France, Belgium and Germany betrayed NATO?

[DeadEyes]

My government wants it not me.

Democracy in action.

[BodwadUK]

1) We have one, the only reason Europe wants one is to remove America from any ties in Europe. America couldnt join a Euro army.

If they want to have this army to do what NATO do would it not be better to add more resources to NATO rather than create a new force. Anyway when was the last time Europe agreed when it comes down to war??? Whats the point of an army if they never get deployed soon enough.


2) Kosovo???????? Enlighten me please


3) We cant do anything about Iraq but we still talk about it, its somwhere to pass on views and ideas is it not???

[BodwadUK]

Democracy in action.

Tell me about it


Most people in Britain want to give more time to weapons inspectors or be shown more evidence before declaring war but our government seems to know something we dont and has run off to America. Tony Blair is probably in everyone elses countrys more than he is here!!!!

[plenderj]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
1) We have one, the only reason Europe wants one is to remove America from any ties in Europe. America couldnt join a Euro army.

How so ?
European citizens can join the american army and vice versa.

[BodwadUK]

You have the wrong end of the stick i feel

I mean that America could not be part of Europe and help in the coalition by donating some of its troops in the name of european army.

E.g NATO has American, German, French etc etc troops in it that fight under one leadership. Becuase America will never be in Europe it could not join this army. I still say what is wrong with NATO????

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by plenderj
How so ?
European citizens can join the american army and vice versa.

You have to be an American citizen to join the American Army.

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
.... I still say what is wrong with NATO????

They let France join.

[Arc]

OK, any of you people that think my comment about Isreal being a FREE and peace loving nation is such a joke care to explain why?

Isreal, would be very content to stay where it is and not attack or even threaten anyone. Isreal only attacks when it is being directly threatened.

If your comments are about the palestenians, well all i can say is Palenstine shouldnt have attacked Isreal. They got thier land took from them and to that i say too ****in bad for them. Isreal has been to the barganing table with them and offered to give alot of it back to them for the sake of peace, but NO they refuse! They want it all or nothing, and untill they get it ALL they will continue to send in Suicide bombers to kill innocent Isrealies. Isreal has no choice but to try and protect itself from these Terrorists.


If you want to take these actions and proclaim that Isreal is not a FREE and peace loving nation, then that just shows your totaly ignorance on the subject.

[BodwadUK]

And Israel is a democracy i believe!!!!!



Iraq is harboring terrorists i dont think anyone can argue against that (Hamas i think) and the war on terror was said to attack any country that harboured terrorists and eliminate as much terrorism as possible. Iraq still harbours terrorists well over a year later so what do you find so wrong about hitting Saddam and these Terrorists????

Do you think terrorism is acceptable?????

[DeadEyes]

Yes Israel is peace loving, Shatila and Shabra spring to mind.
Yesterday Belgium said they could try Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for genocide/war crimes once he leaves office.
You say the Palestinians got their land taken of them so tough, Iraq invaded Kuwait hey so tough on them.
But no a coalition got together to remove them I guess the only oil in Palestine is olive oil.
Didn't your fore fathers fight for their indepenence that is what the Palestinians are doing. I don't agree with their methods but the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist is who wins.

[plenderj]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
Iraq is harboring terrorists

So is Ireland.

[Arc]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
Yes Israel is peace loving, Shatila and Shabra spring to mind.
Yesterday Belgium said they could try Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for genocide/war crimes once he leaves office.
You say the Palestinians got their land taken of them so tough, Iraq invaded Kuwait hey so tough on them.
But no a coalition got together to remove them I guess the only oil in Palestine is olive oil.
Didn't your fore fathers fight for their indepenence that is what the Palestinians are doing. I don't agree with their methods but the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist is who wins.

Ok.. Apparently you dont see the difference between Palenstine Attacking Isreal and Isreal taking Palenstines land.... and Iraq Attacking Kuwait and Taking Kuwaits land. Ummm dont you think theres a pretty big difference there?


I have no sympathy for Palenstine becasue they brought it on themselves. And futhermore ISreal has offered to give some of the Land back! But they refuse to take it.. they want it all or nothing. Well Isreal isnt going to give it ALL back. They need some of it for strategic purposes to protect themselves from another Muslim Attack.

[Arc]

Originally posted by plenderj
So is Ireland.

The difference between the IRA and Al Queda is that the IRA only threatens the people who are occuping thier land... Al Queda threaten the entire free world.

Pretty big difference...

[plenderj]

Originally posted by Arc
The difference between the IRA and Al Queda is that the IRA only threatens the people who are occuping thier land

No not quite
The IRA have tried to assassinate tony blair in the past.
That's more than al queda have done.

[Arc]

Originally posted by plenderj
No not quite
The IRA have tried to assassinate tony blair in the past.
That's more than al queda have done.

Isn't Tony Blair the president of the country who is Occupying them?Hence, why i said they only attack those occupying them.


And what do you mean that's more than Al Queda has done? Do you mean just in Brittian? Surely you havent forgotten about the Airliners and the Falling buildings and 3000 dead people already?

[plenderj]

I meant that Al Queda has attacked civilians. They haven't assassinated leaders yet.
And yes, tony blair is the prime minister of the united kingdom, of which northern ireland is a constituent part.


And England didn't invade the north of ireland.
They took over ireland, and an agreement was reached, and the island of ireland was split.
So there are umpteen different terrorist organizations killing people in the north.

Killing people in their homes, petrol bombing armies etc.
An everyday occurance.

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by Arc
The difference between the IRA and Al Queda is that the IRA only threatens the people who are occuping thier land... Al Queda threaten the entire free world.

Pretty big difference...

You can disect this as much as you like, but if you want to do a comparison between the IRA and Al Queda, then you have to take this into consideration:

The IRA have commited severe acts of terrorism in Northern Ireland over he last 34 years, wioth few breaks. Many more people have died in Northern Ireland than died in Sept 11th, and the small population of Northern Ireland (1.5 mio) have had to endure this for a generation. They have had to endure snipers, bombs, kneecapping, indiscriminate shooting in crowds, car bombs, and recently, crucifixion.

Much of this has been down to the IRA. An IRA that has been consistantly funded by the US of A.

Now, answer me this. How can you sit there and preech to us about the evils of terrorims, whilst your fellow countrymen have funded so many deaths elsewhere? How can you do it?

[Arc]

Originally posted by Gaffer
You can disect this as much as you like, but if you want to do a comparison between the IRA and Al Queda, then you have to take this into consideration:

The IRA have commited severe acts of terrorism in Northern Ireland over he last 34 years, wioth few breaks. Many more people have died in Northern Ireland than died in Sept 11th, and the small population of Northern Ireland (1.5 mio) have had to endure this for a generation. They have had to endure snipers, bombs, kneecapping, indiscriminate shooting in crowds, car bombs, and recently, crucifixion.

Much of this has been down to the IRA. An IRA that has been consistantly funded by the US of A.

Now, answer me this. How can you sit there and preech to us about the evils of terrorims, whilst your fellow countrymen have funded so many deaths elsewhere? How can you do it?

OK umm... you are a very confusing individual.

First of all, i dont doubt what the IRA has done or that it has been going on for a long time and i never stated otherwise.

Second of all, Do you have prrof that the U.S. is funding the IRA? That's the first i've ever heard of it.. Why would the U.S. fund a group of people that are terrorizing it's greatest Allie??

Thirdly, When and where did i preach about the evils of terrorism? I merely showed the difference between the IRA nad Al Queda. IRA = Local threat, Ql Queda = World Wide Threat.

[DeadEyes]

Ok.. Apparently you dont see the difference between Palenstine Attacking Isreal and Isreal taking Palenstines land.... and Iraq Attacking Kuwait and Taking Kuwaits land. Ummm dont you think theres a pretty big difference there?

Israel made the first land grabbing attack, so did Iraq I don't see any difference.
What difference do you see perhaps you could explain?

After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States,
one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947).
One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded

to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine.
Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled.
Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State
which did not come into being.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the
West Bank and Gaza Strip).
This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel.
The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million.
Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in

the 1967 conflict.

[plenderj]

Originally posted by Arc
Second of all, Do you have prrof that the U.S. is funding the IRA? That's the first i've ever heard of it.. Why would the U.S. fund a group of people that are terrorizing it's greatest Allie??

Its a well-known fact that the IRA does its fund-raising in the US.

[DeadEyes]

Its a well-known fact that the IRA does its fund-raising in the US.

I think in fairness to Arc as he is being argued at from all sides.
The fund raising that goes on in America is not done by the
Government but by those bloody ejits who think that having a
great great grand something from Ireland makes you Irish

[plenderj]

Originally posted by DeadEyes
I think in fairness to Arc as he is being argued at from all sides.
The fund raising that goes on in America is not done by the
Government but by those bloody ejits who think that having a
great great grand something from Ireland makes you Irish

Yeah in all fairness he is fighting on all sides.
But, with regards to the IRA and the US, the IRA are getting money from a country that's supposedly on a crusade against terrorism.

That's just laughable.

[DeadEyes]

Granted a lot of money and in some cases weapons have come from America in the past.
Although I've no facts to back up my opinion
I would imagine that since Sept 11th, these funds would have dried up or at least diminished significantly.

[BodwadUK]

US companys may fund it but they arent the USA as a whole so dont blame it on the US!!

Ireland is a local area of attack and seems to seek a cause that is understandable, al queda have actually said they are at war with America and are attempting to destroy America and the west no understandable reason but hatred.


Northern Ireland is an area that hasnt seen massive trouble for a while anyway, it can be resolved by political talks. Al qaueda dont give a F*** about politics and since inspections neither does Saddam!!!!! One day northern Ireland will be in peace because they agree, al Queda wont stop until the west is destroyed (Or they are all wiped out )

[Arc]

Originally posted by plenderj
Its a well-known fact that the IRA does its fund-raising in the US.

Is it really a well known fact? odd i didnt "Know" it and i live here.

Also Al Queda does alot of fund raising here too.. I guess that's one of the down sides of having a FREE country. OFcourse they dont come right out and say "Please Donate to our Al Queda Fund", it's more a secretive thing to do with the muslim church etc... I'm sure that if are people raising funds for the IRA they aren't doing it in the wide open.

[plenderj]

Originally posted by Arc
I'm sure that if are people raising funds for the IRA they aren't doing it in the wide open.

They pretty much so are.

[plenderj]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
US companys may fund it but they arent the USA as a whole so dont blame it on the US!!

We're not blaming the US for anything.
We're just showing that the US isn't the only country that has lost loved-ones to terrorism.

[BodwadUK]

What made me so angry was on sept 11th in iraq (i think) they were celebrating the fact of the attack. Dont know about you but i think thats sick!!!!!! They said that now America knew what a terrorist attack was like as well.
All i can say is that no terrorist attack should warant celebration it should unite people against a cause but it didnt, Why?????

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by Arc
OK umm... you are a very confusing individual.

First of all, i dont doubt what the IRA has done or that it has been going on for a long time and i never stated otherwise.

Second of all, Do you have prrof that the U.S. is funding the IRA? That's the first i've ever heard of it.. Why would the U.S. fund a group of people that are terrorizing it's greatest Allie??

Thirdly, When and where did i preach about the evils of terrorism? I merely showed the difference between the IRA nad Al Queda. IRA = Local threat, Ql Queda = World Wide Threat.

Confusing? How confusing? Let me think back to some of the classic comments you have come out with over the last fortnight, and we'll see who is the confuser, and who is the confused. You were unaware of US funding of Chemical wepons to Iraq a decade ago, you came out with the all time classic "Israel is a peace loving nation", and now we have more magical moments, like "Why would the US fund the IRA".

You'll be telling me that Nixon was a "well rounded individual" next.

I think you should read some more about your history, but through sceptical specticles this time. I personally have NO problem looking at my country's history and saying "what a shower of ****s we have had running this place"

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
US companys may fund it but they arent the USA as a whole so dont blame it on the US!!

Huh?

Ireland is a local area of attack and seems to seek a cause that is understandable, al queda have actually said they are at war with America and are attempting to destroy America and the west no understandable reason but hatred.

No understandable reason to you, because you live an a western capitalistic environment. But not everyone does want to live this this. and we have to understand that some people don't want to live like this. And I believe they have the right to live their life free from what believe to be the "correct" way of living, that of democracy. Democracy is effectively a shambles these days anyway,a s we are seeing with the Iraq situation.

Northern Ireland is an area that hasnt seen massive trouble for a while anyway, it can be resolved by political talks. Al qaueda dont give a F*** about politics and since inspections neither does Saddam!!!!! One day northern Ireland will be in peace because they agree, al Queda wont stop until the west is destroyed (Or they are all wiped out )

Ack, that's too simple. How do you know that Northern Ireland will be in peace on day? how do you know that Al-Quaeda want to destroy the whole of the western World. I would imagine they would be happy targetting countries that have unreasonable foreign policies...

[Xanith]

Originally posted by Gaffer
Confusing? How confusing? Let me think back to some of the classic comments you have come out with over the last fortnight, and we'll see who is the confuser, and who is the confused. You were unaware of US funding of Chemical wepons to Iraq a decade ago, you came out with the all time classic "Israel is a peace loving nation", and now we have more magical moments, like "Why would the US fund the IRA".

While the US did supply weapons to Iraq to help them during the Iran/Iraq war other countries such as Russia and China actually sold weapons to both sides. The US sold the weapons to contain the anti-US fanatical fundamentalist government that was in Iran at the time. I have no problem with what the US did during this time. Looking back on this of course it was a bad idea. But who knew Saddam would turn into such a madman.

Israel is the only democracy in that region. They have been attacked by their neighbors in the past from all sides. The occupied territories are a result of those invasions. There is great hatred from both sides in that conflict. I don't think you can say they are a "peace loving nation" however they are a democratic one. Israel responds to violence with even more violence and the circle of hate just keeps feeding on itself.

The only solution would seem to be to give the Palestinians a piece of the occupied territories as a homeland. Then set up sort of a neutral zone in Jerusalem and the holy sites controlled by the UN. This will never happen though I'm afraid. There is just too much hate in that region for any hope of a peaceful settlement. It really is a shame.

X

[Xanith]

Ohhh one more thing I am confused about. You seem to think the US is actively funding the IRA. Meaning the govenment knows about it and can prove ties to organizations to terrorist groups. I was wondering if you could show me some evidence to this fact because if my govenment is knowingly funding terrorist organizations then the US really has no moral standing in going after terrorists that threaten it's own people.

One a side note however the US did actually fund Al Queda through groups in this country. And the pilots that flew the planes into the buildings on 9/11 were trained right here in the US. Unfortunately this is the price of living in a free society. Sometimes bad people will exploit it for doing bad things. Just something everyone living in a free society has to deal with.

If it's a known fact as you say then I want to know why the US govenment hasn't shut it down like they have so many other front organizations that operate here and fund terrorism around the globe. I guess it just puzzles me as to why the US govenment wouldnt do this for one of their greatest allies in the world. It's quite confusing to me.

X

[OrdinaryGuy]

Originally posted by plenderj
We're not blaming the US for anything.
We're just showing that the US isn't the only country that has lost loved-ones to terrorism.

True, I agree. Take India for example. Haven't they been facing terrorism for over 2 decades? And forgive me if Im wrong, but India is probably facing the most active threat of terrorism today with Israel. Every other day someone is killed in Indian Kashmir.

What did India do about it? They didn't give a **** to what the US or the world would think. They mobilized 1 million troops on the border and got Musharraf to panic and make a bunch of promises he never kept.

Israel. What are they doing? They send the Army into Gaza after every suicide attack (something India can't do). But they are doing something. Both India and Israel are doing something about their terrorist problems. They aren't relying on any US help. True, they are only relying on the US for a diplomatic offensive against the other country, but thats all.

My point is that besides countries crying about their problems, they should tackle it. The US isn't allowing the Iraq threat to develop in the first place. They don't want a repeat of Sept. 11 again on their territory. Now just because the US is doing something about their terrorist problem, European countries gotta pounce on us.

[Arc]

Originally posted by Gaffer
Confusing? How confusing? Let me think back to some of the classic comments you have come out with over the last fortnight, and we'll see who is the confuser, and who is the confused. You were unaware of US funding of Chemical wepons to Iraq a decade ago, you came out with the all time classic "Israel is a peace loving nation", and now we have more magical moments, like "Why would the US fund the IRA".

You'll be telling me that Nixon was a "well rounded individual" next.

I think you should read some more about your history, but through sceptical specticles this time. I personally have NO problem looking at my country's history and saying "what a shower of ****s we have had running this place"

I was unaware of US funding of Chemical wepons to Iraq a decade ago? Uhh no i wasn't.. and i never said i was.. Please point me to where i said i was unaware of this fact Just making up lies on the fly now aren't yah?

Israel is a peace loving nation and i stand by that statement 100%. I stated this earlier in this very thread... I will paste it again here.

Isreal, would be very content to stay where it is and not attack or even threaten anyone. Isreal only attacks when it is being directly threatened.

If your comments are about the palestenians, well all i can say is Palenstine shouldnt have attacked Isreal. They got thier land took from them and to that i say too ****in bad for them. Isreal has been to the barganing table with them and offered to give alot of it back to them for the sake of peace, but NO they refuse! They want it all or nothing, and untill they get it ALL they will continue to send in Suicide bombers to kill innocent Isrealies. Isreal has no choice but to try and protect itself from these Terrorists.


If you want to take these actions and proclaim that Isreal is not a FREE and peace loving nation, then that just shows your totaly ignorance on the subject.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My exact quote was "Why would the U.S. fund a group of people that are terrorizing it's greatest Allie??" And it's a valid question. My Government is NOT funding the IRA. There may be some money coming from America and getting into IRA hands but it's not sponsered by my goverment.

I have no problem looking at my countries history with an open mind, becasue there really is nothing to be ashamed of, especially when you put all the good we've done on one side and the bad on the other side.. the scale is hitting the floor on the good side. America has made some questionable decisions in it's past i.e. arming IRAQ... but hindsite is always 20/20 aint it? At that time i beleive arming IRAQ was the right thing to do.

[Gaffer]

Hindsight is a wonderful attribute to have. On hindsight, perhaps the UK and US would have though twice about creating regimes in underdeveloped countries with rich resources. Perhaps they wouldn't be in the situation they are in now. Whilst Israel may be a "democractic" nation, I believe it's only democratic to the point that they have a free vote. How much influence the populace have after this is debatable. Like we are seeing with our own goveenments. We have an overwhelming majority of the UK population against war, (and this after the so called "conclusive" evidence promised by Blair/Bush), yet the PM looks like he will not hold any kind of productive debate.

[simonm]

As far as I know, America never officially sponsored the IRA although they did allow IRA to hold fund raising events in the US. Something which they don't anymore I believe.

As for israel being "100% a peace loving nation"...it's as true as that statement is ambiguous. Someone may love peace but still feel necessary to be at war.

Gaffer

We have an overwhelming majority of the UK population against war, (and this after the so called "conclusive" evidence promised by Blair/Bush), yet the PM looks like he will not hold any kind of productive debate.

AS I understood it, a majority of people would support war with UN mandate...Without, a majority would oppose it.

[Gaffer]

Originally posted by Arc
I was unaware of US funding of Chemical wepons to Iraq a decade ago? Uhh no i wasn't.. and i never said i was.. Please point me to where i said i was unaware of this fact Just making up lies on the fly now aren't yah?

Making up lies am I?

*ahem

http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...ld#post1321210

Apology?

I also find it amusing that anyone that doesn't agree with you is a moron. Don't you find it funny that many pro-warers on VBF have degraded these debates into agressive personnal mudslinging matches??

[Gaffer]

Gaffer

AS I understood it, a majority of people would support war with UN mandate...Without, a majority would oppose it. [/B]

True. And the 2nd UN mandate's importance to BushBlair is...?

[simonm]

Gaffer

True. And the 2nd UN mandate's importance to BushBlair is...?

Well, I would imagine that it's more important to Blair than it it is to Bush, mainly because the majority of people in America now support the case for war with or without a 2nd mandate.

[Gaffer]

Blair has basically come out and said "We will do everything through the UN, unless we don't agree with them". /shrugs

Arc. Hey Arc, where are you man? You got some moron-ass-kissing to do here...