Uneducated Patriots: Death to America

[Skitchen8]

First of all before I even post this I ask that you please to try respond with either an intelligent reflection of the topic I am presenting or an intelligent and informative criticism of my writing. I do not care if you have different views than me, I do not care if you think that I am a moron for the way that I think of things, I care about improving my writing and having a well thought out discussion with intelligent people. My views are very leftist, and will continue to be that way and I have no problem with you disagreeing with them. However if you do disagree please post facts, I do my best to research my articles before they are written and I would ask of you to do the same. Saying that, although not the topic at hand this time, bush is really a good president and I am a moron gets nobody anywhere. Saying that bush has given xx dollars to yyyyyyy in order to help the ______ians with the ability to prove it if necessary is quite a measure better. This article is also very short and was written in about 15 minutes because I was bored so please excuse (but kindly point out) any grammatical or spelling errors. With that said:

Some of you may know that I am very outspoken on my political views which perhaps is a strange sort of thing for a 16 year old two years shy of even being able to vote. I am often criticised for my leftist views and my outright paranoia. Many people do not appreciate the words I write, the words which I hold very dearly to my heart, that are simply an attempt to better the lives of some people. This is excusable though, people naturally resist views different from their own and not many people hold my beliefs at all. However when somebody tells me that my opinions are unpatriotic I take it as a very personal insult from a very uneducated person.

More than 200 years ago people fought for the very freedoms that people criticise me, and many other students, for using. The recently published Soapbox magazine/newspaper (the newspaper this article will be published in) recieved a lot of flak from a lot of teachers because of its clearly expressed views, views that were expressed without editing to make it acceptable for the average 3 year old. The truth is I cannot go into a movie theater and yell fire no more than I can call in a bomb threat to my own school simply because they are considered to present a clear and present danger to society. This means that they are not, and can not be protected under free speech. However the last time that the word **** caused any possible danger to anyone is not recorded in the history books and is not known to me nor anyone I know.

That however is not the point of me writing this article, my intended point was another part of free speech which seems to only apply to fascists. As Corey Taylor (from the band Stone Sour) wrote in his poem Omega, "Huh, what luck. Fascism you can vote for." Me saying that George Bush is a moron and should be removed from office by any means necessary is expressing my right to free speech in the way that the right was meant to be expressed.

Let me take you, my readers, half a world away into the country we know as China. In 1989 a most tragic even happened, an event which is now called the Tiananmen Square Massacre. An estimated 5,000 citizens of China were massacred by their own military simply for expressing views that were different than those of the current ruling party. They, as did many Americans during the Revolutionary War, died to have the freedom of speech and the freedom to criticize their government when they see corruption or other problems. This right is one of the fundamentals of democracy, the fact that each citizen be it a man or a woman, white or black, poor or rich has the same say in the government as anybody else. Now given that fact I would say that me saying the government needs a complete overhaul and is not running as efficiently as it should is one of the single most patriotic things I can possibly do.

Perhaps I have been wrong in my views in many occasions. Perhaps my views have been so far out in left field that they are extremely difficult to understand. Perhaps the government is not as corrupt as I sometimes say it is. Perhaps the blasphemous words I spew out of my mouth are really just that however at no point in time should anybody call me unpatriotic for doing what I believe is my patriotic duty.

[mendhak]

First, you had three spelling mistakes: criticized, criticize and received. Better? Not bad.

Second, you spend more time "apologizing" for what your views are. If you have something to say, say it. You can put in a disclaimer of your views if you like, but make it short and simple. I've noticed that your apologies and disclaimers are longer than the article itself. What's the point of that? If you explain your views or yourself, how do you expect to get your point across?

Third, you need to add to your main content here. You start off quite strong, talking about free speech, but the article just ends. Add a few more points to support your view (if possible), and summarize the whole damn thing.


Does that help?

[Memnoch1207]

the words which I hold very dearly to my heart,

Should be:
"the words which I hold very dear to my heart,

However when somebody tells me that my opinions are unpatriotic I take it as a very personal insult from a very uneducated person.

This wouldn't have any reflection on an individuals intelligence or education. It would just be a matter of opinion

recieved

Should be:
received

Me saying that George Bush is a moron and should be removed from office by any means necessary is expressing my right to free speech in the way that the right was meant to be expressed.

This is very true. As the Dixie Chicks, Natalie Maines specifically found out. Just because you have the right to state your opinion does not in anyway protect you from whatever reprecussions may come as a result of your opinion. If you speak out publicly, you can often find yourself publicly humiliated, attacked, disgraced, etc...

You have every right to go to Harlem, New York and yell the word "Nigger", but just because you have that right, doesn't protect you from the consequences of your actions.

The difference between 1989 China and the U.S. is they didn't have the right to free speech under their current government. It was a communistic government, which prohibited any attacks, verbal or otherwise, on the government. So it really isn't a good comparison. We, the U.S, a democracy, have the right to free speech, but China, a communistic state, at that time did not.

I wouldn't say verbally attacking the government is in any patriotic. You have a patriotic duty to defend your country and the freedoms it gives you.

Patriot(ism) by definition is one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests. So your verbal attacks or slanderous opinion of the government is not in any way, a form of patriotism.

You have the right to say what you want about the government, but I feel you are confused as to what patriotism truly is.

Exercising your rights as a citizen isn't patriotism.

[Acidic]

Originally posted by mendhak
... you need to add to your main content here. You start off quite strong, talking about free speech, but the article just ends. Add a few more points to support your view (if possible), and summarize the whole damn thing.

I thought exactly the same thing

[The Hobo]

The article seems more of "waaah, stop making fun of me" than educating about free speech. You have a lot of good points that aren't expanded on or brought up well, and get a bit crushed with the apologetic tone set in the beginning of the article.

If you want to make an impact on your readers, you have to have a strong voice, and the first paragraph really weakens that voice. It would probably be better if you rearranged it so that the first paragraph was at the end of the paper.

Just rambling. Hope some (or any) of this helps.

[NotLKH]

Not that I'm defending china for Tiananmin Square, but I, along with many here, had the TV on when it happened.

First of all, I'm not doubting you, but I do question the "5000" count you have listed as how many died. In Tianmen Square.

Secondly, They might have been "protesting" over freedom of speech, and specifically, that is one helluva thing to stand up for, my hat off to them, but they were {from my understanding} a bunch of stupid, pie in the sky, heads up their ***, students, who had no idea what they were going up against. I was sickened that day from the tanks driven by those who equaled the age of they whom they drove over. Heck, they were more than likely kindergarten classmates, with crushes on each other. Grrrrr! THATS WHERE WE NEEDED TO GO!!!!

But, NOOOOO!!!!

Anyways, That day, for some reason, hits me harder than any 9/11 kinda experience ever could.

And, wether it was 5000, or 500, it was a Gov't mowing down its own people.

Don't worry, Skitch,

I won't stand around and let that happen to you.
Even though I disagree with most of what you tilt at,
I will die for you.

-Lou

[mendhak]

Originally posted by NotLKH

I won't stand around and let that happen to you.
Even though I disagree with most of what you tilt at,
I will die for you.

I've seen people say this before, that "I may not agree with what you say, I will defend to death your right to say it," but would you really do that? Most of us aren't so altruistic that we'd give up our lives for another person just like that. Hey, I may never know if I'd do that, unless the time comes.

But sitting here in the comfort of my home and being concerned mostly about my job and the projects involved (meaning "other concerns"), that's what I think. Tell me I'm wrong!

[cid]

First off your point of view is not very patriotic at all as Memnoch1207 pointed out.

Second, yelling fire in a crowded theatre is a threat to societry. People have been trampled to death over that kind of junk.

Third, they(chinese) were standing up for free speach...unlike America which already has that right.

Fourth, free speech is a gift not to be abused to get attention in a school news paper.

fifth, you have lost all credibility with me because in a previous post you described "tripping on e"

sixth, drugs are the deccay of society...not black people or other minorities.

seventh, bush needs to be out of office(I dont want to explain...if you want my view on this matter make a new thread and i will write you pages.)

eighth, You will never see a president in office that is not republican or democrat.

ninth, I would take a republican over a democrat any day.

tenth, you are only sixteen and your views will not be appreciated for another two years.

eleventh, the school ownes that news paper so they reserve the right to censor all they want...just like an admin can censor here.

twelth, you throw your rights in the trash everymorning when you walk into the school doors. Or for that matter even step on school grounds.

[davebat]

Originally posted by cid
sixth, drugs are the deccay of society...not black people or other minorities.

Please elaborate.

[HardCode]

Originally posted by Skitchen8
First of all before I even post this I ask that you please to try respond with either an intelligent reflection of the topic I am presenting or an intelligent and informative criticism of my writing. I do not care if you have different views than me, I do not care if you think that I am a moron for the way that I think of things, I care about improving my writing and having a well thought out discussion with intelligent people. My views are very leftist, and will continue to be that way and I have no problem with you disagreeing with them. However if you do disagree please post facts, I do my best to research my articles before they are written and I would ask of you to do the same. Saying that, although not the topic at hand this time, bush is really a good president and I am a moron gets nobody anywhere. Saying that bush has given xx dollars to yyyyyyy in order to help the ______ians with the ability to prove it if necessary is quite a measure better. This article is also very short and was written in about 15 minutes because I was bored so please excuse (but kindly point out) any grammatical or spelling errors. With that said:

Right here, you are asking that we relinquish our freedom of speech by asking us to reply to this thread in a way acceptable to you.

Originally posted by Skitchen8
... However when somebody tells me that my opinions are unpatriotic I take it as a very personal insult from a very uneducated person.

But we have the freedom of speech to reply any way that we desire, correct? So then you shouldn't take this as an insult, but rather as a blessing because we have the freedom of speech to call you whatever.

Originally posted by Skitchen8
More than 200 years ago people fought for the very freedoms that people criticise me, ...

Actually, they revolted against England because of taxation without representation (i.e. money)

Originally posted by Skitchen8
Perhaps I have been wrong in my views in many occasions. Perhaps my views have been so far out in left field that they are extremely difficult to understand. Perhaps the government is not as corrupt as I sometimes say it is. Perhaps the blasphemous words I spew out of my mouth are really just that however at no point in time should anybody call me unpatriotic for doing what I believe is my patriotic duty.

Really, and don't take offense because I don't mean this faceciously (sp?), but you in no way cannot have an experienced opinion of things until you finish school, leave your parents house and live on your own, and become an independent man. I am over twice your age, so I know what I am talking about. You lack so many life experiences that at 16 you really cannot fully understand many of the things in life. Unless you are a prodigy, you probably spend 1% of your day in politics. The other time is chasing girls, hanging with friends, etc like a normal 16 year old. There is so much more to it that you will come to see in the future. Just remember that it is okay to change your views in the future to what makes sense, and not what others force on you.

[The Hobo]

I know this really doesn't have much to do with the subject, but Michael Moore (I don't like the guy, btw) came to our town and gave a speech or something, and outside of the building, there was a large group of people protesting him giving the speech.

Now that was just the most ironic thing I've ever seen.

They're exercising their first amendment right of protest to try to stop him from exercising his first amendment right of free speech.

One of the funniest things I've ever seen.

[Michael_Kamen]

Free speech is rubbish.
Most people are waay to dumb for it...

[Memnoch1207]

And free speech isn't really free at all...It comes at a price.

[Michael_Kamen]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
And free speech isn't really free at all...It comes at a price.

It comes with the price of control..

That's the dilemma of free speech. Without control it turns into chaos...

[Memnoch1207]

It also comes with the cost of possible repercussions, if what was said offended, insulted, etc... others.

The Dixie Chicks learned first hand the cost of Free Speech, when radio stations across the country refused to play their music and groups started destroying their cds. It cost them plenty (lost revenue, public humiliation, constant attacks against questioning their patriotism, etc..)

[Cander]

Originally posted by The Hobo
I know this really doesn't have much to do with the subject, but Michael Moore (I don't like the guy, btw) came to our town and gave a speech or something, and outside of the building, there was a large group of people protesting him giving the speech.

Now that was just the most ironic thing I've ever seen.

They're exercising their first amendment right of protest to try to stop him from exercising his first amendment right of free speech.

One of the funniest things I've ever seen.

Well that would be considered a couter protest. Not necessarily trying to shut him up, just trying to make people aware of what they believe is twisted views or lies, or whatever.

Not much different then me telling you to STFU.

lol

[mendhak]

Perhaps we're taking the phrase "free speech" a little too literally and in a very pedantic way.

Of course, it could be redefined, but then who decides? And that, paradoxically, defeats the entire purpose of having it in the first place. And even if decided, those would be treated as rules.


I don't have a point. I just had to say that though.

[Foxer]

I think many missed the point of Skitchen's post. Many made a personal attack on him that he feels was unwaranted, particularly when he was attacking the government or president (in a previous post), not individuals.

I guess he was looking for a debate, not a flamefest. I guess his extreme views provoked extreme emotions.

Irionically, in this post, his expressions are far more subdued, and he's been told to toughen up his writing.

Balance is everything.

[Arc]

I think the fact that skitchen is 16 is reason enough to explain his ignorance.

Skitchen, you have every right to voice your opinion as long as the people who allow you to voice your opinion (in this case VBWire) allow you to do so. However, you are correct that you are paranoid and slanted in your views. If you get off on bad mouthing you government then more power to you. That's fine with me God knows I did a lot of it when that communist/low life named Billed Clinton was in office.

[cid]

Originally posted by Arc
I think the fact that skitchen is 16 is reason enough to explain his ignorance.

Skitchen, you have every right to voice your opinion as long as the people who allow you to voice your opinion (in this case VBWire) allow you to do so. However, you are correct that you are paranoid and slanted in your views. If you get off on bad mouthing you government then more power to you. That's fine with me God knows I did a lot of it when that communist/low life named Billed Clinton was in office.

Wow...That was the dumbest thing i have ever heard. Basically you just called skitchin dumb yet your post was terribly thrown together. And why did you hate Clinton...All I know is he gave jobs and raised the economy. But who would want that. Yeah lets keep Bush in office and start WW3 next time instead of bombing the "AL Quida"(innocent".

Arc when you post to make fun of someone for their age make sure that your post are put together better than the person being flamed.

[mendhak]

So let's add another point there:

Don't reveal your age when giving your views on something over the Internet. People are prejudiced and will ignore the entire post because of the mention of the person's age.

It's kinda like you explain all the great aspects of Unix to a person, and at the end they say "Yeah, but Unix doesn't have Spider Solitaire."

[Michael_Kamen]

Unix doesn't have Spider Solitaire?

[Wally Pipp]

Skitchen, one word of advice : give your opinion when and where you deem necessary and never apologise for having an opinion.

And also weed out idiotic opinionated claptrap (in casu Arc's post here), rants and plain bullshït and keep the genuine arguments, comments, criticism and views. And learn from the latter.

Keep in mind : Background, culture, education and worldviews are no guarantee that the person in question isn't a pompous little troublemaker.

[Shawn N]

Originally posted by cid
And why did you hate Clinton...All I know is he gave jobs and raised the economy.

Yes, Clinton was the best president in the history of presidents. Don't forget he also threw billions into Haiti, signed NATO, and occupied Bosnia.

P.S. Justin Timberlake ROCKS!

[Memnoch1207]

I agree with Wally on this as well. If you have an opinion stand by it and don't apologize for having it. You are entitled to it and if others don't respect you for it then, who cares.

I don't agree with some of the things you have said, but I do agree you have the right to feel the way you do and carry the opinion that you have.

I also agree with the fact that you being only 16, limits your worldly experience and therefore limits your knowledge as to the overall view of the world and how it works.

I took a sociology class last summer (I was bored), and most of the people in it were about 18-20 years old. They were talking about how horrible Bush was and how the war in Iraq was unnecessary and all we were doing was attacking a weak country.
Well, I am a former army soldier and I served 9 months in Iraq during the first Gulf War, while my fellow students in the class were still in elementary school. I shared with them some of my experience while in Iraq and Saudi Arabia. I explained to them somethings that they didn't understand or even realize, such as the fact the first gulf war ended in a cease fire, which meant that if the UN's resolutions were not met, then aggressions could resume. There were alot of things the students weren't aware of about the first gulf war.

So my suggestion to you is, the same thing I told them. It is okay to have an opinion, even an unpopular opinion, but just make sure that your opinion isn't based on unfounded or incomplete information, and most of all make sure your opinion is YOURS and not handed down from someone else, such as your parents, siblings, teachers or friends.

[Arc]

Originally posted by cid
Wow...That was the dumbest thing i have ever heard. Basically you just called skitchin dumb yet your post was terribly thrown together. And why did you hate Clinton...All I know is he gave jobs and raised the economy. But who would want that. Yeah lets keep Bush in office and start WW3 next time instead of bombing the "AL Quida"(innocent".

Arc when you post to make fun of someone for their age make sure that your post are put together better than the person being flamed.

I didn't call him dumb I called him ignorant. I mean how can you take anyone seriously that says things like "We all know Bush is the worst thing to happen to this country since Pearl Harbour"? Also, I wasn't making fun of him for his age, I merely said his age explains his ignorance. In other words I thought he was ignorant BEFORE I knew his age. As Memnoch pointed out, kids are ignorant of the facts (simply because they haven't been aroud long enough) and usually base their opinions on hearsay and popular opinion rather than facts. But this goes for adults as well.

As far as how well my post was put together, I wasn't attempting to write a "news" article or final thesis. And that aside I really see nothing wrong with my other post aside from a couple of typos...

Why did I hate Bill Clinton? Well I didn't really care for him selling American nuclear bomb secrets to the Chinese and I didn't care for his Liberal policies regarding bigger government and I especially didn't care for the way he made a joke out of the Presidential office, just to name a few.

[cid]

When you say he made a joke of the preidential office...you mean about monica? Hey dont start with that crap. We have all had "sexual intercourse" so why should BIll's be different. I dont like the guy personally. But if he is getting his knobb slobbed by monica that is his business...not the medias.

[Cander]

Originally posted by cid
When you say he made a joke of the preidential office...you mean about monica? Hey dont start with that crap. We have all had "sexual intercourse" so why should BIll's be different. I dont like the guy personally. But if he is getting his knobb slobbed by monica that is his business...not the medias.

Adultery?
Lied under oath about it? Purgery?

[Memnoch1207]

Originally posted by cid
When you say he made a joke of the preidential office...you mean about monica? Hey dont start with that crap. We have all had "sexual intercourse" so why should BIll's be different. I dont like the guy personally. But if he is getting his knobb slobbed by monica that is his business...not the medias.

People in positions of power are held to a higher standard.

The behavior of individuals in high profile offices are expected to behave in a socially acceptable manner. Adultery, as rampant as it may be, is still not considered socially acceptable.

The county sheriff where I live was arrested about 2 months ago for Drinking and Driving and Running a red light. He recieved probation and resigned from his position, due to public outrage at what he did.

[TheVader]

Originally posted by Arc
I didn't call him dumb I called him ignorant. I mean how can you take anyone seriously that says things like "We all know Bush is the worst thing to happen to this country since Pearl Harbour"? Also, I wasn't making fun of him for his age, I merely said his age explains his ignorance. In other words I thought he was ignorant BEFORE I knew his age. As Memnoch pointed out, kids are ignorant of the facts (simply because they haven't been aroud long enough) and usually base their opinions on hearsay and popular opinion rather than facts. But this goes for adults as well.

You shouldn't judge people by their age. A sixteen-year old can - and probably will - have a much less influenced opinion about politics than older folks. The credibility of his expressed opinion depends much more on his knowledge of the subject; how much research he's done for example. That's the reason why students are often criticizing the government - they are taught not to trust everything they hear or read and to do research.
Older or less educated people are often more 'blurred' in their opinion because of the (often distorted) news they receive and believe from the media.

[Memnoch1207]

I would seriously have to disagree. Most teens views and opinions are based on or strongly influenced by one of the following.

A) their parents opinions or views
B) their brothers or sisters opinions or views
C) their teachers opinions or views
D) their friends opinions or views

Few teens, let alone most adults develop their opinions based on fact, research and knowledge. Their opinions are usually learned from others.

[Shawn N]

Originally posted by TheVader
You shouldn't judge people by their age. A sixteen-year old can - and probably will - have a much less influenced opinion about politics than older folks. The credibility of his expressed opinion depends much more on his knowledge of the subject; how much research he's done for example. That's the reason why students are often criticizing the government - they are taught not to trust everything they hear or read and to do research.
Older or less educated people are often more 'blurred' in their opinion because of the (often distorted) news they receive and believe from the media.

So you're essentially saying that a 16 year old has a more credible political opinion than saaaaay...a 30 or 40 year old? You've gotta be joking.

[TheVader]

Originally posted by Shawn N
So you're essentially saying that a 16 year old has a more credible political opinion than saaaaay...a 30 or 40 year old? You've gotta be joking.

Not by default, cause as said it depends a lot on education. But it's a real possibility, yes. (though I must admit that 16 may be a little young, make it 18...)

Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't judge someone by his age, because a (much) younger person may understand much more of politics than an older one.

[Shawn N]

I'll disagree, but I won't provide any arguments. I'm not going to derail the thread.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by TheVader
You shouldn't judge people by their age. A sixteen-year old can - and probably will - have a much less influenced opinion about politics than older folks.

You just shot yourself in the foot man. There is a reason older people have an influenced opinion. The reason is they've been there done that seen what happens and have earned their opinion. Personally I have experienced presidents since Gerald Ford was around. I have earned the right to have an opinion on US politics. A 16 year old kid who was playing with leggos and tinker toys during the last real war the US fought does not have the right. Now on to my earned, influenced opinion. All politicans are morons. None of them could run a country out of a wet paper bag. Vote for yourself as a write in.

[Shawn N]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
You just shot yourself in the foot man. There is a reason older people have an influenced opinion. The reason is they've been there done that seen what happens and have earned their opinion.

Pretty much what I wanted to say.

[Shawn N]

Originally posted by cid
Arc when you post to make fun of someone for their age make sure that your post are put together better than the person being flamed.

Am I the only one that finds something humorous about this post?

[Memnoch1207]

Originally posted by Spetnik
What is I don't difference do you see his writing on his age is a flame for not getting put together?

*** did you just say???

[Shawn N]

Originally posted by Spetnik
What is I don't difference do you see his writing on his age is a flame for not getting put together?

Actually, I was referring to this.