Pro-war people, answer me this

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 07:54 AM

Lets say you do indeed take over the entire country.
You cause more civilian casulaties and lose more infantry yourselves.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?
What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?
What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

**dogsby** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:00 AM

1. There will always be people loyal to saddam, nothing to do about it.

2. This war will not stop terrorism, nothing can

3. We will find them. He has them, there is no doubt. He buries them in the sand and hides them. He moves them around so noone knows where they are. I dont understand how some of you can be so naive to think he dosent have them.

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:10 AM

Originally posted by dogsby
1. There will always be people loyal to saddam, nothing to do about it.

2. This war will not stop terrorism, nothing can

3. We will find them. He has them, there is no doubt. He buries them in the sand and hides them. He moves them around so noone knows where they are. I dont understand how some of you can be so naive to think he dosent have them.

1) So what would the troops do ? Attack the civilians ?

2) That's not what half the pro-war people say.

3) So I'm naive because I think he could have actually destroyed them.
But at the same time, the pro-war people are not because they're believing their governments with absolutely no proof for an attack.

And by the way, I don't care either way if he has chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
I'm not saying he does or does not have them.
I'm just asking what if.

**Gary.Lowe** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:29 AM

I say let then sort thier own problems out.

What ever you do someone is opposed. So I say look after our own and if people what to do something about somewhere else let them deal with it and don't get other people involved.

**simonm** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:31 AM

plenderj

I wouldn't call myself "pro-war" but I'll have a go at answering your questions anyway.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?

Do you mean actual civillians or just security forces dressed as civillians in order to confuse the coalition forces?

Presumably, people in civillian clothes who attack coalition forces will be regarded as enemy combatants and treated accordingly.

What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?

Even the pro-war people do not claim that the subjegation of the Iraqi regime will stop all terrorist attacks. Saddam is only one of the sponsors of terrorism. There are many more besides.

What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

I guess that will be extremely embarassing for the British and American governments. They will have to admit they are wrong, I guess.

**dogsby** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:33 AM

1. not sure what would happen there.

2. Im not half the pro war people.

3. If he destroyed them, why wouldnt he admit it to the un? why kick out the inspectors for the last how many ever years? If he has nothing to hide, why did he do this? Why didnt he claim everything he has in the last few months? Why dosent he feed his own people?
People will believe whatever they are told/read. People interpret things differently. I really dont care if he has wmd or not, he just has to be removed from power. (but he does have them

Dogsby

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by simonm
plenderj

I wouldn't call myself "pro-war" but I'll have a go at answering your questions anyway.

Do you mean actual civillians or just security forces dressed as civillians in order to confuse the coalition forces?

Presumably, people in civillian clothes who attack coalition forces will be regarded as enemy combatants and treated accordingly.

Even the pro-war people do not claim that the subjegation of the Iraqi regime will stop all terrorist attacks. Saddam is only one of the sponsors of terrorism. There are many more besides.

I guess that will be extremely embarassing for the British and American governments. They will have to admit they are wrong, I guess.

I mean the families of civilians who were killed by the US forces.
Seeing as most people are armed, I wouldn't put it past them to attack US soldiers.

And re; terrorism I more mean that a US occupation of Iraq could incite more terrorism and hatred from the region against the US.

I honestly could never see that happening.

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by dogsby
If he destroyed them, why wouldnt he admit it to the un?

If I was in his position I'd react the exact same way.
If someone started pissing all over my country I'd make it as damn difficult as possible to get a straight answer out of me.

**kleinma** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
If I was in his position I'd react the exact same way.
If someone started pissing all over my country I'd make it as damn difficult as possible to get a straight answer out of me.

what about all the people that were cheering as we came in to free them from being controled by a dictator? Saddam has murdered more peoples families than we will in accidental deaths of civilians

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by kleinma
what about all the people that were cheering as we came in to free them from being controled by a dictator? Saddam has murdered more peoples families than we will in accidental deaths of civilians

Not necessarily representative of the entire population though.
We have no idea how things will pan out yet.
And I personally think its going to get very very nasty.

**simonm** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:41 AM

plenderj

I mean the families of civilians who were killed by the US forces.
Seeing as most people are armed, I wouldn't put it past them to attack US soldiers.

Well, I don't think that US forces will be capable of making such a distinction. Any people that attack US troops, be they in civillian clothes or not, will be dealt with in the same way.

And re; terrorism I more mean that a US occupation of Iraq could incite more terrorism and hatred from the region against the US.

Again, can such a distinction be made?

Perhaps the war will incite more terrorism but how much of it will be thwarted before we even know about it? How will we know whether or not it would have happened anyway?

If I was in his position I'd react the exact same way.
If someone started pissing all over my country I'd make it as damn difficult as possible to get a straight answer out of me.

Even if you knew behaving in such a way meant your certain destruction? I doubt it.

**Maven** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
Lets say you do indeed take over the entire country.
You cause more civilian casulaties and lose more infantry yourselves.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?
What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?
What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

1. If someone is shooting out our troops, our troops will return fire. Even now Saddams military has been dressing as civilians and shooting at us.

2. I'm sure we will.

3. Would be a blunder on our part. But I'm pretty sure we are going to find them and I'm afraid we will find them the hard way (him launching them). Seeing his troops carry gas masks and atropine is not a good sign.

**kleinma** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:48 AM

we are at war and nothing you guys can type makes 1 tiny bit of difference at all...

how does that make you feel?

**Maven** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
1) So what would the troops do ? Attack the civilians ?

2) That's not what half the pro-war people say.

3) So I'm naive because I think he could have actually destroyed them.
But at the same time, the pro-war people are not because they're believing their governments with absolutely no proof for an attack.

And by the way, I don't care either way if he has chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
I'm not saying he does or does not have them.
I'm just asking what if.

1. Grab a gun go outside and start shooting at a police officer, he'll shoot back.

2. I have not heard the arugment that offing Saddam will stop terrorism.

3. There is several reasons why I won't beleve him. The first one is that he has had a history of lying to the weapon inspectors. All through the 90's he lied to them, threaten them, and even kicked them out. The 2nd reason is that he wouldn't have destoryed them in a secret way, he wouldn't have had reason to threaten weapons inspectors, or the likes. He would be able to provide proof that he did it. The 3rd reason is that already during this war we have been uncovering scud missles. We found some the other day in a checmail weapons plant. Its hard to think up inoccent excuses for having scuds in a checmial plant. The 4th reason is he is supplying his troops with Gas Masks and Atropine which suggests to me and people in military that when we get so close to bagdad he is going to shoot them at us.

**kleinma** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by Maven
1. Grab a gun go outside and start shooting at a police officer, he'll shoot back.

2. I have not heard the arugment that offing Saddam will stop terrorism.

3. There is several reasons why I won't beleve him. The first one is that he has had a history of lying to the weapon inspectors. All through the 90's he lied to them, threaten them, and even kicked them out. The 2nd reason is that he wouldn't have destoryed them in a secret way, he wouldn't have had reason to threaten weapons inspectors, or the likes. He would be able to provide proof that he did it. The 3rd reason is that already during this war we have been uncovering scud missles. We found some the other day in a checmail weapons plant. Its hard to think up inoccent excuses for having scuds in a checmial plant. The 4th reason is he is supplying his troops with Gas Masks and Atropine which suggests to me and people in military that when we get so close to bagdad he is going to shoot them at us.

Maven don't you realize its not worth arguing anymore??? no one is going to sway this way or that.. just be happy you live in the best nation on the planet.. and don't waste your breath.. its not worth it... they are all just jealous

**swatty** · Mar 26th, 2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by kleinma
we are at war and nothing you guys can type makes 1 tiny bit of difference at all...

how does that make you feel?

Sad.
And we can't stop it if we wish to.

I can only hope for the allied troops they'll win.

**swatty** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by kleinma
they are all just jealous

Jealous of what ?

**run_GMoney** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:06 AM

He was just saying that if you had the opporunity to move here, you would in a second. We're the greatest country in the world with the greatest opportunities. You'd be lying to yourself if you said you didn't want to be here

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:08 AM

I would never want to move to the US. And I've never wanted to.

If you're such a great country why don't you tackle your own problems first before "helping" anyone else ?

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:10 AM

And statements like that is arrogance embodied.
If you truly feel that you're the best nation out there with the best resources and the best of everything... then I dunno.
You'll never value anyone else's arguments because you'll believe your country must be completely right about the things its doing.

**swatty** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
I would never want to move to the US. And I've never wanted to.

If you're such a great country why don't you tackle your own problems first before "helping" anyone else ?

Couldn't have stated it better.
I have to join Jamie in this.

**run_GMoney** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:13 AM

I am absolutely 100% arrogant about the country that I live in. And rightly so. It is the greatest country in the world. And you can't even deny that. You can disagree with our morals, you can disagree with our politics, but you can't disagree with the opportunities here. Every countries have problems. I'd say ours are pretty small. It would be far more arrogant of us to tend to our minor problems and ignore our responsibility of policing the world.

**Maven** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by kleinma
Maven don't you realize its not worth arguing anymore??? no one is going to sway this way or that.. just be happy you live in the best nation on the planet.. and don't waste your breath.. its not worth it... they are all just jealous

LOL I know, its just a good way to waste type...

Hopefully this war will end quickly and we can all get back to arguing about what is the best sort algorithm or why c++ is better then VB. =)

**Juan Carlos Rey** · Mar 26th, 2003, 09:45 AM

posted by plenderj:

What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

Don't worry, mate, they will always find what they want to find, even if they have to show us scrap as the did in Afganistan.

**Xanith** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
Lets say you do indeed take over the entire country.
You cause more civilian casulaties and lose more infantry yourselves.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?
What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?
What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

What if aliens landed and pigs started to fly?

X

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:04 AM

Bush would find precedence to fool the US people into thinking they're a threat and you'd blow them to pieces.

**Xanith** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by plenderj
Not necessarily representative of the entire population though.
We have no idea how things will pan out yet.
And I personally think its going to get very very nasty.

You mean you hope it does. Thats kinda sick hoping more civilians die to prove your point. I personally hope they can see past the Iraqi state TV brainwashing and see the coalition forces are their to finally get rid of that murdering, raping, and brutal dictator that is Saddam. I also hope no more innocents have to die because of Saddam.

X

**X8-452** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:09 AM

Hi ppl

I think we should not talk about this war on this forum!!!
Why we just talk about what we all luv: programing, PC's, games, ...

The people who's against this war will be all the time against and the people who agree with this war don't understand why not everybody is against Iraq! So it doesn't mather what you say!!!

[on each search for a example or a problem I get back all that stuff about the damn war]

bye

**Xanith** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Juan Carlos Rey

Don't worry, mate, they will always find what they want to find, even if they have to show us scrap as the did in Afganistan.

More proof that you anti-war people wont even believe evidence presented right in front of your eyes. You will just claim it was planted by the coalition forces.

However I find it funny how you are quick to believe the far left propaganda rags that spew anti-war garbage.

X

**Gaffer** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by run_GMoney
I am absolutely 100% arrogant about the country that I live in. And rightly so. It is the greatest country in the world. And you can't even deny that. You can disagree with our morals, you can disagree with our politics, but you can't disagree with the opportunities here. Every countries have problems. I'd say ours are pretty small. It would be far more arrogant of us to tend to our minor problems and ignore our responsibility of policing the world.

Ugh

A little modesty please. You think it's the greatest country on earth because I doubt you have been further than Shiitville Arizona, and whilst you are sat on your fat ass divulging whatever nationalistic craop on TV is shoved down your throat. You are a poor representative of your country, a country that I very much enjoy, and in which I have many friends and work colleagues.

I suggest you read Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men". It's good therapy to read how disgusting one's country has behaved in history; I know, I'm from the UK...

**crptcblade** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Gaffer
Shiitville Arizona

They have good pie there.

**kedaman** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by X8-452
Hi ppl

I think we should not talk about this war on this forum!!!
Why we just talk about what we all luv: programing, PC's, games, ...

The people who's against this war will be all the time against and the people who agree with this war don't understand why not everybody is against Iraq! So it doesn't mather what you say!!!

[on each search for a example or a problem I get back all that stuff about the damn war]

bye

I agree, its just meaningless when nobody makes an effort for a constructive argument, at the end of the day nobody is going to change their minds and they've had a nice way wasting their and other peoples time.

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:18 AM

Ked. Some of us - both pro and anti-war people have made constructive arguments.
Then you get a few people like Arc who come along name-calling which then turns the thread to crap

**kedaman** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:19 AM

Jamie, you're the supermoderator around, you should keep track of them.

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:25 AM

If I were to be a third-party spectator yes I should.
But if I'm involved in an argument and then I go and delete or edit people's posts, its using my power in an un-fair manner.

Obviously if people use serious name-calling etc. I will delete those posts.
I've been called ignorant by the same one or two people repeatedly, but if instead of debating back I use my power as a supermod, then its not fair.

**kedaman** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:29 AM

fair enough, I wouldn't risk moderating anyone to risk being pointed out as being unfair.

**run_GMoney** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Gaffer
Ugh A little modesty please. You think it's the greatest country on earth because I doubt you have been further than Shiitville Arizona, and whilst you are sat on your fat ass divulging whatever nationalistic craop on TV is shoved down your throat. You are a poor representative of your country, a country that I very much enjoy, and in which I have many friends and work colleagues.

I suggest you read Michael Moore's book "Stupid White Men". It's good therapy to read how disgusting one's country has behaved in history; I know, I'm from the UK...

Well I'm sure you can name a country that offers greater opportunities for everyone, more so than the US. Can you do that?

Fat ass? 145 pounds, good try though. At least you're not guilty of generalizing all Americans :rollseyes:.

I have no desire to read any book or see any movie by Michael Moore.

You can call me arrogant. It doesn't bother me in the least bit. I keep seeing these "you think you're better" or "you arrogant americans" posts that I had to take it over the top.

**Maven** · Mar 26th, 2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by run_GMoney
Well I'm sure you can name a country that offers greater opportunities for everyone, more so than the US. Can you do that?

Fat ass? 145 pounds, good try though. At least you're not guilty of generalizing all Americans :rollseyes:.

I have no desire to read any book or see any movie by Michael Moore.

You can call me arrogant. It doesn't bother me in the least bit. I keep seeing these "you think you're better" or "you arrogant americans" posts that I had to take it over the top.

I'm not going to see anything that has something to do with michael moore either.

**Wafflehose** · Mar 26th, 2003, 11:10 AM

Everyone just has their panties in a twist. If I was in Iraq, and we passed some civilians and then looked back to see them shooting at me, yes I would shoot them. So would any other serviceman. We're not going to stop, and try and negotiate for them to drop their weapons. We're not the Police, we're Marines, and this is war. You just have to have the power to know when to do it. I think that they are doing a great job so far. Face it. This is war. People die in war. It's tragic when a cilvilan dies, don't get me wrong. I'm not that ruthless.

The war is not going to stop terrorism. You don't like that? Blame Eve. She ate the apple. It's not about stopping all terrorism, but reducing it. Do you think that if you took out all of the executives and their money out of a company, the company will fall? Of course it would. BUT parts of that company can still go on. You can take out every higher up terrorist in the world, but you are still going to have guys who can wear a bomb and blow up a bus or something. But by taking out higher powers, maybe you won't have jetliners taking out cities. Now I know someone will come back and say that then the lower guys can become the higher guys, like getting promoted. Yes that's true. Bringing me back to my first point. It's not going to stop it, but reduce it.

If you don't think that there are any weapons, then WHY did the Marines fine antidotes for chemical weapons, as well as biosuits to protect them from these "non-existent" chemicals in the hospital they recently took over? I'm not sure on this one, but didn't he also say he didn't have Scud missiles? But then he fired 4 of them at Kuwait. Whatever.

But then I agree with everyone else. The war is going on, and as sad as it might be, people need a break from it. Taking a break doesn't make you a bad American. I'm a Marine, so if I could I would be out there with my fellow brothers fighting this battle. Time to start a new "something other than war" post. I'll start some great posts about things people love.

**plenderj** · Mar 26th, 2003, 11:12 AM

September11th didn't happen because anyone had chemical or biological weapons.
I've never seen a terrorist attack using weapons like that.

So how would this war reduce terrorism ?

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