What's exactly wrong with honeybee?

[demotivater]

[NotLKH]

Hmmmm.

Interesting question.

HB, from what I've heard, is a valuable member of VBF, contributing, helping people out, answering questions, although I've never noticed HB in the VB sections.

However, in the Chit Chat, World Events Area, HB has a long history of speaking up about the percieved injustices HB sees the US doing throughout the world. HB has been doing this forever, although its NOT meant to be a blanket attack against all USA-ians, it certainly seems that way.

Its very rare for HB to put in a kind word for the US, but on the few occasions that HB has, I've come to understand HB is more anti US Politicking the world, than anything else. In My view, this stems from HB Believeing the US should be doing something for India, but isn't. What that IS, HB has yet to say.

So, in my opinion, HB ranks high up on the irritant scale, but understand, theres something behind what HB's saying, and its not malice.


-Lou

[Wally Pipp]

well that's a turn-up for the books ...
I thought foreigners weren't allowed an opinion different from what the US govt thinks they should have ...

[mendhak]

Honeybee is the result of the mainstream media's influence on people, which in turn encompasses dubious facts, jealousy and the hope or the idealism that the world ought to be in black and white. That there can be no gray area.

Am I right or what?

[TheVader]

Originally posted by mendhak
Honeybee is the result of the mainstream media's influence on people, which in turn encompasses dubious facts, jealousy and the hope or the idealism that the world ought to be in black and white. That there can be no gray area.

Am I right or what?

I always thought thinking in black and white was a Republican-thing...

[mendhak]

Originally posted by TheVader
I always thought thinking in black and white was a Republican-thing...

Yep. And the Democrats think in white and black. :smilie:

[TheVader]

Originally posted by mendhak
Yep. And the Democrats think in white and black. :smilie:

Then Ralph Nader must think in gray...

[demotivater]

Originally posted by TheVader
Then Ralph Nader must think in gray...

It's green actually

[Memnoch1207]

HB has had a hard life...and the US is the cause of it.

While growing up in <insert name here> he watched helplessly as his friends and family indulged themselves on American Fast Food. As a result of their indulgence and severe obesity, they sold HB into slavery to support their fast food addiction.

HB was passed around at local auctions, before finally being purchased by a well-to-do family. He was purchased as a pet for their tyranical 9 year old red-headed son, who would dress HB up in undersized Barbie clothes and parade him through town.

After six years of forced Barbie marches through town, being laughed at as "Barbies Ugly Sister", HB managed to escape.

He managed to make it to the sea and sneak aboard a ship sailing to an unknown land.

Where he lives to this day.

So you see his hatred for the U.S. is a result of his family being torn apart by American Fast Food!

I don't blame him for his hatred....I would just like to buy him a Big Mac so he could taste how wonderful American Fast Food really is!

[demotivater]

That is heart wrenching. Remind me to send him some McDonalds gift certificates for Christmas.

[Ex-FB]

I think HB's disgruntlement comes from his percieved backing of Pakistan by the US. I'm not sure why this is the US's fault, and would he suddenly like the US if they were to back India.

Although I agree with him on the basis of his dislike of the current US government, I think he steps beyond that line into the very blurry area of disliking all things American..... which is a bit daft as they are very nice as individuals and contrary to the impression their foreign policy gives, are actually quite smart.

[CORONA BEER]

Originally posted by demotivater

Honeybee is a homosexual.
And a child molester.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Ex-FB
I think HB's disgruntlement comes from his percieved backing of Pakistan by the US. I'm not sure why this is the US's fault, and would he suddenly like the US if they were to back India.

Although I agree with him on the basis of his dislike of the current US government, I think he steps beyond that line into the very blurry area of disliking all things American..... which is a bit daft as they are very nice as individuals and contrary to the impression their foreign policy gives, are actually quite smart.

Ex-FB and NotKLH, thanks for appearing to defend me

I have made it clear several times that I am not anti-American people. Although I am not crazy about all US-made stuff like some of the other people over here are, I think they have an equal right to live on this earth as mine. I am against the policies of the US government which seem to be utter selfish and short-sighted (and of the late heavy-handed). I have seldom remarked anything about the internal affairs of the US, or the non-political/military aspects of its foreign policies.

I am not pissed off because the US is aiding Pakistan and NOT aiding India. I think in the long run we would be better off without any such aid. (At least that gives us a moral ground to fight the developed nations in the WTO forums ). I am only pissed off because the US government is as selfish as (or maybe greedier than) most of the other nations, but always assumes a righteous stand on its policies and decisions.

There were days when I thought the US indeed could be the ideal place on the earth to live, but those were the days when I believed everything was simply black and white. Now when I realize there are a lot of shades to life than simply black and white, I think I would prefer my tricolour over the Union Jack. Today when I look at the state of the US government and its foreign policies I really wonder what happened to the American Dream. Don't you people realize it may be gone forever? You can very well label me anti-US or anti-Bush or whatever else you want. But don't you ever think what your government has been doing for the past years has isolated your nation from the rest of the world and not brought you closer to it? Is this how America wants to live in the modern world, where almost every nation will hate it for one reason or another? How long?

NotKLH, I don't know if I have been valuable in the VB sections although I did try and answer as many questions as I could. If you think I have been valuable, or have heard so from others, I should be thankful to them. For the past year or so I have been working with Delphi, so haven't been in touch with VB at all. I guess that should explain why I don't frequent the VB Forums these days.

.

[Skitchen8]

I live here and I agree with most of what HB says...

This place simply blows, the government is corrupt, the economy might as well be non-existant, most of the people have IQs in the "dumb as a rock" range, obesity is not only a common thing (yes, the lazy american thing) but when people get obese they decide to sue companies because they ate their food. So basically, be selfish, sue everybody, ignore anything but the convenient, and you'll fit right in here...

[demotivater]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
I live here and I agree with most of what HB says...

This place simply blows, the government is corrupt, the economy might as well be non-existant, most of the people have IQs in the "dumb as a rock" range, obesity is not only a common thing (yes, the lazy american thing) but when people get obese they decide to sue companies because they ate their food. So basically, be selfish, sue everybody, ignore anything but the convenient, and you'll fit right in here...

That's just plain stupid. If it's so rough for you, better yourself or get the $*@% out. Bitching about the economy from work? Or maybe you're at home on your computer, in your house with an internet connection. What rough times we're in.

[Skitchen8]

I'm leaving as soon as I'm 18 and I'm allowed to move


Nope, bitching about the economy from home, on an internet connection I can only afford because my dad's work gives us a discount from a computer my family had to save up for two years to be able to afford in a house where I had to get a job to help my family out with money.

Speak for yourself, ass hole

[Memnoch1207]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
I live here and I agree with most of what HB says...

This place simply blows, the government is corrupt, the economy might as well be non-existant, most of the people have IQs in the "dumb as a rock" range, obesity is not only a common thing (yes, the lazy american thing) but when people get obese they decide to sue companies because they ate their food. So basically, be selfish, sue everybody, ignore anything but the convenient, and you'll fit right in here...

You're still a kid who hasn't even experienced the "Real World" yet. You still live at home with your parents. You probably even developed this opinion through the influence of your parents, friends, and television, rather having developed it from your own experience. Your just expressing a hand-me-down opinion based on other peoples feelings.

The economy isn't as bad as it was in say 2000.
The intelligence of the population is very diverse, ranging from "Blubbering Idiot" to "Psychotic Genius", maybe you should quit hanging out with idiots?
If you aren't an obese person why do you care? Litigation is a right every person has, whether it's frivolous or not.

Or you could just ***** and complain about this country from the convenience of your air-conditioned bedroom, in your parents middle-class house, in a middle-class suburban neighborhood, in some middle-class town.

You don't know **** about how hard life can be, until you are in a situation where you are married with a baby girl and just got laid-off from your job and have to struggle to find another job that pays enough to bring money in to pay the bills, groceries, diapers, etc...

your idea of a hard life probably means mommy and daddy didn't give you enough gas money to drive to the mall!

[Memnoch1207]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
I'm leaving as soon as I'm 18 and I'm allowed to move


Nope, bitching about the economy from home, on an internet connection I can only afford because my dad's work gives us a discount from a computer my family had to save up for two years to be able to afford in a house where I had to get a job to help my family out with money.

Speak for yourself, ass hole

boo hoo...there are kids in this world younger than you living in the streets, because some rebel leader massacred his/her entire family...oh...you have such a hard life.

*****!

[Skitchen8]

You're still a kid who hasn't even experienced the "Real World" yet. You still live at home with your parents. You probably even developed this opinion through the influence of your parents, friends, and television, rather having developed it from your own experience. Your just expressing a hand-me-down opinion based on other peoples feelings.

Of course I developed my opinion due to outside influences, it would be pretty hard to even have an opinion if I lived in a box and never saw the outside world. I love how older people always assume that teenagers know absolutely nothing and don't deserve to have their own opinion, what because I haven't been alive for as long?? That of course makes sense, in a closed minded ignorant sort of way.

The economy isn't as bad as it was in say 2000.
The intelligence of the population is very diverse, ranging from "Blubbering Idiot" to "Psychotic Genius", maybe you should quit hanging out with idiots?
If you aren't an obese person why do you care? Litigation is a right every person has, whether it's frivolous or not.

So because it has been worse before means it's not bad now?? The economy was worse during the great depression, so by your point of view the economy is good pretty much all the time since I doubt it will ever dip into the depths realized during the stock market crash. Once again, makes sense in a closed minded ignorant sort of way.

Take a look at the majority of the population and the ignorance most of America has shown, allowing themselves to be lied to by an administration more corrupt than Communist Russia could have ever dreamed of. Then again, you are right, I can't blame complacency on the people so much as the fact America has had it easy for such a long time and has never needed to come to terms with such corruption.

Frivolous lawsuits do affect me, do you have health insurance?? Do you know how much less it would cost of stupid lawsuits weren't allowed to happen?? Doctors need to make good money because if they aren't absolutely perfect in everything they do they get sued. So yes it did affect me having a brother who died of Leukemia and paying $700 a month insurance bills.

Or you could just ***** and complain about this country from the convenience of your air-conditioned bedroom, in your parents middle-class house, in a middle-class suburban neighborhood, in some middle-class town.

Yes, living in a house in a decent neighborhood completely revokes my right to free speech, I am no longer allowed to complain about the government or the economy, only people who are worse off than me can comlain. Certainly if we had a politician who was lobbying for better public health care for the poor you would tell him to shut his mouth because he doesn't know what he is talking about, because you actually have to live a certain way in order to wish it was changed.

You don't know **** about how hard life can be, until you are in a situation where you are married with a baby girl and just got laid-off from your job and have to struggle to find another job that pays enough to bring money in to pay the bills, groceries, diapers, etc...

Hmmm... seems you are a bit hypocritical, my only response to your statement will be to quote another of your statements

boo hoo...there are kids in this world younger than you living in the streets, because some rebel leader massacred his/her entire family...oh...you have such a hard life.

*****!

your idea of a hard life probably means mommy and daddy didn't give you enough gas money to drive to the mall!

Yes, they keep refusing to fuel the car I don't have insured by the insurance company that charges so much I can't afford it. Them crazy bastards. Of coures this is another one of them ignorance things, where I can't say something is bad unless I'm living it. According to the points of view you have expressed you obviously think that cancer should not be cured, after all you aren't living it. Or wait, is your logic as flawed as I think it is??

[Memnoch1207]

[QUOTE]
Of course I developed my opinion due to outside influences, it would be pretty hard to even have an opinion if I lived in a box and never saw the outside world. I love how older people always assume that teenagers know absolutely nothing and don't deserve to have their own opinion, what because I haven't been alive for as long?? That of course makes sense, in a closed minded ignorant sort of way.

It has very little to do with age, although age is definitely a factor. It has to do with life experience (the younger you are the less overall life experience you have), and an exposure to a variety of different social/economical environments to appreciate the worlds diversity. It also has to do with the exposure to being on both sides of the Proletariat vs. Bourgeois argument.

So because it has been worse before means it's not bad now?? The economy was worse during the great depression, so by your point of view the economy is good pretty much all the time since I doubt it will ever dip into the depths realized during the stock market crash. Once again, makes sense in a closed minded ignorant sort of way.

This is a matter of perspective, and yes, because it isn't as bad as it was before it is considered better.
Let me ask you this..Why do you feel the economy is down?
The unemployment rate has steadily dropped from 6.3% in June 2003 to 5.6% in June 2004. Which means more jobs.
The average hourly earnings has increased from 13.97 in June of 2000 to 15.65 in June 2004.
The Consumer price index has dropped from 0.6% in June 2000 to 0.3% in June 2004.
And the Gross Domestic Product has increased 3.9% as of the 1st quarter of 2004.

Granted the economy isn't as strong as it could be, but it sure as hell isn't as bad as people like you think it is.

Take a look at the majority of the population and the ignorance most of America has shown, allowing themselves to be lied to by an administration more corrupt than Communist Russia could have ever dreamed of. Then again, you are right, I can't blame complacency on the people so much as the fact America has had it easy for such a long time and has never needed to come to terms with such corruption.

What proof do you have to back this up???
This is nothing more than emotion speaking, based on absolutely no facts.

Frivolous lawsuits do affect me, do you have health insurance?? Do you know how much less it would cost of stupid lawsuits weren't allowed to happen?? Doctors need to make good money because if they aren't absolutely perfect in everything they do they get sued. So yes it did affect me having a brother who died of Leukemia and paying $700 a month insurance bills.

Frivolous lawsuits do not increase health care costs. Not setting a monetary limit on malpractice damages is what has increased the cost of health care. When juries award victims millions or 10's of millions of dollars in malpractice claims, the insurance companies have to foot the bill for those costs, which in turn is passed on to you the insurance consumer. As soon as a reasonable limit is placed on malpractice damages, the sooner health care costs could drop.

Yes, living in a house in a decent neighborhood completely revokes my right to free speech, I am no longer allowed to complain about the government or the economy, only people who are worse off than me can comlain. Certainly if we had a politician who was lobbying for better public health care for the poor you would tell him to shut his mouth because he doesn't know what he is talking about, because you actually have to live a certain way in order to wish it was changed.

You have every right to complain and criticize. But when you complain and criticize things you either know very little about or have never experienced, then your complaints and criticisms are just mooted by those of us who have experienced the things you complain about. Face it, you haven't experienced the true hardships life can deal a person.

Yes, they keep refusing to fuel the car I don't have insured by the insurance company that charges so much I can't afford it. Them crazy bastards. Of coures this is another one of them ignorance things, where I can't say something is bad unless I'm living it. According to the points of view you have expressed you obviously think that cancer should not be cured, after all you aren't living it. Or wait, is your logic as flawed as I think it is??

Welcome to the real world...Simple fact is...nobody gives a **** about you or how you feel. Anymore than they give a **** about me or how I feel. You can do one of two things.
1) Sit around and ***** and complain about how the government is so bad, and life is so hard and poor people should get their teeth cleaned.

or

2) Quit bitching and take some action, do something about it.
If you don't like something, then try changing it.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by honeybee
Ex-FB and NotKLH, thanks for appearing to defend me

I have made it clear several times that I am not anti-American people. Although I am not crazy about all US-made stuff like some of the other people over here are, I think they have an equal right to live on this earth as mine. I am against the policies of the US government which seem to be utter selfish and short-sighted (and of the late heavy-handed). I have seldom remarked anything about the internal affairs of the US, or the non-political/military aspects of its foreign policies.

I am not pissed off because the US is aiding Pakistan and NOT aiding India. I think in the long run we would be better off without any such aid. (At least that gives us a moral ground to fight the developed nations in the WTO forums ). I am only pissed off because the US government is as selfish as (or maybe greedier than) most of the other nations, but always assumes a righteous stand on its policies and decisions.

There were days when I thought the US indeed could be the ideal place on the earth to live, but those were the days when I believed everything was simply black and white. Now when I realize there are a lot of shades to life than simply black and white, I think I would prefer my tricolour over the Union Jack. Today when I look at the state of the US government and its foreign policies I really wonder what happened to the American Dream. Don't you people realize it may be gone forever? You can very well label me anti-US or anti-Bush or whatever else you want. But don't you ever think what your government has been doing for the past years has isolated your nation from the rest of the world and not brought you closer to it? Is this how America wants to live in the modern world, where almost every nation will hate it for one reason or another? How long?

NotKLH, I don't know if I have been valuable in the VB sections although I did try and answer as many questions as I could. If you think I have been valuable, or have heard so from others, I should be thankful to them. For the past year or so I have been working with Delphi, so haven't been in touch with VB at all. I guess that should explain why I don't frequent the VB Forums these days.

.

Amen bro.

[vbNeo]

Now, I'm 16 - and I don't want to hear crap about it, don't tell me about real world stuff, my opinion matters just as much as anyone elses.

The opinion I have, I've made from observing what's happening around the world, not so much through television, but through papers... papers that are reliable and stick to facts. My opinion differs a lot from the one of my parents, and is only agreed upon by my brother, who still has a different view on things than me.

Anyway, what I've come to realize is that the US government seems to care about nobody but themselves, yes - they aid countries around the world, but often it's for their own cause(Take Afghanistan during the cold war). And lately they've been even more ruthless(sp?) by bypassing the UN(and this is a very serious matter) and going into Iraq. As for the Indian vs. Pakistan matter I don't think any of them should be aided specifically, I agree this is a very dangerous conflict, but supporting the 'lesser' of two evils is not a good solution, now I don't know that much about this specific 'war' so please bear over if my opinion sounds a bit to edgy.

Another thing the US has done, is not keeping their promises, for example according to the use of oil, and pollution in general, several treaties have been signed, and all other countries who signed it, except the US, has been able to hold their promise.

Thinking internally, the Patriot act just made everything worse for every american, and I count myself lucky I live where I live, and that privacy is held as a very serious matter here.
(www.freesherman.com)

As said, I am very lucky to live in Denmark, where democrasy is working almost 100%, where one person can make a difference, and the opinion of the people really has impact.

I hope all of you who are older than me will take this response seriously, and not taunt me for trying to take part in a serious discussion such as this one - I'm merely trying to get my opinion out.

Just my 0.02$

PS: My brother's going to Iraq the 14th of august to support the people down there... Although I'm not happy about it, I believe it's something he must do, if he thinks it's right.

[Memnoch1207]

1) Since when does any government keep its promises?
2) When has a country ever aided another country without a motive? Every country has an agenda when it comes to assisting other countries.

If there were oil in africa, the UN and every other country in the world would have stepped in to stop the genocide that has been going on there for decades.

The UN hasn't done a damn thing to help any situation. They think their mere presence is enough to calm a rebellion or stop a country in the midst of genocide.

Take the country of Sierra Leone for example. It was in the middle of a rebellion that was moving fast towards freedomtown (its capital). The Sierra Leone government contacted a PMC (Private Military Corporation) based in South Africa called Executive Outcomes. They were hired to help the Sierra Leone government stop the rebellion. In 2 months with about 200 operatives Executive Outcomes was able to push back a 10,000+ man rebellion.

Well, when the UN heard this, they said "No, we can't have hired guns going into a country and fighting an unsanctioned war."

The UN ordered Executive Outcomes to leave Sierra Leone. The UN then proceeded to send almost 18,000 soldiers of its UN Peacekeeping force into Sierra Leone. After 2 months, the rebellion had started once again. Then after 10 UN peacekeepers were kidnapped and murdered, the UN pulled all 18,000 troops out of Sierra Leone, leaving them with absolutely no protection against the rebels.

Look at Rwanda, almost 1,000,000 people were murdered in 1994, and the UN did nothing. They even stated that they would not use the term "Genocide" in regards to the Rwanda massacre, because then, the UN would have to act on it, which they never did.

So when you think the US is the only one who has selfish tendencies, you don't have to look any further then the other 190 countries that make up the UN.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
1) Since when does any government keep its promises?
2) When has a country ever aided another country without a motive? Every country has an agenda when it comes to assisting other countries.

If there were oil in africa, the UN and every other country in the world would have stepped in to stop the genocide that has been going on there for decades.

The UN hasn't done a damn thing to help any situation. They think their mere presence is enough to calm a rebellion or stop a country in the midst of genocide.

Take the country of Sierra Leone for example. It was in the middle of a rebellion that was moving fast towards freedomtown (its capital). The Sierra Leone government contacted a PMC (Private Military Corporation) based in South Africa called Executive Outcomes. They were hired to help the Sierra Leone government stop the rebellion. In 2 months with about 200 operatives Executive Outcomes was able to push back a 10,000+ man rebellion.

Well, when the UN heard this, they said "No, we can't have hired guns going into a country and fighting an unsanctioned war."

The UN ordered Executive Outcomes to leave Sierra Leone. The UN then proceeded to send almost 18,000 soldiers of its UN Peacekeeping force into Sierra Leone. After 2 months, the rebellion had started once again. Then after 10 UN peacekeepers were kidnapped and murdered, the UN pulled all 18,000 troops out of Sierra Leone, leaving them with absolutely no protection against the rebels.

Look at Rwanda, almost 1,000,000 people were murdered in 1994, and the UN did nothing. They even stated that they would not use the term "Genocide" in regards to the Rwanda massacre, because then, the UN would have to act on it, which they never did.

So when you think the US is the only one who has selfish tendencies, you don't have to look any further then the other 190 countries that make up the UN.

I'm not saying the UN is good, the things that has been going on in Africa is totally sick, and I'm really... REALLY enraged(if that's a word) that this has been allowed to go on - I tend to see it as humans instead of politics, and this thing can make me cry... the people who are loosing from the big battle for money and oil are the poor ones, it's just so sad, how can a human life be measured in some wicked number - it's just not right! Anyways, the reason the US is the target right now is basically that it's the worlds biggest terrorist... with nukes. I'm not flaming the american people, I have many american friends and most of them are against their countries foreign laws, and if they aren't that's ok with me, it's a democrasy, they have a voice to that is to be heard, no matter what their opinion is.

now I was a little drunk when I wrote this so bear over with spelling errors and stuff like that

ps: in Denmark the minimum drinking age is 15 years

[nishantp]

The UN is irrelevant. Their humanitarian aid is good and all, but aside from that, irrelevant is the only way they can be described. The US was able to start a war, and win it, and the UN could do nothing to help them, and nothing to stop them. This from the organization that was supposed to "end all war".

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
1) Since when does any government keep its promises?
2) When has a country ever aided another country without a motive? Every country has an agenda when it comes to assisting other countries.

If there were oil in africa, the UN and every other country in the world would have stepped in to stop the genocide that has been going on there for decades.

The UN hasn't done a damn thing to help any situation. They think their mere presence is enough to calm a rebellion or stop a country in the midst of genocide.

Take the country of Sierra Leone for example. It was in the middle of a rebellion that was moving fast towards freedomtown (its capital). The Sierra Leone government contacted a PMC (Private Military Corporation) based in South Africa called Executive Outcomes. They were hired to help the Sierra Leone government stop the rebellion. In 2 months with about 200 operatives Executive Outcomes was able to push back a 10,000+ man rebellion.

Well, when the UN heard this, they said "No, we can't have hired guns going into a country and fighting an unsanctioned war."

The UN ordered Executive Outcomes to leave Sierra Leone. The UN then proceeded to send almost 18,000 soldiers of its UN Peacekeeping force into Sierra Leone. After 2 months, the rebellion had started once again. Then after 10 UN peacekeepers were kidnapped and murdered, the UN pulled all 18,000 troops out of Sierra Leone, leaving them with absolutely no protection against the rebels.

Look at Rwanda, almost 1,000,000 people were murdered in 1994, and the UN did nothing. They even stated that they would not use the term "Genocide" in regards to the Rwanda massacre, because then, the UN would have to act on it, which they never did.

So when you think the US is the only one who has selfish tendencies, you don't have to look any further then the other 190 countries that make up the UN.

Oh, and Denmark keeps its promises, I know were small, but d*mn, we do all we can for other countries... And I think that's just great... Or agenda isn't the money, we loose a lot of money on foreign support every year, but every single dane I know is proud to do so, hell, If I could give half my pay check to help someone else have a good life I'd do it - no question.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by nishantp
The UN is irrelevant. Their humanitarian aid is good and all, but aside from that, irrelevant is the only way they can be described. The US was able to start a war, and win it, and the UN could do nothing to help them, and nothing to stop them. This from the organization that was supposed to "end all war".

It's hard to have one such organization when the only super power in the world ins't backing it up

[nishantp]

Originally posted by vbNeo
It's hard to have one such organization when the only super power in the world ins't backing it up

Agreed...which again goes back to the original question.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by nishantp
Agreed...which again goes back to the original question.

I do believe a new UN needs to be reformed, this time really involving China and so forth - if not, we're gonna have a west <--> eastern war again... China is colonizing... and so is the US, it really doesn't look like it'll be a good outcome from an objective perspective =( , man, I'm 16 I really shouldn't be thinking about this stuff now should i ?

[Skitchen8]

vbNeo you are under a certain age, therefore you know nothing... sorry, you can't have an opinion on this forum...

It has very little to do with age, although age is definitely a factor. It has to do with life experience (the younger you are the less overall life experience you have), and an exposure to a variety of different social/economical environments to appreciate the worlds diversity. It also has to do with the exposure to being on both sides of the Proletariat vs. Bourgeois argument.

That is an assumption that I have little life experience, you know nothing about me. People can experience a lot in a very little amount of time, and you don't necissarily need experience to form an opinion on something. For example a debate about time travel, to the best of my knowledge nobody has experience with that, but you can still have a debate about whether it is right or wrong and the complexities of doing such a thing. As far as being on both sides of the of the proletariat vs. bourgeois I may not have experienced the extremes of either, but I have been a member of both classes (at least by the government's socioeconomic standards) and have seen both in action at both ends of the spectrum (and, as you left out, the higher end. I don't know a fancy french word for it, so I'll just say the rich people).

This is a matter of perspective, and yes, because it isn't as bad as it was before it is considered better.
Let me ask you this..Why do you feel the economy is down?
The unemployment rate has steadily dropped from 6.3% in June 2003 to 5.6% in June 2004. Which means more jobs.
The average hourly earnings has increased from 13.97 in June of 2000 to 15.65 in June 2004.
The Consumer price index has dropped from 0.6% in June 2000 to 0.3% in June 2004.
And the Gross Domestic Product has increased 3.9% as of the 1st quarter of 2004.

Granted the economy isn't as strong as it could be, but it sure as hell isn't as bad as people like you think it is.

Somehow you know what I think?? The economy isn't good, it isn't as good as it could be, nor is it as bad as it could be. I'd personally prefer better.

What proof do you have to back this up???
This is nothing more than emotion speaking, based on absolutely no facts.

Hmmm... it was an opinion, imagine that, people offering their opinions in a debate... such a strange idea.
Besides, what exactly do you want proof on?? And how willing are you to provide proof that I'm wrong??
The second question being the most important. Whenever someone comes into an argument saying something the majority doesn't like they are asked to provide proof, while the popular side of the argument sits there with a complete lack of proof that would show I am wrong. No matter what anyone says on this particular matter it is nothing but an opinion based upon inferences.

Frivolous lawsuits do not increase health care costs. Not setting a monetary limit on malpractice damages is what has increased the cost of health care. When juries award victims millions or 10's of millions of dollars in malpractice claims, the insurance companies have to foot the bill for those costs, which in turn is passed on to you the insurance consumer. As soon as a reasonable limit is placed on malpractice damages, the sooner health care costs could drop.

I guess I used the wrong word, frivolous wasn't what I should have said (for this particular argument at least). I'll concede, you are correct.

You have every right to complain and criticize. But when you complain and criticize things you either know very little about or have never experienced, then your complaints and criticisms are just mooted by those of us who have experienced the things you complain about. Face it, you haven't experienced the true hardships life can deal a person.

Once again you are assuming things about me that you couldn't possibly know. You don't know what I've been through or what kind of life I have lived. I have experienced a lot of hardships life can deal a person, and no I'm not talking about "my parents wouldn't let me go out tonight" or "the girl who I loved who I've been dating for 2 days broke up with me" but I don't feel a need to go into detail, I like putting my past behind me and continuing on to a positive future.

Welcome to the real world...Simple fact is...nobody gives a **** about you or how you feel. Anymore than they give a **** about me or how I feel. You can do one of two things.
1) Sit around and ***** and complain about how the government is so bad, and life is so hard and poor people should get their teeth cleaned.

or

2) Quit bitching and take some action, do something about it.
If you don't like something, then try changing it.

Obviously you care how I feel and I care how you feel or neither of us would have wasted the time with this argument.

This is where age comes into play, without the right to vote (as if it mattered anyway, but I won't get into that) I have no say in the government in a classical sense, and face it, any letters I send to officials will get ignored by people who think the same way as you: that a young age automatically comes with ignorance and lack of knowledge. I donate money to cancer research and a few other charities, does that count as doing something?? I already explained I can't change the government... I do what I can, but I can't do much.


In closing I would like to say I am not here to make personal enemies with you or any other member of this forum. I enjoy good debates like this, and as an aspiring journalist hearing more sides of an argument can only help my pattern of thinking, and therefore, hopefully, my future carreer. I will not sway you into my line of thinking nor will you sway me into yours but even still a match of wits (which I must say, you have clearly won) is great fun for me.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
vbNeo you are under a certain age, therefore you know nothing... sorry, you can't have an opinion on this forum...

I must say I have to disagree with that, though I know you're speaking for my cause... This forum, and the people in it, has always weighed by the argumentation you were capable of presenting and not your age, this - however- is an isolated incident, and if I were the one who had said it I'd be ashamed, anyways, I agree with everything else you said =).

[Memnoch1207]

Originally posted by vbNeo
I must say I have to disagree with that, though I know you're speaking for my cause... This forum, and the people in it, has always weighed by the argumentation you were capable of presenting and not your age, this - however- is an isolated incident, and if I were the one who had said it I'd be ashamed, anyways, I agree with everything else you said =).

I believe he was patronizing me for my remarks about his age and his (possible) lack of worldly experience.

[mendhak]

Originally posted by honeybee

I have made it clear several times that I am not anti-American people. Although I am not crazy about all US-made stuff like some of the other people over here are, I think they have an equal right to live on this earth as mine. I am against the policies of the US government which seem to be utter selfish and short-sighted (and of the late heavy-handed).

The funny thing is, it's just like a football match. You have about 20 players playing, and you have about 50,000 referees in the stands, plus and additional million or so outside.

Same thing here. People outside the US most often have an opinon about how it should be run without living there, without knowing how things work, oronly assuming that the truth can be supplied by newspapers and a media so biased, it makes terrorists look like retards.

By coincidence, they will jump on top of everything that happens, everything we do, and attempt to give it an interpretation that gives off an appearance of the devil incognito. Has anyone ever considered their own country's actions? I say no.

Patriotism. Nice tool. Controls minds, does the thinking for you, and simultaneously makes you feel good about it.

I'd suggest you turn your TV off, and stop reading newspapers. I turned my TV off about 8 months ago. Helps a lot.

I have seldom remarked anything about the internal affairs of the US, or the non-political/military aspects of its foreign policies.

That's right. And I have never posted one inane, stupid, annoying, idiotic post in chit-chat or outside chit-chat.

[nishantp]

That is an assumption that I have little life experience, you know nothing about me. People can experience a lot in a very little amount of time, and you don't necissarily need experience to form an opinion on something. For example a debate about time travel, to the best of my knowledge nobody has experience with that, but you can still have a debate about whether it is right or wrong and the complexities of doing such a thing.

Thats badly flawed. Sure, in THAT example, no one has any first hand experience, but if someone did, would you repect his opinions more than someone who was just speculating? Probably. Thats their argument...if you're young, there's only so much you could have experienced, and experience counts more than the inexperienced care to admit. Sure, you don't need experience to have an opinion, but experience will make your opinion more credible.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by mendhak
Same thing here. People outside the US most often have an opinon about how it should be run without living there, without knowing how things work, oronly assuming that the truth can be supplied by newspapers and a media so biased, it makes terrorists look like retards.

By coincidence, they will jump on top of everything that happens, everything we do, and attempt to give it an interpretation that gives off an appearance of the devil incognito. Has anyone ever considered their own country's actions? I say no.

How the US government should run its own country is its own business. How they should dictate their policies to the other countries is not their business. Have you ever wondered what you are accusing other non-US people of doing, is what your government actually does? Isn't the US government forcing its opinions on other countries on how they should be run? Hell, they don't even have a proper intelligence service, so I guess they too must be relying on the TV and newspaper coverage

The US, the UK and now Australia. Three separate enquiries into the Iraq war, and they have all found there was no sufficient intelligence to back up the case for the Iraq war. The 9/11 commission in the US has found there was no connection between Al Qaeda and Iraq, as claimed by the US president. The only trouble is whenever the Iraq war issue will be raised, the only answer anyone will ever get from your government would be, "whatever has happened, has happened. It's time to move on" which only means the US government is free to exercise its own arbitrary powers anywhere around the world. Or maybe the US President can carry out his own whims, fancies and personal scores to settle. There simply doesn't exist any valid reason for the Iraq war. (Of course, the post-war reasons given by Bush and Blair are childish for several reasons. The biggest reason to doubt their intentions is they didn't mention any of the post-war reasons before the war.)

The UN is irrelevant because the biggest power in the UN is irresponsible. You call your country as the best democracy, yet you are comfortable with the fact that the US practically ignored 190+ members while going to war against Iraq, and that it still does the same about Israel. It just shows the US is trying to be the biggest dictator in the world.

.

[davebat]

Good point, but I think that a country the size of America does have a respnsibility towards other countries.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by mendhak

I'd suggest you turn your TV off, and stop reading newspapers. I turned my TV off about 8 months ago. Helps a lot.

I haven't watched TV for about 2 years now, only occasionally the news

[davebat]

Originally posted by vbNeo
I haven't watched TV for about 2 years now.

Ay carumba, you need to get out less.

[vbNeo]

Originally posted by davebat
Ay carumba, you need to get out less.

- first time I've heard that one

[honeybee]

Originally posted by davebat
Good point, but I think that a country the size of America does have a respnsibility towards other countries.

Sadly, where it matters most, America doesn't seem to think it has a responsibility towards other countries. To name just a single instance take the debate in the WTO over farm subsidies, where the developed nations are systematically trying to push forward their own agenda instead of ensuring the developing countries get a fair and equal treatment. The Cancun meet and before that (I don't remember where), all in all I think two WTO meets have ended in a deadlock because the US and other developed nations don't want to discuss the agriculture issue. Do you think the US is acting responsible? If the US attitude persists, you will have another international organization classified as a failure. It's this arrogant and high-handed behaviour of the US that rendered the UN impotent and that will render the WTO meaningless. Before the Cancun meet, I think the US and many other developed nations tried to enter into separate trade agreements with under-developed nations to try and break the unity among the nations which stalled the Cancun meet. Which only shows the US is not responsible, but utterly selfish.

.