Jessica Lynch Story : The Truth !?

[honeybee]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...nt/3028585.stm

That's the most interesting piece of Hollywood action I have known The latest Iraq war might have been better had they released video cassettes and CDs

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[kleinma]

you really have nothing better to do....

the *****ing girl went through more than you could imagine.. so why don't you leave it alone

[Gaffer]

Errr, as far as I can see she didn't go through as much as was made out. Is this what you want Kleinma? Believe a wholly inaccurate Hollywood production with glee, but stick your head under the covers if shown otherwise? The truth sucks sometimes...

[Gaffer]

...and you know what? I'll defend HB here, it's not that he's got nothing better to do, it's just that those of use who look at independent, unbiased news coverage saw this story all over the front pages this morning and felt sad and embarrassed for those soldiers who jumped out of the helicopters, shouting Go! Go! Go!, firing blank bullets into the ground... ugh...

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Gaffer
...and you know what? I'll defend HB here, it's not that he's got nothing better to do, it's just that those of use who look at independent, unbiased news coverage saw this story all over the front pages this morning and felt sad and embarrassed for those soldiers who jumped out of the helicopters, shouting Go! Go! Go!, firing blank bullets into the ground... ugh...

Yeah some Iraqi doctor said that so it must be true right?

If you believe that US soldiers went into hostile enemy occupied territory with blanks in their guns your a bigger moron then I thought.

The BBC puts out nothing but a bunch of left wing garbage. Even their own embedded reporters complained about the coverage not portraying an accurate picture of what was really happening. Not to mention when one of the most important scenes of the war was happening, the taking down of the Saddam statue in Baghdad, what was the BBC reporting? An earthquake in India!

Unbiased news coverage my ass.

X

[kleinma]

Originally posted by Gaffer
...and you know what? I'll defend HB here, it's not that he's got nothing better to do, it's just that those of use who look at independent, unbiased news coverage saw this story all over the front pages this morning and felt sad and embarrassed for those soldiers who jumped out of the helicopters, shouting Go! Go! Go!, firing blank bullets into the ground... ugh...

anything you read or see that has a negative portryal of the US you agree with and believe.. anything the opposite of that you don't... how could you read unbiased news when you yourself are 100% biased??? lets see you go to war and get captured.. i bet you would cry and piss your pants like a baby

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by Xanith
Yeah some Iraqi doctor said that so it must be true right?

If you believe that US soldiers went into hostile enemy occupied territory with blanks in their guns your a bigger moron then I thought.

The BBC puts out nothing but a bunch of left wing garbage. Even their own embedded reporters complained about the coverage not portraying an accurate picture of what was really happening. Not to mention when one of the most important scenes of the war was happening, the taking down of the Saddam statue in Baghdad, what was the BBC reporting? An earthquake in India!

Unbiased news coverage my ass.

X

I never consider these discussions as being personal, so I won't degrade down to your level and denounce you as being a moron, or suchlike. You lose potency in debate when you lose your temper.

Part of your problem when considering your own country is that you can't take criticism. Your response have, in one foul swoop, denounced one of the most internationally respected news sources in the world as being "left wing garbage", incorrectly accusing the institution of not broadcasting the falling satatue, when quite clearly it was their major news story at the time, and amazingly announce that their reporters thought their own coverage was biased.

Until you decide to up your game, and come through with some reasonable arguments, I will continue to post my observances, regardless of which country I criticise, as long as I know my news sources are reliable, such as the BBC, CNN etc

[Gaffer]

Klenma

You must be refrerring to some other Gaffer, or you quite clearly have not been reading my posts, just reacting to them. Once again, I wll state that I am not an american basher (please see my post "Backtracking") - I am purely and simply interested in the morality of county;s actions. At the moment, your country is streets ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to political hippocracy, corporate greed, and blinkeed foreign policy, much as my country was 300 years ago. But as I say in my post to Xanith, you just...cannot...take...any..criticism when it comes to your country, no self depreciation.

Let me see me go to war and piss my pants like a baby? heh. funny. I grew up in Belfast in the 70s, so there's not much you can tell me about living in a warzone - at least this one hasn't lasted 30 years, like in Northern Ireland....

You should really read and try to understand people befire jumping to conclusions - honestlty, it's quite cathartic...

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Gaffer
I never consider these discussions as being personal, so I won't degrade down to your level and denounce you as being a moron, or suchlike. You lose potency in debate when you lose your temper.

I didn’t "lose my temper" as you put it. And Ill stand by my statement when I said if you actually believe that during a war the US Military went in enemy occupied territory and US soldiers put blanks in their guns just for a photo op then you are indeed a moron.

Originally posted by Gaffer

Part of your problem when considering your own country is that you can't take criticism. Your response have, in one foul swoop, denounced one of the most internationally respected news sources in the world as being "left wing garbage", incorrectly accusing the institution of not broadcasting the falling satatue, when quite clearly it was their major news story at the time, and amazingly announce that their reporters thought their own coverage was biased.

I can take criticism if its true not some left wing spin on what actually happened. And what I have said of the BBC is truth. When the statue was coming down they were reporting on the earthquake in India. And one of the BBC's own reporters embedded in Iraq complained about how bias the BBC was in their reporting of the war. If the people that work for the BBC are complaining there must be something wrong with it.

Originally posted by Gaffer

Until you decide to up your game, and come through with some reasonable arguments, I will continue to post my observances, regardless of which country I criticise, as long as I know my news sources are reliable, such as the BBC, CNN etc

It’s not my fault you can’t even address what I have said. Perhaps its because I shot you down? It’s alright post your "observations" all you want. Ill be here to poke holes in your obviously flawed observations

X

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Gaffer
Klenma

You must be refrerring to some other Gaffer, or you quite clearly have not been reading my posts, just reacting to them. Once again, I wll state that I am not an american basher (please see my post "Backtracking") - I am purely and simply interested in the morality of county;s actions. At the moment, your country is streets ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to political hippocracy, corporate greed, and blinkeed foreign policy, much as my country was 300 years ago. But as I say in my post to Xanith, you just...cannot...take...any..criticism when it comes to your country, no self depreciation.

Let me see me go to war and piss my pants like a baby? heh. funny. I grew up in Belfast in the 70s, so there's not much you can tell me about living in a warzone - at least this one hasn't lasted 30 years, like in Northern Ireland....

You should really read and try to understand people befire jumping to conclusions - honestlty, it's quite cathartic...

I want to see some posts about France and Russia soon then. I would be interested to hear what you think about the actions of those 2 particular countries. Ohhhh and Germany too

X

[kleinma]

Originally posted by Xanith
I want to see some posts about France and Russia soon then. I would be interested to hear what you think about the actions of those 2 particular countries. Ohhhh and Germany too

X

he is just in denial

[Slow_Learner]

Considering the (extremely probable) tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiery killed, the 1-2k or more civilians killed, the incident with the Syrian bus crossing the bridge getting bombed - what in the hell would make someone believe the Marines even BROUGHT blanks to Iraq? Why would they be afraid to shoot people just in that hospital, when they were pretty comfortable shooting people everywhere else in the country? The writer of that piece needed to take a few grains of salt with what the good Dr. Uday reported (and so should readers).

As to Pfc. Lynch's physical condition, well, the blatant silliness of the reported "they were shooting blanks" kind of puts a different light on the testimony the BBC is citing. Sounds like Baghdad Bob wrote that bit.

edit: Some other things that ring false about those statements, as well as BBC's presentation of them as God's honest truth. If the Iraqi doctors were trying to hand her back over to the Marines peacefully, what was their reason? They weren't releasing the other Coalition prisoners belonging to her unit taken at the same time. Was her physical condition too bad for them to treat? But they said she only had road traffic injuries??

[Slow_Learner]

//Let me see me go to war and piss my pants like a baby?

Actually I'm pretty sure he was talking about being captured by the Iraqis, who don't have all that good a track record when it comes to prisoner welfare (of course it could all be lies!)

[Memnoch1207]

among the other questionable statements that Slow_learner pointed out in the article...

There was one more twist. Two days before the snatch squad arrived, Harith had arranged to deliver Jessica to the Americans in an ambulance.

But as the ambulance, with Private Lynch inside, approached a checkpoint American troops opened fire, forcing it to flee back to the hospital. The Americans had almost killed their prize catch.

1. If the arrangement was already made, why did the US (supposedly) open fire on the ambulance?

2. It is against the geneva convention to target "Red Cross" or "Medical" vehicles. Being a former U.S. soldier I can honestly say that no U.S. Soldier, Marine, Airman or Seaman would ever target a clearly marked medical vehicle. Unless of course he was wanting to go to Leavenworth for a few years.

That entire article rings so untrue in my opinion.

Yet, some of you will believe it without any proof...It's is a reporters article against the word of the U.S. Government.

And you make fun of Jesus4U for having blind faith....hahahaha

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
among the other questionable statements that Slow_learner pointed out in the article...


1. If the arrangement was already made, why did the US (supposedly) open fire on the ambulance?

2. It is against the geneva convention to target "Red Cross" or "Medical" vehicles. Being a former U.S. soldier I can honestly say that no U.S. Soldier, Marine, Airman or Seaman would ever target a clearly marked medical vehicle. Unless of course he was wanting to go to Leavenworth for a few years.

That entire article rings so untrue in my opinion.

Yet, some of you will believe it without any proof...It's is a reporters article against the word of the U.S. Government.

And you make fun of Jesus4U for having blind faith....hahahaha

It's a good point about no US soldier opening fire on a marked medical vehicle. However I doubt if the US soldier would override his superior's commands in such a case.

This entire thread shows that some people don't want to even hear about any other views than the US government ones. And everyone knows how credible the US government is nowadays

It's not that me or some other members would believe that story to be 100% accurate without proof, but at least I believe there's no smoke without fire.

Just because it's a reporter's word against the US government doesn't mean the reporter has to be lying. After all the US and the UK governments have been proved the biggest liars in recent times ...

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[Slow_Learner]

//Just because it's a reporter's word against the US government doesn't mean the reporter has to be lying. After all the US and the UK governments have been proved the biggest liars in recent times ...

It's not that at all. It's just that the statements in the BBC story are patently unbelievable. Can anyone explain to me why the Coalition forces would be afraid to kill a few people in that one place in Iraq to the point where they would use blank ammunition, yet be willing to open fire on crowds of protesters in a couple of other locations? If they're willing to go to stupid, unnecessary and unsafe lengths for media coverage in the Pfc. Lynch rescue, why screw the pooch so badly by shooting protesters and Syrian buses? That's just not something I can stretch my imagination far enough to believe. Not at all because "the US government said so".

[OrdinaryGuy]

"It was like a Hollywood film. They cried 'go, go, go', with guns and blanks without bullets, blanks and the sound of explosions."


Im sure they dont say Go, Go, Go so loudly when they are storming a building that the enemy inside can hear it? Dont they have walkie-talkie sets?

[OrdinaryGuy]

Yes HoneyBee.. the US in the no. one liar in the world. You deserve an accolade for this remarkable discovery by you. I'm not going to debate with you on points that you yourself cannot prove.

[Pc_Madness]

Originally posted by honeybee
It's a good point about no US soldier opening fire on a marked medical vehicle. However I doubt if the US soldier would override his superior's commands in such a case.

How do you know if it was marked or not?

[Nightwalker83]

It's a good point about no US soldier opening fire on a marked medical vehicle. However I doubt if the US soldier would override his superior's commands in such a case.

The US or indeed any forces don't alway follow their commanding officers orders.

[Ex-FB]

I can't say I believe this report, although it does raise some interesting questions (I always wondered how the troops had enough time to discover and dig up the shallow graves.... if there weren't any enemy soldiers there, then that explains that). But even if they "knew" the enemy had fled, I'm sure they would have gone in there with the full expectation that they might come back. I still think it was a daring and brave rescue and deserves a lot of respect for that (if a bit hyped for TV - who the *flock* takes a video camera into battle with them....?)

But it doesn't mean that it should be discarded out of hand as lies. I find the personal attacks on this site by some members to be a disturbing trend. If you cannot carry on an adult argument without resorting to name calling, then how do you honestly expect anyone to pay attention to what you say.

[Memnoch1207]

Most special warfare teams...Seals, Delta, PJ's, etc... actually do take mini camcorders on operations with them...It can be used for intelligence or training purposes later, after the operation has been completed...When debriefing these commandos there is alot of the "Fog of Battle", and they don't always remember details of rooms, people or locations...but with the video, they can go back and review it, and find the details that were missing.

[Shaggy Hiker]

This debate centers around whether on not people believe in this report. Nobody actually has any facts, just the various reports. However, I think there is not a person on this forum that is not aware that certain news stories are shot for effect. The military is not immune to this. The famous photo of McArthur returning to the Philipines was staged. Originally, he didn't have to wade, but he realized that it wouldn't make a good image, so he had the boat backed off the beach. Of course, he wasn't just a great general.

Was this story real? We don't know. The blanks seem unlikely. Why use real explosives and not use real bullets? Hollywood explosions are carefully crafted, pre-sighted, works of art.

I tend to believe that the story is more or less true, but I don't have any knowledge yet either. If the BBC has a left wing slant, and Fox has a pronounced right wing slant (though some here seem to disbelieve this, as if it was some kind of secret), the truth may not lie in either of these situations. We will know the story, but we won't know the story for some time yet.

Just like all those premature reports of chemical weapons, the truth will take some time to reveal itself. The military is not above getting favorable coverage, or staging shots, they've done it before. Furthermore, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Did they stage something here? I don't know. And I doubt any of you do either.

[Slow_Learner]

//If the BBC has a left wing slant, and Fox has a pronounced right wing slant (though some here seem to disbelieve this, as if it was some kind of secret), ...

Oh I'll be first to say that Fox News is horribly inaccurate, far too quick to wave the flag, and are way too right-wing for my taste. The massive number of retractions they had to make during the Iraq coverage speak for themselves.

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
Most special warfare teams...Seals, Delta, PJ's, etc... actually do take mini camcorders on operations with them...It can be used for intelligence or training purposes later, after the operation has been completed...When debriefing these commandos there is alot of the "Fog of Battle", and they don't always remember details of rooms, people or locations...but with the video, they can go back and review it, and find the details that were missing.

Cool! That makes perfect sense. Thanks for that, I was kind of curious, but now I understand why.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Memnoch1207
Most special warfare teams...Seals, Delta, PJ's, etc... actually do take mini camcorders on operations with them...It can be used for intelligence or training purposes later, after the operation has been completed...When debriefing these commandos there is alot of the "Fog of Battle", and they don't always remember details of rooms, people or locations...but with the video, they can go back and review it, and find the details that were missing.

That is quite reasonable. However, the point of the debate is whether there's a possibility the rescue of Jessica Lynch was more a reel-life than a real-life encounter. The Iraqi doctors have claimed that she only suffered injuries that can occur during an accident. Most likely the vehicle she was travelling in met an accident and she was hurt. They claim she had no bullet wound or a weapon wound. There's no clarification on this by the US side. Also the piece about Jessica Lynch items being sold off on the net is simply disgusting.

Going by the statements of various US authorities, such as the "WMDs WILL BE found" etc. etc., specially on the WMDs front, and then the change of justification for the war from WMDs to people's freedom, I can't say I really trust the US government in this case.

I also think CNN and a few other media channels have been accused of being pro-US and pro-Arab. I don't mind if the BBC plays pro-truth. After all Britain is the second largest party in the "coalition" and apart from seeking truth I wonder what other motive would be in investigating incidents like this by a channel such as BBC.

.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by kleinma
the *****ing girl went through more than you could imagine.. so why don't you leave it alone

Yeah, probably she just went through a road accident, something I never imagined because I trusted the US version of her being a war victim...

Why do you want me or anyone else to leave it alone? Don't you want the truth of the matter to be uncovered? Or are you prepared to believe the US government propaganda as the absolute truth?

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[BodwadUK]

Somebody may have pointed this out already but you dont break and arm angle etc just like that. The company was attacked and that is not in question so the chance of her not being wounded from fire or attack is unlikely.

I can beleive that she got good treatment in the hospital because a good doctor knows their job and should not be biased.

i dont believe in the claims of the wounds and i dont trust the word of one doctor, lets just say that more people would have mentioned such a charade.

All news coverage is biased in some way so using one source is bound to give the wrong impression

[Xanith]

Originally posted by honeybee
Yeah, probably she just went through a road accident, something I never imagined because I trusted the US version of her being a war victim...

Im sure the rest of her company that died where all victims of the same traffic accident? Or perhaps you think the US government diliberatly sent that company in the wrong direction in the hopes of them getting captured? And since when do you trust the US version of anything anyway? As always you fail to look at anything objectively and simply stare at the world through your Anti-American glasses. You really should get past your hate as well, I actually feel sorry for you.

Originally posted by honeybee
Why do you want me or anyone else to leave it alone? Don't you want the truth of the matter to be uncovered? Or are you prepared to believe the US government propaganda as the absolute truth?

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People talk about this being used as propaganda but when Pvt. Jessica Lynch was first rescued there was no video released to the press over this incident, only a simple picture of her in the helicopter. The military didn’t make a big deal out the rescue and made a brief statement in a hastily called press conference to announce it. The press seeing it as an interesting story are the ones that played it up, not the US Military/Government.

And since when are you interested in truth, or facts for that matter? You never look at anything objectively and ignore facts that stare you in the face. You also repeat the same discounted stories, or as I like to call them "fairy tales", over and over in the hopes that if you repeat them enough you might convince yourself that they are actually true.

You constantly criticize the US for supposed crimes and conveniently ignore and don't address the atrocities committed by your own country of India. Hypocrisy isn't your middle name....it should be your first name.

X

[Slow_Learner]

//Going by the statements of various US authorities, such as the "WMDs WILL BE found" etc. etc., specially on the WMDs front, and then the change of justification for the war from WMDs to people's freedom, I can't say I really trust the US government in this case.

If you can't trust them in THIS case, then I guess you also can't trust them when they admit to US troops shooting into crowds of protestors, or when they admit the bombing of the Syrian bus, or when they admit to friendly-fire incidents either. What's good for the goose is good for the gander...

[DeadEyes]

One side said she was shot and stabbed the other side said she wasn't.
So has she or hasn't she got those wounds, that should give us a good indication of who is telling the truth.
I wonder how US soldiers feel about this, about 20 soldiers were taken prisoner and she was the one rescued.
"We don't leave our people behind... especially if there young blondes".

[Ex-FB]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
One side said she was shot and stabbed the other side said she wasn't.
So has she or hasn't she got those wounds, that should give us a good indication of who is telling the truth.

I wouldn't bank on conflicting reports. I don't think there's any doubt that the group came under attack, but she may well have been badly injured in a subsequent crash as the driver tried to get them out of trouble (roll-over etc.) Alternatively, she may well have been shot in the conflict. I think the initial confusion might well have just been people jumping to conclusions. Now that the doc's have had a chance to look at her, I'm sure they are experienced enough to know the difference between bullet wounds and crash wounds.

Originally posted by DeadEyes

I wonder how US soldiers feel about this, about 20 soldiers were taken prisoner and she was the one rescued.
"We don't leave our people behind... especially if there young blondes".

In fairness, as far as I know, she was the only one they knew the location of. I'm sure they would have gone in after any of the others as well.

[Slow_Learner]

Pentagon responds to the BBC story:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/19/spr...dod/index.html

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Slow_Learner
Pentagon responds to the BBC story:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/19/spr...dod/index.html

The interesting quote is this story was:

"The Pentagon never released an account of what happened to Lynch because it didn't have an account, Whitman said. "She never told us.""

Which is what I said in my post above. It was the media that played up this story. Not the US Government.

X

[DeadEyes]

Originally posted by Xanith
The interesting quote is this story was:

"The Pentagon never released an account of what happened to Lynch because it didn't have an account, Whitman said. "She never told us.""

Which is what I said in my post above. It was the media that played up this story. Not the US Government.

X

But wasn't it the government via the military who made the video, edited it and called the journos at three in the morning to come look at it?

[kleinma]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
But wasn't it the government via the military who made the video, edited it and called the journos at three in the morning to come look at it?

where does it say that?? or are you just speculating that that is what happened?

[Merrion]

The Guardian and BBC have that info - Cartoon Network News doesn't. If only there were some independent sources...

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Merrion
The Guardian and BBC have that info - Cartoon Network News doesn't. If only there were some independent sources...

I can't trust the BBC or the Guardian for that matter. Their left wing slant is so bad as to make their news reporting unreliable.

X

[DeadEyes]

Originally posted by kleinma
where does it say that?? or are you just speculating that that is what happened?

I assume you're not questioning the bit about the making of the video but about the journalists being called in.
In the documentry it said that they were called in for the briefing in the middle of the night and that they were expecting to see somthing dramatic, er, more dramatic like Saddam being killed.

[Slow_Learner]

Anybody happen to have a transcript of the actual briefing?