Cheats

[MartinLiss]

The author of [edit: thread deleted] is asking for help in making a cheat for a web game. It was reported to me and you can see my response in the thread. If anyone has some constructive input I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

[Foxer]

UNLEASH THE BEASTS!!!!!

[MartinLiss]

Originally posted by MartinLiss
...constructive input....

Please.

[Foxer]

Hehe - like in the other thread - he's in the wrong place.

If General VB Coding Questions ain't the place for that - Chit Chat certainly isn't. Others might help but I hope he fails in his quest ...

[MartinLiss]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
...If General VB Coding Questions ain't the place for that ...

If it's not illegal and he wants help doing it in VB, then why not.?

[Foxer]

If you're looking for a debate on illegal vs immoral, shall we start another thread? That would be worthy of chit-chat.

* EDIT * immoral - see also socially acceptable

I live in Nigeria (not really) and I need help writing an e-mail spamming program in vb.net - can I expect a hostile response?

[crptcblade]

I suppose since its not illegal, but I think I remember similar threads getting deleted in the past. Wonder what Brad! thinks...

[MartinLiss]

This is Chit Chat.

Spam is illegal and even if it wasn't it's against the AUP.

[Foxer]

I'm in Nigeria and I'm spamming Nigeria but you are right - that is against the AUP.

This is also in the AUP

You will not use these Forums for the purposes of sharing or distributing viruses, licenses, registration information, software keys, "cracks," or other information designed to do harm to or allow unlawful access to any computer hardware, software, networks, or any other systems.

I've bold cracks. Is a cheat different to a crack?

[NoteMe]

Why do anyone cheat in games...what so fun about the game afterwards. And you are ruining the whole game for the others too.

I have only been a serious game player once. I was playing Vietcong. And I was in a clan (yeah SLAP me for that). We where playing a game. We where 4 and the other team was 10 random guys. We had played for about 3 hours, and was nearly winning. THen a cheater with a skin hack, changed his soldier to a tank, and with some see throug walls hack, he could also shoot us throught the walls. What was so fun about that. We had been playing for 3 hours and then a cheater turns around the game in 10 minutes, and we lose. That just ****ing irritates me. I will never help a cheater in any way. If anyone ask me for help in making anti cheats for their game, I will be glad to help, but to cheat...NO WAY...

[MartinLiss]

I'm not defending the guy but in your opinion, how does a cheat "harm... or allow unlawful access to any computer hardware, software, networks, or any other systems".

[NoteMe]

You are not killing any one if you use your hands in football either (Soccer for those who are american and don't know what football really is..), but it is still ruining the game...

[MartinLiss]

Originally posted by NoteMe
You are not killing any one if you use your hands in football either (Soccer for those who are american and don't know what football really is..), but it is still ruining the game...

I don't think that analogy applies here because using your hands in soccer/football is illegal under the rules and you are subject to penalty.

[NoteMe]

Othen in games (like Vietcong) there is leagal issues with altering the game in any matters, like making NoCDCrack, Skinn hacks and so on....

[Foxer]

It doesn't - but if a cheat is a crack, or performs the same function in a different form, then it's against the AUP.

Cracks take different forms and I suppose in the context of that line of the AUP, they are referring to cracks that destroy or circumvent licenses.

If this guy succeeds, he'll have a crack that will ... dunno ... guarantee a high score or something.

It will be a crack. Would it be against the AUP? Only if that line refers to all cracks or only cracks that do harm or circumvent licenses/copyright etc.

That's the technical arguement.

The other emotional arguement is

"Does anyone want VB forums to be a place to find non-harmful cracks for all the games in game-land?"

If the answer is NO and the AUP won't prevent that, then the AUP needs to be ammended.

[MartinLiss]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
It doesn't - but if a cheat is a crack, or performs the same function in a different form, then it's against the AUP.

Cracks take different forms and I suppose in the context of that line of the AUP, they are referring to cracks that destroy or circumvent licenses.

If this guy succeeds, he'll have a crack that will ... dunno ... guarantee a high score or something.

It will be a crack. Would it be against the AUP? Only if that line refers to all cracks or only cracks that do harm or circumvent licenses/copyright etc.

That's the technical arguement.

The other emotional arguement is

"Does anyone want VB forums to be a place to find non-harmful cracks for all the games in game-land?"

If the answer is NO and the AUP won't prevent that, then the AUP needs to be ammended.

I agree with most of that . I've asked Brad to comment.

[Foxer]

Smart move I feel. To follow "the letter of the law" is difficult as "the law" is a little vague.

If someone were to start a poll on what the AUP should say regarding cheat development, I've little doubt of it's outcome - I'm guessing Martin would not be surprised either.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
I'm in Nigeria and I'm spamming Nigeria but you are right - that is against the AUP.

This is also in the AUP



I've bold cracks. Is a cheat different to a crack?

I think cheats can be called separate from cracks. Cheats are probably shortcuts built by programmers into their code to facilitate easier testing of certain features. As such they are part of the code, and you are committing absolutely no crime in using cheats.

Cracks are an altogether different game....

.

[NoteMe]

Originally posted by honeybee
Cheats are probably shortcuts built by programmers into their code to facilitate easier testing of certain features. As such they are part of the code, and you are committing absolutely no crime in using cheats.

.

If you make a cheat for a game you need to alter the EXE file or the resource files for the game. As I said for most shelf games there is legal issues about altering the code or resources for a game. So again, thats not legal...

[RuDeDoGg]

There is nothing wrong when it comes to cheating at a game like Runescape (www.runescape.com) It is very annoying having to click thousands of times to gain lvls. I just like making it more fun for me and my hand :P Please help me with this project. I have been wanting to make cheats for this game for a VERY VERY VERY long time. Please help me.

[BrianS]

Once a cheater, always a cheater...

And per the Terms of Use for that particular game:

"Cheating
You must not exploit any cheats or errors which you find in the Multiplayer Games or RuneScape. Any cheats or errors which you discover must be reported immediately to us.

You must not attempt to use other programs in conjunction with the Multiplayer Games or RuneScape to give yourself an unfair advantage. You may not use any bots or macros to control your character for you. When you are not playing a Game you must logout. You may not circumvent any of our mechanisms designed to logout inactive users automatically. "

[Foxer]

So you level up 100 times faster than the next guy - like instant super hero or something.

It's immoral, against the rules and I say

UNLEASH THE BEASTS

[Foxer]

NoteMe - you'd find such a cheat could be made by developing an app that sits in your system tray. It would be "watch" the active window for certain items, like a monster etc and then move the mouse and execute a click event or whatever. Technically, the executables/binaries are not being modified. How it would do that is a technical matter I shan't go into here.

BrianS has pointed out that it is against the rules of the game, which no doubt every player must accept when joining.

So I don't think it's illegal in a legal sense, but it is cheating in terms of the game.

Certainly immoral imo even if the rules didn't state that and as far as recruiting help from VBForums - I've made my case and I guess the jury is out on that one.

[BodwadUK]

I dont mind cheats on single player games but it is irresponsible and selfish on multiplayer games. I have seen whole games fail because of cheaters. This causes a loss to gamers and comercial people alike. IT CAN HARM PEOPLE

[mendhak]

Cheats are just as legal as Easter Eggs in a program.

It's the author(s) of the game that have put it there, so I see no reason why it should be considered illegal.

[mendhak]

Unless it's cheats for a game he didn't write!

[TheGuru]

I think I'll go aimbot a bit.... bbs

[Slaine]

I don't see the problem. A computer game is about pitting your own skill/ability against that of the computer, or other players in the case of a multiplayer game.

If the lad wants to create a helper/cheater app that does this then he is merely applying his skills laterally - at the end of the day every other player has the opportunity to do the same - but perhaps not the skill.

If he succeeeds with his app then he is being more skillful and deserves greater success within the game.

If he was asking where to download a ready made cheating app then I might have a different view though.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by NoteMe
If you make a cheat for a game you need to alter the EXE file or the resource files for the game. As I said for most shelf games there is legal issues about altering the code or resources for a game. So again, thats not legal...

I don't think the cheat codes are developed after the games have been written. They are 'built' into the game, very much like easter eggs.

Altering the code and resource files etc. might be illegal, but that's not what cheat codes mean. That's cracking.

You may be able to make a crack for any games, but you can't write cheat codes for a game which doesn't have them. Do you think a god mode function incorporated in Quake is a 'crack' ? If you have any doubts about this matter, why not just contact a game developer company like EA Sports?

I am not 100% sure, but in the Tomb Raider I think there's a cheat which is activated by following a certain sequence of movements of Lara Croft. Do you seriously think such a feature was added onto the main game 'after' it was released?

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[DeadEyes]

Am I missing something here, how does anything his asking for help someone cheat in a game?
What I read from his post is that his looking for an applet that will help him control "CERTAIN" applications using Sendkeys and Mouse clicks. This to me sounds like his trying to gain control of "CERTAIN" apps on the pc of a user who visits his site.
It also shows a lack of any real knowledge.

[honeybee]

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/9448/intro.html

But "What is a cheat code?" some of you might ask. By definition, a cheat code is an undocumented feature of a computer game that will let you do things that normally you could never do or have difficulty doing. The most common type of cheat code is what is known as a type in code, which is to say that a string of characters (most often some sort of word) is typed in on the keyboard during the game just as if you were entering it into a word processor. Many cheat codes are very powerful indeed. Some will let you be invincible, others will let you walk through the walls of the game like a phantom, and yet others will even let you win the game outright.

So it is reasonable to ask why cheat codes were created in the first place if they are so powerful and can ruin the fun of a game (I believe that someone of note once said "Everything in moderation. . ."). The answer is really quite logical when you think about it for a minute. Originally, companies would put codes in early versions of a product in order to test them. They would allow testers to jump to certain levels eaisly, and then test various combinations of items. It also makes it much eaiser to demo a game when you are not dying every time you start up the game. Cheat codes are still used for just this purpose in a very real way, but often they are never removed from the final version of a game.

A cheat code of Road Rash will work whether you have the unaltered original version of Road Rash or a pirated version. You don't need anything but the original game software for the cheats to run. You DO NOT tamper with the code or resource files in order to use cheats. The cheats are BUILT INTO the games.

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[MartinLiss]

Originally posted by honeybee
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/9448/intro.html




A cheat code of Road Rash will work whether you have the unaltered original version of Road Rash or a pirated version. You don't need anything but the original game software for the cheats to run. You DO NOT tamper with the code or resource files in order to use cheats. The cheats are BUILT INTO the games.

.

Maybe that is a valid definition of a cheat, but I don't thjink it's the only one, and it doesn't apply to what the user in the thread I referred to wants to do.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
It doesn't - but if a cheat is a crack, or performs the same function in a different form, then it's against the AUP.

Cracks take different forms and I suppose in the context of that line of the AUP, they are referring to cracks that destroy or circumvent licenses.

If this guy succeeds, he'll have a crack that will ... dunno ... guarantee a high score or something.

It will be a crack. Would it be against the AUP? Only if that line refers to all cracks or only cracks that do harm or circumvent licenses/copyright etc.

That's the technical arguement.

The other emotional arguement is

"Does anyone want VB forums to be a place to find non-harmful cracks for all the games in game-land?"

If the answer is NO and the AUP won't prevent that, then the AUP needs to be ammended.

I don't think use of cheat codes in games is against the law or against the AUP. And I guess in most online games there's a provision to disable cheat codes so players don't cheat their way ahead of others or get an unfair advantage. However the provision to disable cheats also means in other words that where it doesn't affect other players or where you are not getting any unfair advantage over others (such as in a desktop game) you ARE allowed to use cheats.

I once hunted for a cheat code for Diablo II and landed at a page where it gave information on how to edit a saved game for Diablo II. So you would start the game, save it and then edit it to suit yourself, giving yourself loads of gold, different spells and all that. That MIGHT be on the border between cheats and cracks, but is very hard to determine. Apart from this kind of cheating, most other cheats fall well within the legal framework, in my opinion. If I play Quake at my home in god mode all the time, the most I would be doing is killing my competitive spirit and turning myself into a lamer(?). I don't think any laws do or should oppose that.

You find cheat codes of games at literally hundreds of sites on the internet, even the official game sites. Do you still want to say cheat codes are illegal?

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[honeybee]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
NoteMe - you'd find such a cheat could be made by developing an app that sits in your system tray. It would be "watch" the active window for certain items, like a monster etc and then move the mouse and execute a click event or whatever. Technically, the executables/binaries are not being modified. How it would do that is a technical matter I shan't go into here.

BrianS has pointed out that it is against the rules of the game, which no doubt every player must accept when joining.

So I don't think it's illegal in a legal sense, but it is cheating in terms of the game.

Certainly immoral imo even if the rules didn't state that and as far as recruiting help from VBForums - I've made my case and I guess the jury is out on that one.

Now that you mention a separate app being written, I remember again for Diablo II there was an app that could "imbue" any item in your inventory, which would give tremendous powers when using that item. I guess you are right about this sort of cheating. And I think this sort of a thing could probably qualify as a crack and not a cheat. The same goes for my earlier example of editing the saved games.

If you are talking about multiplayer games where you want to prevent the use of cheat codes, or cases where the game developers have specifically put up notices saying all cheats should be reported to them and not be used, using cheats may be illegal. However with most single-player games it's not the case.

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[Foxer]

I see now - there are two types of cheats.

There are the cheat codes that developers program into the game in the hopes (or not) that they are never discovered. Things like "Jump, Jump, Dodge, Shoot, Jump" will give you unlimited lives. These are the sort of cheats you see on PS2, XBOX, Nintendo etc. No file is altered.

There is another sort of cheat, which is what I immediately thought, that alters the game you play. These are things like aimbots, transparent wall hacks, graphic exploitations and things of the like. These were never programmed into the game and are only "developed" by hackers/crackers who reverse engineer (term used lightly) the binary and find ways to alter the binary. These are for games like Quake and first-person-shooters and are generally on PC's. I could be wrong, but I believe these types of cheats alter the binaries on one's hard drive.

Cracks are different again. They also alter binaries but only to circumvent licenses, cd-keys etc.

So - what was the question?

[/End hackers guide]

[honeybee]

Originally posted by MartinLiss
Maybe that is a valid definition of a cheat, but I don't thjink it's the only one, and it doesn't apply to what the user in the thread I referred to wants to do.

I think that's the only definition of cheats, and anything else added later by way of separate apps or editing any game files (read my notes about Diablo II) should amount to cracks. Also legally speaking you could exclude those cheats from the cheats category which the developers have expressly prohibited in single or multiplayer versions of games. However by nature cheats are part of the game, written by the developers, and legally usable if not otherwise stated.

I do agree with you, on second reading of the said thread, I think the guy is upto something fishy. It looks like he wants to write a cheating app for an existing game. Maybe we should just grill him for more details before we judge

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[TheGuru]

Originally posted by Gary Campbell
I see now - there are two types of cheats.

There are the cheat codes that developers program into the game in the hopes (or not) that they are never discovered. Things like "Jump, Jump, Dodge, Shoot, Jump" will give you unlimited lives. These are the sort of cheats you see on PS2, XBOX, Nintendo etc. No file is altered.

There is another sort of cheat, which is what I immediately thought, that alters the game you play. These are things like aimbots, transparent wall hacks, graphic exploitations and things of the like. These were never programmed into the game and are only "developed" by hackers/crackers who reverse engineer (term used lightly) the binary and find ways to alter the binary. These are for games like Quake and first-person-shooters and are generally on PC's. I could be wrong, but I believe these types of cheats alter the binaries on one's hard drive.

Cracks are different again. They also alter binaries but only to circumvent licenses, cd-keys etc.

So - what was the question?

[/End hackers guide]

well games like quake have the ability to be modded. You can create maps, skins, and other little add-ins for quake (including cheats).

[honeybee]

Originally posted by TheGuru
well games like quake have the ability to be modded. You can create maps, skins, and other little add-ins for quake (including cheats).

And Max Payne and Duke Nukem 3D !!

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[brad jones]

Most of the things that were being asked in the original thread are harmless in themselves. They are also valuable for other programming features. Items such as --

getting mouse coordinates
evaluating pixel color
parsing HTML
etc.

As such, I see no harm in talking about how to do all of those items.



Cracks/Hacks/reverse engineering, and similar tasks are all a bit out of bounds and are not something we should help someone do on any program that they didn't write and own.

Cheats as described in this thread as simple 'tricks in a game' are fine to discuss and don't require anyone to do anything.

If someone is talking about creating a program that interacts with a game, I don't see the harm in that either -- PROVIDED it doesn't violate any of the licensing for the game. I'm sure any online games would prohibit such a program.


Having said all this, I've not really given a definitive answer. It comes down to the stated intent of the person asking the questions and to the licensing of the programs that are being used or interacted with.

Brad!

[BrianS]

Intent was already given. He clearly stated he wanted to use this to Cheat.

The Game he wants to cheat on has a EULA that states they will not use any outside program for the purpose of cheating, which I posted above.

I can't believe you guys actually support making cheats for games, especially multiplayer games. Single Player I can see since all you are doing is cheating yourself. But when it comes to others and fairness, don't you have any morals?