please!

[BodwadUK]

Violent crime is rising in the UK. I dont think its because citizens cant be armed its because the Police cant. Why would a criminal with a gun fear and officer with their pepper spray. They dont need guns on patrol but they should if called out to an incident

[Valleysboy1978]

Besides, violent crime includes a punch-up. I would hardly consider a punch-up and a shooting level in terms of violence

[BodwadUK]

Um knife crime and Gun crime is on the increase in the UK and its going up fast

[Valleysboy1978]

Because they are not punished hard enough.
I feel sorry for the police. My uncle is in the metropolitan police and he often arrests someone for assault and they are free to go before he even finishes the paper-work!!

[Shaggy Hiker]

Absolutly, Aim for the kneecaps and we all come out winners. I don't get robbed or hurt and the Junkie would be robber get's his fix of pain medication from the local Jail's medical staff

MB, I assume you are aware that if you shoot somebody, you had best make sure they are dead. Anybody in law enforcement will confirm that you face much greater legal troubles if you just wound somebody in self-defence. If you are going to shoot them, make sure they are dead.

[szlamany]

MB, I assume you are aware that if you shoot somebody, you had best make sure they are dead. Anybody in law enforcement will confirm that you face much greater legal troubles if you just wound somebody in self-defence. If you are going to shoot them, make sure they are dead.

And the problem with that is most people couldn't shot a hand gun if their lives depended on it. That short barrel - without any real training - probably shoot yourself in the foot!

At which point the perp hits you over the head and steals your gun as well - more crack for the evening...

[MasterBlaster]

MB, I assume you are aware that if you shoot somebody, you had best make sure they are dead. Anybody in law enforcement will confirm that you face much greater legal troubles if you just wound somebody in self-defence. If you are going to shoot them, make sure they are dead.

Actually in this state if you shoot first and kill your getting Manslaughter. I guess they want to make it sporting and give the burgular a crack at you first

And the problem with that is most people couldn't shot a hand gun if their lives depended on it. That short barrel - without any real training - probably shoot yourself in the foot!

At which point the perp hits you over the head and steals your gun as well - more crack for the evening...

Dude do not use a hand gun as protection in your house. Bullets go through walls bounce around and may come back and hit you or your kids or wife or whatever. It may even hit your computer and that is unacceptable. Use a short barrel shot gun w/pistolgrip and loaded with rock salt or Pepper Pellets.

[szlamany]

Dude do not use a hand gun as protection in your house. Bullets go through walls bounce around and may come back and hit you or your kids or wife or whatever. It may even hit your computer and that is unacceptable. Use a short barrel shot gun w/pistolgrip and loaded with rock salt or Pepper Pellets.

Personally, I do not do guns - a gun in your house gets your kids friend shot by accident - all too often...

The latest one around here was some grandpa dies - no one knows he has a loaded gun in the bedroom and some 12 year old shoots his friend.

That sucks too much.

[MasterBlaster]

trigger locks are free. In defense of the grandfather He probably didn't realize that 90% of the people in this country born after 1945 are morons and need a warning label on their cup of Starbucks coffee to know it's hot.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I have heard a study showing that households that have guns have an increased chance of a member dying of a gunshot wound.

Now, there are several possible reasons for that, and the study was not looking at any reason in particular, they were simply measuring that statistic.

One possibility is that people in areas where gun violence is common, are more likely to be armed themselves. In which case, they are more likely to be shot, and their having a gun is incidental to their elevated chance of being shot.

Another possibility is that having a gun in the house should vastly increase the odds of non-crime related shooting. Basically, you can't accidentally shoot yourself if you don't have a gun (though I have heard of a case where a guy managed to kill himself while bow fishing, which is REALLY hard to do). Since you must have a gun to accidentally shoot yourself or somebody else with one, then households with guns would be the only households where such accidents are possible.

A third possibility, and one that people don't like to confront much, is that any kind of violence can become more deadly more rapidly if a gun is involved. It doesn't take a criminal bent on a crime, it just takes domestic violence, a more spontaneous and intractable problem.

[MasterBlaster]

A third possibility, and one that people don't like to confront much, is that any kind of violence can become more deadly more rapidly if a gun is involved. It doesn't take a criminal bent on a crime, it just takes domestic violence, a more spontaneous and intractable problem.

I know what you mean. I've been hiding the keys to my gun safe from my wife for years.

[nemaroller]

...though I have heard of a case where a guy managed to kill himself while bow fishing, which is REALLY hard to do.

LMAO

[honeybee]

A few months/years back there had been a similar debate here, and somebody had suggested that when a majority of the people are not armed, the thieves and criminals would also tend to carry either no arms or relatively less fatal ones like knives. Personally if you want to let people own guns, you are just setting up incidents such as the school shootings to happen. Yes, you need to weed out the lunatics, but I guess it's far more sensible to ensure that even an occasional lunatic can't shoot a bunch of kids first, before setting out to spot him.

Interestingly, I don't hear anyone make the same argument against burglaries and other gun-crimes: "We should spot the criminals first, instead of worrying about if they can carry guns or not".

It's obvious that identifying a lunatic in a crowd is much more difficult than identifying a gunman in a crowd. Or maybe the sense of self- prevails all other senses?

.

[demotivater]

Or maybe the sense of self- prevails all other senses?
.

Self preservation, perhaps.

Of course the statistics will say it's unsafe to have a gun in your home, that only makes sense. A home with a gun is more likely to have some sort of gun related incident than a home without. Um, duh? And a home with electricity is more likely to have an electrical fire than a home without electricity.

This kind of debate is, in general, pointless. There are a multitude of pro's, and a multitude of con's. Bottom line, for me anyway, my constitution says it's my right to own a gun, so I do. The last thing I'd want to do is spend a few days cleaning some scumbags blood and guts off my floor, but I'd certainly do it if it came to that.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Many people ask me if I carry a gun when I wander off into the woods for weeks at a time. I don't. They weigh too much, and aren't useful enough. I weighed the cost/benefits, and came to this conclusion. The problem is this: there are situations where a gun is the only suitable tool. However, the situation has to be just right. In the woods, you MUST have sufficient time to react, because even with a gun you are less well armed than most of the things that might attack you. In a domestic setting, that may not be the case. If your assailant is less well armed than you, you have a chance even if you are surprised.

If you work through the scenarios, you need more than a gun to win in a domestic incident (burglary or what not), you also need a certain amount of luck. However, the costs of having a gun in the house are more nebulous. For me, the cost of a gun is serious due to the weight. There is no weight issue in a house, the question comes down to maximizing the utility of the gun while minimizing the incidental risk.

In any case, there is a calculation, and you had best make it.

[MasterBlaster]

Many people ask me if I carry a gun when I wander off into the woods for weeks at a time. I don't. They weigh too much, and aren't useful enough. I weighed the cost/benefits, and came to this conclusion. The problem is this: there are situations where a gun is the only suitable tool. However, the situation has to be just right. In the woods, you MUST have sufficient time to react, because even with a gun you are less well armed than most of the things that might attack you. In a domestic setting, that may not be the case. If your assailant is less well armed than you, you have a chance even if you are surprised.

A small lightweight pistol are usefull in the outdoors as noisemakers. A couple shots in the air will usually freeze or scare away an attaking critter like mountain lions, raccoons(yes they do attack) or coyotes and the like. Unfortunatly most attacks are from Bears(if you go near their cubs) Snakes and spiders in which case your gun will com in handy as a self execution device to avoid a painfull death. LOL

In light of the rising frequency of human - grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.

Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear & grizzly bear excrement. Black bear excrement is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear excrement has little bells in it and smells like pepper.