A Reminder Concerning VBForum’s Acceptable Use Policy

**brad jones** · Sep 24th, 2003, 04:30 PM

It has been noted that several member have been violating the AUP by including ads in their signatures and/or their “title”.

The pertinent portion of the AUP states that “You will not post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations, all of which are inappropriate and prohibited in the Forums."

The AUP also mentions that "You will not, furthermore, collect personal information about forum members for the purpose of sending them any such advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations through other means (email, messaging programs, etc.)."

What this means is that while it is OK to have in your signature a link to a website that you personally own or operate, it is not OK to post links to, or advertisements for, competing websites or vendors that are not authorized by the management of Jupitermedia.

We ask that all members remove any such links or advertisements. Your cooperation in this is appreciated.

Should you have questions concerning your signature or title, please send a PM to any moderator or administrator.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Acceptable Usage Policy

**NotLKH** · Sep 24th, 2003, 05:41 PM

Just wondering what you mean when you refer to "title"?

And would whats in my sig be representative of whats unacceptable?

-Lou

**techgnome** · Sep 24th, 2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by brad jones
What this means is that while it is OK to have in your signature a link to a website that you personally own or operate, it is not OK to post links to, or advertisements for, competing websites or vendors that are not authorized by the management of Jupitermedia.

......so, if we find the answer to someone's post, or a resource on another site, we can't post the link to it? .... ???? That's the way I interpret this.....

**MartinLiss** · Sep 25th, 2003, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by techgnome
......so, if we find the answer to someone's post, or a resource on another site, we can't post the link to it? .... ???? That's the way I interpret this.....

We are talking about what is in people's signatures and not what is in the answers to questions. If your answer to a question legitimately points to a post on another website that's OK.

Unless you own or operate DeveloperKB.com you should remove the links from your signature.

**NotLKH** · Sep 25th, 2003, 06:55 AM

So, links to entertainment/political talk show comentator websites are ok, and not considered competition?

And, again, what does "title" refer to, as in the following statement?

"by including ads in their signatures and/or their “title""

Is that the title of their thread? Or does it have something to do with status/location?

-Lou

**MartinLiss** · Sep 25th, 2003, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by NotLKH
So, links to entertainment/political talk show comentator websites are ok, and not considered competition?

And, again, what does "title" refer to, as in the following statement?

"by including ads in their signatures and/or their “title""

Is that the title of their thread? Or does it have something to do with status/location?

-Lou

"Title" in you case refers to "Frenzied Member" which is of course OK since you can't change it. As you are probably aware, people who have more than 4096 posts can choose their own title and some have been taking advantage of that privilege. I've asked Brad to comment on your signature.

**techgnome** · Sep 25th, 2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by MartinLiss
We are talking about what is in people's signatures and not what is in the answers to questions. If your answer to a question legitimately points to a post on another website that's OK.

Unless you own or operate DeveloperKB.com you should remove the links from your signature.

Ok, now it makes sense, and now that I have read the post again for the fourth time, I see now that it is in discussion of sigs.

And for the record, yes, I do run DeveloperKB.com.

**brad jones** · Sep 25th, 2003, 08:27 AM

Items like the DeveloperKB banner in the signature is an obvious a violation of the AUP.

The entertainment items I'm not sure about. I'm getting clarification on those and will let NotLKH and everyone know when I have the clarification. Sorry for the delay on responding, I had hoped to have an answer sooner rather than later.

**Radames** · Sep 25th, 2003, 09:11 AM

Do 'Competing Sites' include galahtech?

**brad jones** · Sep 25th, 2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Radames
Do 'Competing Sites' include galahtech?

Competing sites include any site that is not owned by Jupitermedia that covers similar topics to Jupitermedia's sites. So, yes, Galahtech is a violation.

Brad

**Wokawidget** · Sep 25th, 2003, 10:25 AM

I kind of understand why JupiterMedia has these rules. But to be fair over the past 6 months VBF has lost a lot of good developers to Galah and other VB forums due to the adverts that pop-up.
My home PC blocks these adverts so it doesn't really bother me.
Isn't this a teeny-weeny bit hypacritical of JupiterMedia?
It's OK for me to be bomb-barded with pointless MS, and other, adverts, but for a user to have a link is forbidden...Hmmmmmm *scratches head*

In fact some of the adverts are also blocked my my works firewall, and replaces the advert area with a Novell Board Manager "Status 303: Forbidden" page...this means that my web logs are full of me trying to access forbidden sites...and yes, it has been mentioned at work.

I have nothing to advertise, apart from my God like status, but isn't banning people from having adverts in their sigs just gonna piss users off even more? Can VBF afford to lose some of it's top developers? Many of whom do have links in their sigs.

Last year I had links to a comedy style site which was in the style of Brass Eye, a sureal satire program, and was aimed at taking the mick out ouf the media, and was not poking fun at the war in Afghanistan. I was asked to remove these links, but refused and gave my justification of having them. It annoyed me slightly, but since I don't hold grudges and for the fact I change my sig often it was water off a ducks back. Other users may not see it in that light.

Now and again I have links to BBC News web stories that I, and others, find amusing...would these be "illegal" links? It could be seen as advertising the BBC...

Who/what is JupiterMedia, and who is the top dog?

U say posting links to other VB sites, in threads is OK, if it helps any of the users in the thread. So by this, posting a link to Galah is perfectly acceptable...now what if every post I made I added to the bottom:

By the way, I have seen a solution to your problem at galah...here's the link www.MainWebPage.net

By your rules, this is OK...but to have it in my sig is not...

Personally I feel this is gonna really cheese some regular users off. It's a very grey area

Well, there's my 2 cents worth...

Ranting Woka

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Radames
Do 'Competing Sites' include galahtech?

If you call GalahTech a competing site, you'd be right. They compete with everyone. If you have a site similar to theirs and both sites have common users, they don't like you. Don't even think about having someone that mods their site mod your site either because they'll threaten the person making them choose between sites. GalahTech seemed like a good site at first but once TechGnome and I setup our own site and we began to share common users, GalahTech became very defensive towards us. We made the mistake of asking someone to be a mod for our site, that was also a mod for GalahTech, and this user was forced to choose between sites. What a crock? I use VBF and my site only from now on. Laters, Jeremy

**techgnome** · Sep 25th, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by MartinLiss
We are talking about what is in people's signatures and not what is in the answers to questions. If your answer to a question legitimately points to a post on another website that's OK.

Unless you own or operate DeveloperKB.com you should remove the links from your signature.

Originally posted by brad jones
Items like the DeveloperKB banner in the signature is an obvious a violation of the AUP.

There seems to be a discrepancy here....

**Wokawidget** · Sep 25th, 2003, 10:56 AM

...also, how can you prove, or disprove, that a user runs the site they advertise in their sig???

For me to advertise Galah is wrong, but for someone who runs Galah this is OK? Is it just me, or is that just silly?

By the way galah is being plugged left right and center here

Maybe we should ban this thread...hahahaha

I believe, so believe is the wrong word. From the facts I have been presented with (

), I can see how advertising certain sites my be wrong. Lets go to an extreme, porn sites are unacceptable for example...but where do you draw the line?

By the way I am neutral, I am looking at this situation from both sides.

Woka

**brad jones** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by techgnome
There seems to be a discrepancy here....

It is a matter of referring and linking to your site versus advertising your site. Yes, this is a gray area, but a banner ad in your signature makes it more black. As owner of Developerkb, it would be acceptable to have a signature like mine with DeveloperKB mentioned and even linked:

Techgnome
Owner, DeveloperkB (Home of the Developer Knowledge Base)
--- other sig stuff....

To put a banner graphic for your site in your signature for the site is advertising, not doing a signature. Banner ads/graphics to other non-jupitermedia sites are not allowed even if you are the owner. Links will be overlooked if they are reasonable.

Does that help clear it up?

**techgnome** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by brad jones
The entertainment items I'm not sure about. I'm getting clarification on those and will let NotLKH and everyone know when I have the clarification. Sorry for the delay on responding, I had hoped to have an answer sooner rather than later.

A 100% strict reading of the AUP results in me believing that no links would be allowed peiod.

You will not post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations, all of which are inappropriate and prohibited in the Forums. You will not, furthermore, collect personal information about forum members for the purpose of sending them any such advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations through other means (email, messaging programs, etc.).

No mention of sigs specifically or implied.

I'm curoius to see how this "entertainment links" ruling comes back.... since with a strict reading it would seem to preclude it....

I don't understand.... you know what... I don't care any more... I'm done fighting the system.... forget it, it's not worht it anymore.

Adios.
TG

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:04 AM

Woka,
I don't choose to "plug" them but if anyone deserves it, they do. They started their site and have done nothing but bad mouth other sites, including this one. Why would anyone want to associate themselves with a site that can't get along with other sites? I sure don't and that's why I don't go there anymore. You've joined our site, although you haven't been there in awhile, and we don't say "stay away from GalahTech and VBF or else" like GalahTech does. There is a great developer that is a member of VBF, DKB and GT and I asked this person to be a mod, as he knows his stuff very well. He says okay and a month later, he has to resign because GT found out and made him choose. GT seems to have a problem with all other sites than themselves and it's dumb. Developers need sites to get help, not get penalized by politicians trying to run a website. Laters, Jeremy

Katuil · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:07 AM

Hmmm..........

This sound crazy people! Is vbforums.com here to help developers or tell them how and what they should do? If it's the later, then it will be later for me and I will not use your site or recommend it as I have in the past. You look at this many ways. If I have in my POST, SIGNATURE,, or any other method a link to another site, then whats the big deal. If I do that here, then I most likely am doing that same thing on the other site! It's the old scratch my back thing, it you get what I saying! I have a B.S. in Physics, and trust me in Physics you don't just use one reference manual! You use everyone one you can find!

So, let it go or you can start losing members and developers who post here. They will most likely go elsewhere.

If this makes vbforums.com upset then deal with it and I will go elsewhere.

By the way, I also am a member of DeveloperKB.com. I also memberships on atleast twenty other sites that are similar and even tell other members on those site about the other sites. Not all the answers are in one place.

As Mr. Spock said in Star Trek 6, 'The universe will unfold as it should'.

**brad jones** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:17 AM

Wokawidget -

You bring up a lot of issues. First let me say that we don't do pop-up ads. Jupitermedia has been against pop-up ads. Rarely, we will do a one-time pop-up survey, but that is very rare and once you say 'yes' or 'no', a cookie is written and you should never see it again. The ads that are displayed on the site are pulled from an ad server, however, they are a part of the pages.

It's OK for me to be bomb-barded with pointless MS, and other, adverts, but for a user to have a link is forbidden...Hmmmmmm *scratches head*

Again, our ads are within the pages. No pop-ups, no ads constantly moving locations. For the most part, they are similar to those in many other serious sites.

Additionally, Jupitermedia does advertisements on the site to pay for the cost of running the site. Jupitermedia is a company and like most companies works to make a profit. (JUPM is the stock symbol if you care to be an owner or care to see how the company is doing).

I don't think that the local KMart store is going to let the Target and Walmart stores post their ads on the shelves in the KMart store. I don't think that Target or Walmart would expect to be allowed to post such ads within KMart. While we are not these stores, I believe the analogy applies.

Brad

**brad jones** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:23 AM

This sound crazy people! Is vbforums.com here to help developers or tell them how and what they should do?

VBForums is here for Q&A and interaction. As such, it should be no big deal for people to follow the AUP, which does not get in the way of allowing people to do this.

If it's the later, then it will be later for me and I will not use your site or recommend it as I have in the past.

We don't tell people what to do beyond asking them to follow the Acceptable Usage Policy-- something that nearly all sites have.

You look at this many ways. If I have in my POST, SIGNATURE,, or any other method a link to another site, then whats the big deal.

There is no big deal in referencing or linking to another site if it answers a specific, appropriate, technical question.

We are only asking that the AUP be followed. This doesn't impact the overall way this site operates. It also doesn't impact 98% of the people using this forum -- other than the fact that a number of sigs will probably end up shorter, so there will be less scrolling

**Wokawidget** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:29 AM

OK, I agree with your analogy.
Pop-up adds was miss interpreted...I retract that comment.

From what I have read in this thread I have come to the conclusion it is perfectly OK to do the following:

You can find the solution at:
www.WokasVBWebSiteBetterThanVBF.com

But to have this is my sig it's not...?

That link is just as bad, if not worse that a picture with a link behind it as the user can see exactly what the site is and may remember the link they have seen. How about a picture with just text on it? Does that make the graphic OK?

I feel that what ever action you mods take you are going to get grief from it, either from users of your peers. Catch 22

You are going to have a very hard time enforcing this as it's a fine line between following the rules and annoying users.

Damn, got a football comp, I'll finish this laterz...

Woka

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:32 AM

To be truthful, I don't mind the advertisements. I think the only ones that were controversial were the threads that looked valid but were links to adds. Laters, Jeremy

**Wokawidget** · Sep 25th, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by brad jones
other than the fact that a number of sigs will probably end up shorter, so there will be less scrolling

Now I 100% agree with that

Woka

**kleinma** · Sep 25th, 2003, 01:35 PM

guys the bottom line is if you don't like it, you can leave..

I've complained a bit about the ads and such myself but I don't bother anymore... unless your paying for the service, you really have no place to complain at all.. we should be happy marty and brad are pretty receptive to our comments now... If other forums like galah and whatever else are more open to what you want to be able to do, then you can go there and spend your time. I come here because I get answers when I need them generally faster then I ever did posting on visualbasicforums.com and galahtech.com

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by kleinma
guys the bottom line is if you don't like it, you can leave..

I've complained a bit about the ads and such myself but I don't bother anymore... unless your paying for the service, you really have no place to complain at all.. we should be happy marty and brad are pretty receptive to our comments now... If other forums like galah and whatever else are more open to what you want to be able to do, then you can go there and spend your time. I come here because I get answers when I need them generally faster then I ever did posting on visualbasicforums.com and galahtech.com

I fully agree.

**DiGiTaIErRoR** · Sep 25th, 2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by brad jones
It has been noted that several member have been violating the AUP by including ads in their signatures and/or their “title”.

The pertinent portion of the AUP states that “You will not post advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations, all of which are inappropriate and prohibited in the Forums."

The AUP also mentions that "You will not, furthermore, collect personal information about forum members for the purpose of sending them any such advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, or solicitations through other means (email, messaging programs, etc.)."

What this means is that while it is OK to have in your signature a link to a website that you personally own or operate, it is not OK to post links to, or advertisements for, competing websites or vendors that are not authorized by the management of Jupitermedia.

We ask that all members remove any such links or advertisements. Your cooperation in this is appreciated.

Should you have questions concerning your signature or title, please send a PM to any moderator or administrator.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Acceptable Usage Policy

Asking the users to follow the AUP, while the operators of this site do not is pathetically hypocritical.

The users, unfortunate to you, make this site what it is. Blatant disregard and disrespect for them will only cause them to ultimately resent you.

**crptcblade** · Sep 25th, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Wokawidget
From what I have read in this thread I have come to the conclusion it is perfectly OK to do the following:

You can find the solution at:
www.WokasVBWebSiteBetterThanVBF.com

But to have this is my sig it's not...?

I think the difference is, that posting a link to an article or whatever is a one shot deal, since an answer to a specific question couldn't be found here. Where a link or image in your sig would be everywhere you posted.

D.E. - If I was a guest at your house, would I expect you to sleep on a pull out sofa, just because I had to?

Users make up the community, but at the end of the day, it is still their site.

And as I've said before, its just a website. If you have nothing better to do than sit around complaining about a free service, then I truly envy you.

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 02:40 PM

Since I agree and understand, I have taken the link to my site out of my sig. No harm done by doing so. Laters, Jeremy

**Wokawidget** · Sep 25th, 2003, 02:40 PM

I agree...sort of. Brad, you have developer.com in your sig. If I had that in mine it would be breaking the rules, but you're allowed. I am overlooking the fact you are an admin here by the way.
But on the other hand, Kleinma has a damn good point, and I completely agree with him too

It's a hard call, I am just glad I am not a mod who makes these descisions, as you guys are the ones who cop all the crap, and that I don't have links to other sites in my sig

Personally I love VBF, Galah sucks

If it wasn't for VBF I would be stuck in a dead end job with hardly any skills...literally I have learnt everything I know from people on this site, many of whom are posting in this thread.
Cheers guys.

Woka

PS. Due to VBF I have just landed a top notch Developers job and IT consultancy position in one of the UK's top civil engineering companies

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 25th, 2003, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Wokawidget
I agree...sort of. Brad, you have developer.com in your sig. If I had that in mine it would be breaking the rules, but you're allowed. I am overlooking the fact you are an admin here by the way.
But on the other hand, Kleinma has a damn good point, and I completely agree with him too

It's a hard call, I am just glad I am not a mod who makes these descisions, as you guys are the ones who cop all the crap, and that I don't have links to other sites in my sig

Personally I love VBF, Galah sucks
If it wasn't for VBF I would be stuck in a dead end job with hardly any skills...literally I have learnt everything I know from people on this site, many of whom are posting in this thread.
Cheers guys.

Woka

PS. Due to VBF I have just landed a top notch Developers job and IT consultancy position in one of the UK's top civil engineering companies

You speak the truth. VBF is still a great site no matter what has happened in the past. Galah does suck and is the worst display of unprofessionalism I've ever seen. Congrats on the job by the way too. Can't beat that. Laters, Jeremy

**MartinLiss** · Sep 25th, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by DiGiTaIErRoR
.... Blatant disregard and disrespect for them will only cause them to ultimately resent you.

I don't believe we have done either of those things.

**Edneeis** · Sep 25th, 2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by brad jones
Additionally, Jupitermedia does advertisements on the site to pay for the cost of running the site. Jupitermedia is a company and like most companies works to make a profit. (JUPM is the stock symbol if you care to be an owner or care to see how the company is doing).

I don't think that the local KMart store is going to let the Target and Walmart stores post their ads on the shelves in the KMart store. I don't think that Target or Walmart would expect to be allowed to post such ads within KMart. While we are not these stores, I believe the analogy applies.

Brad

Think of it as price matching

And Kleinma, unless you own VBForums you'd better remove your 'FIND THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION HERE' link as it advertises a site.

Actually although I think of this policy as hypocritical, more than that I agree with Kleinma

guys the bottom line is if you don't like it, you can leave..

Although it kinda sounds rude when we say it like that.

**Radames** · Sep 25th, 2003, 04:29 PM

But the site in Kleinmas link is vbforums... owned by JupiterMedia. You see where im gettin at?

**kleinma** · Sep 26th, 2003, 06:15 AM

my link in the sig is for VBForums and is only ON my VBForums ID profile, so my ID for lets say VisualBasicForums.com doesn't have the same sig as that wouldn't be right to them (yes I have an acct there

but i think my post count is like 2

)

anyways

originally posted by Edneeis
Although it kinda sounds rude when we say it like that.

it does sound kind of rude... but since Im not an admin and just what I would say a regular around here, I can tell it how it is, I dont have to butter it up at all by talking about policies etc

no matter how you look at it, this is a place to come for help with visual basic code... and like I said before, I will continue to come here until I can't get that help anymore. I can stand the ads unless they became overwhelmingly dominant on the site

**jesus4u** · Sep 26th, 2003, 01:54 PM

Very simple question for brad jones.

Why in the world do you NEED to ban signatures that advertise links to other sites? What is Jupitermedia threatened by anyway?

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 26th, 2003, 01:55 PM

jesus4u,
What a great name!

**brad jones** · Sep 26th, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by jesus4u
Very simple question for brad jones.

Why in the world do you NEED to ban signatures that advertise links to other sites? What is Jupitermedia threatened by anyway?

First, let me say that we are not banning signatures.

Secondly, let me state that it not a matter of being threatened, it is a matter of simply asking people to follow the stated rules of the site.

Granted we have overlooked some of the rules in the past, but the size and extent of people violating some of them has grown. The change to signatures only impacts a very small percentage of people.

Brad!

**Memnoch1207** · Sep 26th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Obviously, JupiterMedia doesn't want competition, which is of course the economic basis of a democratic society.
Economic competition is healthy. However, the fewer people using this site the less chance of picking up new advertisers.
Thus, in order to benefit their own economic situation, which based on their current $4.60/share stock prices, surely needs it, they don't want any competition that would lose users from this site.
Which would in turn lose advertisers, losing income, thus sending all JupiterMedias employees into local unemployment lines vying for jobs that you and I are competing for.

So they can be as hypocritical as they want with their "We can advertise, but you can't" attitude, frankly because I don't want the additional competition when trying to land a job.

And yes, the site in my signature is mine, look it up on whois.net.

**manavo11** · Sep 26th, 2003, 04:46 PM

I think that two of the most reffered sites around must be planet source code and allapi.net. So it would be wrong to link to those websites in my sig even though I end up mentioning them in 1/5 posts? Just making sure...

Philip

PS I just removed the link to DeveloperKB like the others...

**JCScoobyRS** · Sep 26th, 2003, 04:48 PM

Philip,
You are a good man. I'd love for more people to visit the site but I don't want to piss anyone off in the proces s and I appreciate that you did the same. Laters, Jeremy

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