Blair losing the plot a little ?

**plenderj** · Apr 23rd, 2003, 07:56 AM

I'm sure the IRA are so overly concerned that what they're saying isn't good enough for the Americans

**Merrion** · Apr 23rd, 2003, 08:11 AM

I'm sure the IRA are so overly concerned that what they're saying isn't good enough for the Americans

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Actually the US is sponsoring the latest round of peace talks and have a lot of political capital invested in it so they are entitled to be consulted on the wording that comes out.

**plenderj** · Apr 23rd, 2003, 08:14 AM

Yeah I'm well aware that the US have been involved, but for christ sake, who the **** cares if the US is happy with the IRA's statement or not ?

**Xanith** · Apr 23rd, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
Yeah I'm well aware that the US have been involved, but for christ sake, who the **** cares if the US is happy with the IRA's statement or not ?

There are a lot of Americans that are Irish can care a great deal about this. I myself am part Irish and we Americans do care that everyone is safe from terrorism where ever they may be.

X

**nishantp** · Apr 23rd, 2003, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by plenderj
Yeah I'm well aware that the US have been involved, but for christ sake, who the **** cares if the US is happy with the IRA's statement or not ?

You seem to resent any influence in any area that is held by the US. Must be a miserable world for you.

**plenderj** · Apr 24th, 2003, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by nishantp
You seem to resent any influence in any area that is held by the US. Must be a miserable world for you.

I would like to see the US keep its noses out of other people's business.
And for starters, it would be nice if the US took care of its own problems - like New Yorks few billion dollar debt - before they tell other countries how they should be run.

**NotLKH** · Apr 24th, 2003, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
And for starters, it would be nice if the US took care of its own problems - like New Yorks few billion dollar debt - before they tell other countries how they should be run.

!!!
This came out of left field.

I thought the rant of the day would be about stolen art, and how dare the US steal from Iraq!

**plenderj** · Apr 24th, 2003, 07:13 AM

And the millions in cash the soldiers tried to steal too.

**NotLKH** · Apr 24th, 2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
And the millions in cash the soldiers tried to steal too.

Obviously Noobs!

**Gaffer** · Apr 24th, 2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Xanith
There are a lot of Americans that are Irish can care a great deal about this. I myself am part Irish and we Americans do care that everyone is safe from terrorism where ever they may be.

X

Sanctmonious claptrap. A huge part of IRA's funding came from the States.

**Xanith** · Apr 24th, 2003, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Gaffer
Sanctmonious claptrap. A huge part of IRA's funding came from the States.

You really shouldn’t blind yourself with abject hatred. The US cracks down and closes any suspected groups that have ties to terrorism around the world. Unfortunately in a free society such as the US terrorist groups have it easy by setting up dummy corporations and collecting money. Al Queada and other terrorist groups have also collected money here in the US to be used against US citizens. Hell we even trained the pilots that flew into the twin towers.

My point is that in a free and open society bad people can take advantage of that and use it against you. That doesn't mean we should turn to a totalitarian dictatorship does it?

In a free country like the US these things will happen. It’s regrettable but unavoidable. And when finally discovered things like groups gathering money for terrorists are shut down by the government. If you believe otherwise then you are just blinding yourself with hatred because no American including myself would stand for such things happening in our country.

X

**Gaffer** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Xanith
You really shouldn’t blind yourself with abject hatred.

That's rich coming from someone who manages to label the whole French nation as being "cowardly"

**Gaffer** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Xanith
You really shouldn’t blind yourself with abject hatred. The US cracks down and closes any suspected groups that have ties to terrorism around the world. Unfortunately in a free society such as the US terrorist groups have it easy by setting up dummy corporations and collecting money. Al Queada and other terrorist groups have also collected money here in the US to be used against US citizens. Hell we even trained the pilots that flew into the twin towers.

My point is that in a free and open society bad people can take advantage of that and use it against you. That doesn't mean we should turn to a totalitarian dictatorship does it?

In a free country like the US these things will happen. It’s regrettable but unavoidable. And when finally discovered things like groups gathering money for terrorists are shut down by the government. If you believe otherwise then you are just blinding yourself with hatred because no American including myself would stand for such things happening in our country.

X

I do not disagree at all with the effort the US puts into anti-terrorism measures, and especially in my home country of Nortern Ireland where Clinton's posse managed to escalate peace to the top of the agenda. I do take objection to your romantic Irish ideas of looking after your home country when in fact half of the population of Boston have donated money to the killing of innocnet civilians.

Let's touch on this "abject hatred" comment. What exactly is it that I hate do you think?

**run_GMoney** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
I would like to see the US keep its noses out of other people's business.
And for starters, it would be nice if the US took care of its own problems - like New Yorks few billion dollar debt - before they tell other countries how they should be run.

Who are you to be sticking your nose in our business? How can you tell us to keep our noses out of other people's business in one sentence and in the next, tell us what we should do about our own problems?

**plenderj** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:37 AM

How am I sticking my nose into your business exactly ?

**run_GMoney** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:44 AM

By trying to tell us how to handle our own problems.

**plenderj** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:49 AM

Hang on, am I going to the press calling your whole country cowards ?
Am I asking citizens of my country to stop buying goods from your country ?
Am I invading your country ?

**Gaffer** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by run_GMoney
By trying to tell us how to handle our own problems.

He did tell you how to clear your huge debt, or how to reduce the sprialing US illiteracy rate, or how to reduce the 12,000/year muders by handguns, or how curtail the shoot-from-the-hip actions of the least intelligent US president in living memory. He was just quantifying your issues...

**run_GMoney** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Dude, you're sticking your nose into our business. You're telling us to do something about our country that has NOTHING to do with you. NOTHING!!! That is sticking your nose into our business. That's what you said the US should not do. I don't care what level of "nose sticking" is happening. How can you tell us not to do it and then do it right back?

**Xanith** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by Gaffer
I do not disagree at all with the effort the US puts into anti-terrorism measures, and especially in my home country of Nortern Ireland where Clinton's posse managed to escalate peace to the top of the agenda. I do take objection to your romantic Irish ideas of looking after your home country when in fact half of the population of Boston have donated money to the killing of innocnet civilians.

Let's touch on this "abject hatred" comment. What exactly is it that I hate do you think?

I am not denying that some here in the US likely donated money knowing full well it would be used for terrorist actions. Unfortunately there are those living here in the US that also donate money knowing full well it will kill innocent Americans as well. Like I have said this is the price for living in a free country. The government cracks down, even more so now after 9/11 when it finds these people. Its all that can be done and I don’t think going to a police state to quell all such activity is the answer. It’s the price we pay for freedom.

And I do think you resent the US. I also get the feeling of hatred and loathing as well for the US. Maybe this is misplaced but all I usually see from you is anti-US statements. It was nice to read however that you acknowledged the US and their role in the peace process in Northern Ireland but then you just state that its because of the US that there is terrorism. Was a nice thought to begin with but then you ruined it by inflammatory rhetoric that you know is not the fault of the US but rather an unfortunate circumstance of living in a free society.

The US is far from perfect and has made huge mistakes in the past. This I wont deny. But generally the US means well and tries to do the right thing.

X

**plenderj** · Apr 24th, 2003, 08:59 AM

I didn't tell you what to do. I just said take care of your own problems before you decide to stick your nose into other peoples' and make theirs worse!

**Xanith** · Apr 24th, 2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Gaffer
That's rich coming from someone who manages to label the whole French nation as being "cowardly"

I don’t hate the French. If I did I would hate myself, as I am 1/2 French

I am saying the actions of the French government are cowardly. I should have made that distinction. Sorry if I mislead anyone.

X

**Xanith** · Apr 24th, 2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
I didn't tell you what to do. I just said take care of your own problems before you decide to stick your nose into other peoples' and make theirs worse!

Considering you Europeans started the last 2 World Wars I think it best that the US tries to at least keep you guys from killing each other again

X

**Shaggy Hiker** · Apr 24th, 2003, 11:58 AM

America does mean well, and does try to do the right thing, but we also have a tendency to jump too quickly. We are quite willing to harm any one person or group, so long as we perceive that entity to be in the wrong. However, history often proves us wrong in our decisions (e.g. bio-warfare against Native Americans, mistaken support of French colonies in Viet Nam, Somalia, etc.) when the result of those decisions are aggression towards a group.

One thing that we manage to institutionalize, is a terrific ability to forget our mistakes. In life as in school, those who forget history are destined to repeat it. We must recognize that what we see as good in the current day, may be seen in another light down the road. Therefore, we should try hard not to do things that seem greedy or selfish, because we might be able to forget, but the world may not.

We run the risk of being seen much like Heracles (or Hercules, depending on your background). He was the mightiest of the Greek heroes, but his actions weren't always good, just mighty. He killed his lute teacher when the teacher criticized his playing, but then was mightily remorseful. He had the power to destroy those who offended him (as America has now), but used that power at times to destroy those who could have improved him, simply because they angered him.

**Maven** · Apr 24th, 2003, 12:09 PM

Every country in the world has it's bad history.

**Shaggy Hiker** · Apr 24th, 2003, 03:22 PM

But not every country has tried to lead. I feel that we need to think things through a little longer to see that the examples we set are still ones of which we will be proud down the decades. We have generally not done this, and have taken some hits for shortsighted decisions. Some of our decisions turned out to be acceptable, though not always for reasons that we controlled, but others are ones that we try hard to forget.

We mean so well, but we were among the first to use ethnic cleansing, biological warfare, nuclear weapons (we're the only ones so far, though I don't expect that to last), etc. We seem to learn from our mistakes. I wonder if that's the only way anybody CAN learn?

**KayJay** · Apr 25th, 2003, 02:57 AM

The OED should define "Independence" as not only "not being dependant on.." but also "...not being depended upon".

The current Anti-American sentiments ( I must admit, I myself have been pretty blunt and vociferous against the US of A, though I do not consider myself Anti - American) is primarily because most American policies, outside its geographic confines, has been marred with mis-understanding, over-enthusiasm, brutish arm-twisting, very condescending, and with not a small dose of economic motivations.

It is irritating and annoying, especially when it is a fact that only because the rest of the world wants to deal with the US of A (both economically and politially), does it have and retain its leading position in the world scene. Just remove this implicit sanction, and the US of A's influence will weaken dramatically.

Further, due to various and very valid reasons, the influx of foreigners into the US of A, in the past half century to four score years, has created an impression on the American Policy Makers that the whole wide world wants to get into the US of A and since its physically not possible, they have decided to send "America" to every part of the globe.

Its my opinion that they find it impossible to comperehend that its very plausible and some may even consider it "right", not to want to be American, not to want Capitalism, not to want a Free Market, want a Monarchy, not to want Represntative Democracy, etc. and vehemently maintain that such "differences of opinion" on "principles" should not be condoned and must surely be punished, even if these people operate outside the internationally sanctioned geographic sphere of influence of the US of A.

So, nations must have democracy. Even a Saint of a Person cannot wield political power all by himself/herself. It has to be democracy and only representative democracy, and to top it, a federalized democracy. Nothing else is "right".

A look through history will show that individuals running the show for extended periods of time (more than 10 years) have killed far less people, mostly because they could not kill more, than any group of people who have had power for only 5 years, and worse, knowing that they will have power, only for 5 years or so. And those dictatators who are an exception to the above statement and who have engaged in genocide have always had an explicit support of such regimes who have been put in a place of power for a period of 5 years or so, during the period before and during the act of genocide, if not after.

It is a sad state of affairs. And as A. Y. Mous put it, affairs of state are sad.

God Save....God Bless.....

**Gary.Lowe** · Apr 25th, 2003, 04:06 AM

I think we should all have a big hug and a beer

**KayJay** · Apr 25th, 2003, 04:12 AM

My shout!

**Gary.Lowe** · Apr 25th, 2003, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by KayJay
My shout!

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