honeybee

[kovan]

how much of the following is true in hinduism about women?

==============
1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.
2. She has no property or inheritance rights.
3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.
4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.
5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).
6. She cannot remarry.
7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage!)

[kovan]

hey honeybee
can you confirm please?
i dont like assuming, thats why i am asking

thanks

[fallnwrld]

Damn, chicks have it that hard?

[kovan]

looks like it since honeybee wont say if its true or not..

[G.Kumaraguru]

Hi ... I am an Indian..Living in India.
So...I can Tell you the facts.

1. The Hindu Woman has no right to divorce her husband.
This is false...

A Hindu woman who can proove that her husband is incapable of being a father or indulged in adultery or is suffering from incurable disease(like AIDS) can Get a Divorce from her husband.

2. She has no property or inheritance rights.

Haah...That was long long ago...
Now women can have equal share in all inherited wealth.

3. Choice of partner is limited because she can only marry within her own caste; moreover her horoscope must match that of the intending bridegroom/family.

---Is this supposed to be a joke ?? Kovan are u joking ???

4. The family of the girl has to offer an enormous dowry to the bridegroom/family.

Though this is 90% True..You should be happy with the 10% that is good.

5. If her husband dies she should commit Sati (being cremated with her dead husband). Since today's law forbids Sati, society mainly punishes her in other "holy" ways (see below).

No ,This is a Crime Punishable by law, and it does not happen.

6. She cannot remarry.
---She can.. Plenty of them are remarrying.

7. The widow is considered to be a curse and must not be seen in public.She cannot wear jewelry or colorful clothes. (She should not even take part in her children's marriage

--- This is True to an extent of 50% mainly due to orthdox views of the Older Generation People...after 20+ Years from now When that older generation would have perished to dust...this evil would be gone forever.

Reference
Article By Dr.Rekha Singh
http://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Huma/HumaSing.htm




[Edited by G.Kumaraguru on 11-28-2000 at 10:38 AM]

[kovan]

we are not talkinga bout people living in india
we are talking about who follow hindiusm
and are strict about it..

[fallnwrld]

Wow, I actually learned something from the chit chat forum

[kovan]

fall what you learn?


guru...
i am trying to undrestand hinduism
as far as what i read, there isn't really a holy book for hindu's

where are these laws/rules
and how does one go about making them, changing them ect

clearly most of what i posted above is practiced
and i was wondering why its practiced and where are the roots of these practices..

[kovan]

who wrote those?

[G.Kumaraguru]

Very Inquisitive ??

----
SANSKRIT LITERATURE

Sanskrit literature can be classified under six orthodox heads and four secular heads. The six orthodox sections form the authoritative scriptures of the Hindus. The four secular sections embody the latter developments in classical Sanskrit literature.

The six scriptures are: (i) Srutis, (ii) Smritis, (iii) Itihasas, (iv) Puranas, (v) Agamas and (vi) Darsanas.

The four secular writings are: (i) Subhashitas, (ii) Kavyas, (iii) Natakas and (iv) Alankaras.

VEDA-THE REVEALED WISDOM

The Srutis are called the Vedas, or the Amnaya. The Hindus have received their religion through revelation, the Vedas. These are direct intuitional revelations and are held to be Apaurusheya or entirely superhuman, without any author in particular. The Veda is the glorious pride of the Hindus, nay, of the whole world!

The term Veda comes from the root 'Vid', to know. The word Veda means knowledge. When it is applied to scripture, it signifies a book of knowledge. The Vedas are the foundational scriptures of the Hindus. The Veda is the source of the other five sets of scriptures, why, even of the secular and the materialistic. The Veda is the storehouse of Indian wisdom and is a memorable glory which man can never forget till eternity.

The Vedas are the eternal truths revealed by God to the great ancient Rishis of India. The word Rishi means a Seer, from dris, to see. He is the Mantra-Drashta, seer of Mantra or thought. The thought was not his own. The Rishis saw the truths or heard them. Therefore, the Vedas are what are heard (Sruti). The Rishi did not write. He did not create it out of his mind. He was the seer of thought which existed already. He was only the spiritual discoverer of the thought. He is not the inventor of the Veda.

THE UNIQUE GLORY OF THE VEDAS

The Vedas represent the spiritual experiences of the Rishis of yore. The Rishi is only a medium or an agent to transmit to people the intuitional experiences which he received. The truths of the Vedas are revelations. All the other religions of the world claim their authority as being delivered by special messengers of God to certain persons, but the Vedas do not owe their authority to any one. They are themselves the authority as they are eternal, as they are the Knowledge of the Lord.

Lord Brahma, the Creator, imparted the divine knowledge to the Rishis or Seers. The Rishis disseminated the knowledge. The Vedic Rishis were great realised persons who had direct intuitive perception of Brahman or the Truth. They were inspired writers. They built a simple, grand and perfect system of religion and philosophy from which the founders and teachers of all other religions have drawn their inspiration.

The Vedas are the oldest books in the library of man. The truths contained in all religions are derived from the Vedas and are ultimately traceable to the Vedas. The Vedas are the fountain-head of religion. The Vedas are the ultimate source to which all religious knowledge can be traced. Religion is of divine origin. It was revealed by God to man in the earliest times. It is embodied in the Vedas.

The Vedas are eternal. They are without beginning and end. An ignorant man, may say how a book can be without beginning or end. By the Vedas, no books are meant. Vedas came out of the breath of the Lord. They are not the composition of any human mind. They were never written, never created. They are eternal and impersonal. The date of the Vedas has never been fixed. It can never be fixed. Vedas are eternal spiritual truths. Vedas are an embodiment of divine knowledge. The books may be destroyed, but the knowledge cannot be destroyed. Knowledge is eternal. In that sense, the Vedas are eternal.

DIVISIONS OF THE VEDAS

The Veda is divided into four great books: the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sama-Veda and the Atharva-Veda. The Yajur-Veda is again divided into two parts, the Sukla and the Krishna. The Krishna or the Taittiriya is the older book and the Sukla or the Vajasaneya is a later revelation to sage Yajnavalkya from the resplendent Sun-God.

The Rig-Veda is divided into twenty-one sections, the Yajur-Veda into one hundred and nine sections, the Sama-Veda into one thousand sections and the Atharva-Veda into fifty sections. In all, the whole Veda is thus divided into one thousand one hundred and eighty recensions.

Each Veda consists of four parts: the Mantra-Samhitas or hymns, the Brahmanas or explanations of Mantras or rituals, the Aranyakas, and the Upanishads. The division of the Vedas into four parts is to suit the four stages in a man's life.

The Mantra-Samhitas are hymns in praise of the Vedic God for attaining material prosperity here and happiness hereafter. They are metrical poems comprising prayers, hymns and incantations addressed to various deities, both subjective and objective. The Mantra portion of the Vedas is useful for the Brahmacharins.

The Rig-Veda Samhita is the grandest book of the Hindus, the oldest and the best. It is the Great Indian Bible, which no Hindu would forget to adore from the core of his heart. Its style, the language and the tone are most beautiful and mysterious. Its immortal Mantras embody the greatest truths of existence, and it is perhaps the greatest treasure in all the scriptural literature of the world. Its priest is called the Hotri.

The Yajur-Veda Samhita is mostly in prose and is meant to be used by the Adhvaryu, the Yajur-Vedic priest, for superfluous explanations of the rites in sacrifices, supplementing the Rig-Vedic Mantras.

The Sama-Veda Samhita is mostly borrowed from the Rig-Vedic Samhita, and is meant to be sung by the Udgatri, the Sama Vedic priest, in sacrifices.

The Atharva-Veda Samhita is meant to be used by the Brahma, the Atharva-Vedic priest, to correct the mispronunciations and wrong performances that may accidentally be committed by the other three priests of the sacrifice.

The Brahmana portions guide people to perform sacrificial rites. They are prose explanations of the method of using the Mantras in the Yajna or the sacrifice. The Brahmana portion is suitable for the householders.

There are two Brahmanas to the Rig-Veda-the Aitareya and the Sankhayana. "The Rig-Veda", says Max Muller, "is the most ancient book of the world. The sacred hymns of the Brahmanas stand unparalleled in the literature of the whole world; and their preservation might well be called miraculous."

The Satapatha Brahmana belongs to the Sukla-Yajur-Veda. The Krishna-Yajur-Veda has the Taittiriya and the Maitrayana Brahmanas. The Tandya or Panchavimsa, the Shadvimsa, the Chhandogya, the Adbhuta, the Arsheya and the Upanishad Brahmanas belong to the Sama-Veda. The Brahmana of the Atharva-Veda is called the Gopatha. Each of the Brahmanas has got an Aranyaka.

The Aranyakas are the forest books, the mystical sylvan texts which give philosophical interpretations of the rituals. The Aranyakas are intended for the Vanaprasthas or hermits who prepare themselves for taking Sannyasa.

The Upanishads are the most important portion of the Vedas. The Upanishads contain the essence or the knowledge portion of the Vedas. The philosophy of the Upanishads is sublime, profound, lofty and soul-stirring. The Upanishads speak of the identity of the individual soul and the Supreme Soul. They reveal the most subtle and deep spiritual truths. The Upanishads are useful for the Sannyasins.

The subject matter of the whole Veda is divided into Karma- Kanda, Upasana-Kanda and Jnana-Kanda. The Karma-Kanda or Ritualistic Section deals with various sacrifices and rituals. The Upasana-Kanda or Worship-Section deals with various kinds of worship or meditation. The Jnana-Kanda or Knowledge-Section deals with the highest knowledge of Nirguna Brahman. The Mantras and the Brahmanas constitute Karma-Kanda; the Aranyakas Upasana-Kanda; and the Upanishads Jnana-Kanda.

--

[fallnwrld]

I didn't even know they hard it hard like that back in da dayz, I new men where more dominant but can't remarry and burn themselves with there husband, thatz nutz!

[kovan]

so my question is the first post..

where are these people practicing from then?
i mean burning of window ect..

and due these sections of law/guidance/scripture change?
if so
who changes them''

[kovan]

sorry but i dont follow a religion that is passed down for ONE time and changes when it is to our inconvienient

and i ment widows..
i am terrible at spelling because i am lazzy

so as far as a religion that changes to peoples needs and cant stand for all times without any change to it then cool

i mean i can start my own religion tomorrow and make rules as i go along..



[Edited by kovan on 11-29-2000 at 12:40 PM]

[kovan]

if you ask a believing muslim why they wear the veil
their response would be "because it protects my rights, and my needs as a women"
so you used a very bad example..

whats wrong with a discussion.. i dont like fighting
i like DISCUSSING

the organization that serve people would be a democratic government so thats not catagorized as a religion anymore
if joe blow can change something or have an effect to change a law that he doesnt like
this is a government of democracy not religion


so in short, i just wanna make sure i dont get wrong info
hindu scriptures change when there needs to be a change?
because its no longer convenient for the people?

[kovan]

ok so there is no scriptures..
if (even thou there is according to guru...)
literature n e ways..

but if these laws are written by the people for the people
how does the 33 gods fit in

according to what i have read from your posts so far
your saying that this religion started by the people for the people and wondering how gods play a role in this..

[kovan]

online girlfriendS? haha
ok well i am not singling out your religion
i am just pointing out what you said

you said that hinduism changes based on peoples convenience
and no not all religions change for peoples convenience

and yes all religions are to guide people
not make everything they WANT convenient..
what they want might not be the best thing for thm
want and need are different things

but we can talk about this when you find a gf

good nite

[HarryW]

if you ask a believing muslim why they wear the veil
their response would be "because it protects my rights, and my needs as a women"

What the....? *Totally confused* Please explain to me what their reasoning was that brought them to this conclusion.

[barrk]

Their husbands and fathers told them so.

[HarryW]

Exactly.

[rabih]

Muslim women wear veils, 'cause they feel it protects them from the eyes of Lusty Guys. By hiding their hair under a veil, they would look less attractive and therefore avoid being stared at by people who enjoy staring at Beautiful chicks. Islam believes this is one way to protect a woman. I don't approve of it however, I guess that in this twenty First Century, women are bold enough to such offending stary people and could manage without the need of a veil.
It's up to women to decide such a thing of course, especially that my point is a man's point of view.

Why talk is such boring stuff guys? beats me

[rabih]

Muslim women wear veils, 'cause they feel it protects them from the eyes of Lusty Guys. By hiding their hair under a veil, they would look less attractive and therefore avoid being stared at by people who enjoy staring at Beautiful chicks. Islam believes this is one way to protect a woman. I don't approve of it however, I guess that in this twenty First Century, women are bold enough to such offending stary people and could manage without the need of a veil.
It's up to women to decide such a thing of course, especially that my point is a man's point of view.

Why talk about such boring stuff guys? beats me

[kovan]

barrk very wrong
like i said
dont look at so called muslim countries
look at western countries and how many actually wear the veil
and father or husband cant say **** to them since they live in a society where women can do what ever they want..

[kovan]

rabih
no one can FORCE them to wear it
those that do, do it for their protection

[rabih]

Kovan
I agree that no one can force a muslim woman to wear a veil. It's completely her choice, and the way she understands her religion. If she believes that a veil would protect her, then she'd wear it. And if she thinks that she can protect herself without a veil, then she'd not need it. Many muslim men - usually orthodox guys -argue that a veil is to be forced upon ALL women, but that's not how Islam wanted things to be. Islam wanted to ensure the women's safety long ago, when they were much weaker and there was nothing like Women's rights movements. For instance, you are forced to wear a jacket in Winter to protect yourself from getting a cold, but in summer it's up to you whether to wear a jacket or stand there nude.
When the root of the problem no longer exists, then the solution is no longer necessary too. That brings a topic of Different Religions Flexibility In Dealing With Constant Change... I know you'd start another thread on that issue now, I should have kept my mouth shut.

[kovan]

but in the summer if you felt cold would you not try to wear something to warm you up or as nice and comfy technology we got, you would get a state of the art heater

so no matter how you go about it you still need the protection there

weather you use it or not, thats upto you

and thanks for at least seeing the point of view why a muslim women wears the veil (now if your talking about the full cover, including the face..) i TOTALLY think that was never mentioned in the islamic law but some choose to even covr their face

as for the hair
its recommended that you cover it
as you stated, its totally a womens choice weather to cover it or not

no dont shut up, i think religious discussions are facinating because some ignorant people might undrestand something they never new

and not in any way will i or islam be threatened by those who are ignorant of islam but still try to make it look like a religion that tortures women..

so in short to all those who are ignorant of islam and treatment of women

ISLAM is a SHIELD for every muslim who follows it
it protects them form every harm that can be done to them
its upto the MUSLIM to use that shield, weather it be the veil, not drinking, ect



Barrk
i am SHOCKED that you actually hold the view of father and husbands force it on them

and HarryW, what would you know about islam and why they wear the veil, but you only go along with everyone else's opinion

because you agreed with barrk in your second last post
and in your last post you asked how does it protect a women..

clearly sign of ignorance


in short
islam does NOT change to fit peoples needs, it never has, it never will
because Qur'an is constant

[HarryW]

No Kovan don't tell me I'm just ignorant, that's just you looking down on everyone as ignorant again when they don't agree with every word you say.

You said

if you ask a believing muslim why they wear the veil
their response would be "because it protects my rights, and my needs as a women"

Now why would they think this? Do you believe that it protects their rights? If so, which rights? And how? Do you believe that it protects their needs? If so, which needs? Bear in mind that you said it protected their rights and needs as a woman so I want to know exactly why they should feel they need to wear a veil.

If Islam is such a fantastic shield against the evils of this world, why should a woman feel the need to wear a veil in order to protect herself? You have basically said that it's okay to say women should wear veils because they think it's a good idea too. Well so what? They're just following what they think their religion says they should do so what opinion do you expect them to hold? Do you think that wearing veils empowers women or do you think the opposite is true?

They shouldn't have to wear a veil to feel that their rights and needs are being protected. They should be protected anyway.

But of course I'm only going along with everyone else's opinion here, and I'm ignorant of Islam, and I'm probably some kind of devil walking the earth sent here to make you question your faith.

You are not a reasonable person, Kovan, I have seen it in all these discussions, and I don't expect you to agree with anything I say. I just think it's very rude to tell people how ignorant they are whenever someone disagrees. But Is suppose that's cultural is it? That's your excuse for every other bad thing.

*Sighs and walks off muttering*

[kovan]

i think what i sad to you about you being ignorant was 100% the truth
because barrk said:

Their husbands and fathers told them so.

and your reply was

Exactly.

and your next post was your confused and you dont know why

how can you agree to something which you have no knowledge of?
i think thats classified under the ignorant catagory

veil protects her from rape (because men dont see exactly what she looks like, and her beauty protects her from being raped)
as well it protects her needs as no man should look at her in a sexual way
proven so that hair is one of the things that makes a women look attractive
but here
this article puts it better than i could ever and you might see why they wear the veil

and no they dont do it because they THINK
i would like you to go upto a muslim women
and ask her why she wears it with explaination and how it protects her rights.. (and i know jethro is about to jump in here and say "well wont her husband kill"..
no i think to undrestand the real reason you must ask the person doing the act and why
so as a suggestion and idea to enlighten you about islam i would definately recommend that you ask a WOMEN
instead of listening to me..

what i have said and my reasoning is mostly from the women in my family and my most recent girlfriend
so you could say i am talking from experienced persons point of you

BUT i definately dont want you to take my word for it..

They're just following what they think their religion says they should do so what opinion do you expect them to hold? Do you think that wearing veils empowers women or do you think the opposite is true?

and no they are not following opinions of ANYONE
but rather following whta is in the Qur'an
this is for BELIEVING muslim women, if they dont believe in islam then why should the bother with it?
and God didn't send Qur'an down for men
its for both sexes, and encourages BOTH to read it
and i so encourage WOMEn to read it more than the mean so that she has better undrestanding of whats expected of her
rather than the men telling her whats expected of her

if your asking ME what i think
i think it gives them protection from rape, assault and many other bad things in life


here is the another article,
i coudn't find the one i was looking for
(this gives you references from Qur'an rather than men)
http://www.themodernreligion.com/wom...uesofHijab.htm

[kovan]

no recommendation of women wearing veilds is NOT culture
its 100% islam
and no i dont use excuse to cover up islam
i say what is truthful(to the best i can) and go againts what is false
and i clearly distinguish between what is culture and what is islam

so allah RECOMMENDS women to wear the veil for her OWN protection, she doesnt have to do it,
but if she is a BELIEVING muslim, she will see why she will do it

a CLOSE friend of mine
recently got married to some guy in texas
HIS parents FORCED her to NOT to cover her hair
becomes they come from a family where they dont follow islamic laws ect

but that person saw and knew exactly why she was wearing it
i talked to her the other day
she now wears it again, WITHOUT anyones authority
if it was upto her husband and inlaws
she would not be wearing it

so you get cases from BOTH sides


and i think i am being VERY reasonable because i only call someone ignorant when they show their ignorance

and no i dont think your evil at all
and actually it makes me happy that you question my faith
because it gives me an oppurtunity to tell you the truth about islam rather than what you heard on media or what you thought of islam
so the more questions you ask the better

and if you read what Defarm started
i was not offended at ALL by that
and most of the things he said were absolutely false and were UNislamic so gave me an oppurtonity to correct the miss undrestanding


keep asking

[HarryW]

So you agree she's just doing it because the Quran says so? Well that's a good reason isn't it *Rolls eyes*

Women shouldn't need to wear a veil to protect themselves from rape and assault and 'many other bad things in life'. It's putting the onus on women to solve a problem that shouldn't be their responsibility, and that's not fair. Now I don't expect life to be fair, life is not fair, but your Islamic Utopia ought to be fair in principle at least.

I could ask a muslim woman why she wears a veil, but I'm not going to because they seem to all be very shy and I get the impression they wouldn't appreciate my interrogation. Hmm I wonder where that correlation comes from?

[kovan]

if she is a BELIEVER
then she will do what the Qur'an says so
because if she is a believer then that means she believes Qur'an came from God
and who knows best about humans? and whats best for them
obviously the creator

i have to pray 5 times a day
because i believe it serves my purposes

Qur'an says i have to do it
so i do it
and i have my reasons..

about the shyness
i believe that is a stereotype (not just you saying it)

infact MOST muslim women happen to be VERY open about their beliefs
specially living in a society where people constantly put their religion and belief down

i honestly think you should ask rather than take my opinion

So you agree she's just doing it because the Quran says so? Well that's a good reason isn't it *Rolls eyes*

well to YOU it might not seem to be a good reason because you do not undrestand MANY things in the Qur'an and why Qur'an says to do them, i guess in short you have to be a believer to undrestand these things

but DEFINATELY encourage you to ask if not one, few
rather than take my opinion for it or Allah's word for it even

get the person thats doing the act's opinion

[HarryW]

Ahh I see, I have to be a believer to see the sense in it. Of course.

*Sigh* Sometimes I wish Gen-X was back

[kovan]

so my final words to you on this is
get out of the ignorance stage
and learn about why such things are in islam
it certainly will help you UNDRESTAND better
and you wont hear me say your ignorant if you show some signs intelligence related to the topic

[HarryW]

Yes I'm ignorant aren't I? I thought so too. If only I'd believe. And if I don't believe I'm ignorant. Such a perfect circle that means you're always right, and guess what? I'm always wrong! Ah well there's not hope for me really because I'm just so stupendously ignorant. What a shame that it's beyond my little mind to understand that you do it like this because the big book says so.

[kovan]

dont be so hard on yourself
why dont you learn about "the big book"

and NO you dont have to agree with me to not be an ignorant person. you just have to undrestand certain things

if i am right

you didn't even know this veil stuff was in the qur'an to began with
you thought so called muslim made it up

but n e ways
i think this conversation will be more interesting if you knew about islam
and to do that you have to read or ask

truely i will do all i can to help you with your question
and no i will NOT twist the truth to make it look like "islam and all that and more"
iw ill only tlel you what islam says

have you seen me call de farm ignorant? no i dont think so
because he posses the knowledge to discuss and state facts

so i only call someone an ignorant person if they show ignorance..

[HarryW]

Oh I see so you want to tell people about Islam, but you want them to know all about it already. Interesting.

And no you're not right.

[barrk]

Why are you bothering to argue with Kovan, Harry??? You cannot have a rational conversation with someone who believes he is always right.

[kovan]

i want them to know all about what they DONT know (that is if i know it myself)


every person that brings islam up
i ask them to LEARN about it before they can discuss it
and everyone of them i have offered to answer their questions to best of my abilities
and we can have a discussion

and i make no exception for you or anyone else
if you have a question ask
but if you dont posses the knowledge dont get into an arguement/discussion to began with

[kovan]

barrk i dont believe i am always right
i just happen to state facts which both of you totally had a miss undrestanding of th concept
its my job to correct such mis undrestandings

[HarryW]

Fair point Katie. Ah well, I shall have to remain one of the ignorant masses, who doesn't live their life out of a book.

[barrk]

Ignorance is bliss.....


Kovan Why do you feel it is your job? Did it ever occur to you that we may be completely satisfied with our current belief system? Did it ever occur to you that the evidence of how most people use the religion of Islam as a leash leads us to our conclusions much more than anything you can say? I am done with this "conversation". You will never win any recruits with words...the nation of islam's actions speak volumns.

I'm through.