Let's oust George W Bush Jr

[honeybee]

Because he isn't capable of being president of the US, and all the dangerous weaponry held by the US military might be used against innocent civilians in other countries if he stays in power. We should have a regime change in the US. If, however, GWB wishes to be self-exiled into Mexico or maybe some remote place like Uganda, we shall be happy to let him go peacefully.

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[honeybee]

Yes. He is as bad as Saddam. Get rid of them both. Regime Change in Iraq and the US.

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[BodwadUK]

The fact that you seem to have some vendetta against GWB and America has nothing to do with it then???


Arent you in India????

[NotLKH]

HB has been obsessed with bashing the US and Bush forever.
Every chance HB has, its "Bush is Stupid", "Bush is Dumb", "The US is power mad", yada yada yada.

HB, have you ever been in the US?

-Lou

[KayJay]

I don't often venture into this neck of the woods. But having ventured............

My rant to follow...........

[Wally Pipp]

It may be hard to believe but I do think he's being funny here.

[KayJay]

The fact that you seem to have some vendetta against GWB and America has nothing to do with it then???

Arent you in India????

Not only in this thread, but everywhere else this subject crops up, so I have noticed, any evaluation and/or discussion is primarily based on the speakers' nationality (rather his residency). The last statement in the above and similar quotes is a non-issue, epecially in this day and age where not only information but even emotions are freely exchanged across the globe.

The current situation in West Asia (US-IRAQ situation included) is a classic case of history repeating itself. Almost all civilzations/nations/peoples across our earth and across time, the Mauryas, Guptas, the Chinese Dynasties, Romans, Greeks, Huns, Egyptians, Incas, Japanese, and lately, the European Nation States, have had at some time or other ventured to assert a political dominance over their geographically close neighbours and economic domination over more distant ones. And the borders are much nearer today.

And so it is the turn now of the new kid on the block. The US of A. Like all Frankensteins, the US of A was not invented (yes, it was a conscious invention by our forefathers. A deliberate formation of a group of indviduals and unique societies, as opposed to a chance and slow co-mingling of cultures. The US of A was formed and more importantly grew with a purpose.) with an explicit purpose of becoming a Frankenstein, as we now use that term. And like all Frankensteins, unfortunately, it is perpetually in danger of becoming one. Granted, every child must have a chance to cut its teeth and find its purpose in life on its own, but it also has a duty of learning from its elders' experience.

So the anger one feels towards the US of A and the attitude of GWB and his like is born out of fear and dare I say horror. Why should we have another Imperial phase? That is the question every opponent of the current move towards war is asking. It begs the question, "Is it not true that the only thing we learn from History is that we do not learn from History"

It is a moot point to argue that the US of A is not involved in West Asia for economic or political reasons. Whatever the reason and its validity, the end is predetermined. That Saddam Hussein is capabale of Mass Murder and Genocide and that is the reason why the US of A needs to take a tough stand to secure its and the world's safety, is correct, right and absolutely laudable. Yet, we have seen over and over and over again, that when a Soveriegn Nation of the day indulges, influences and executes policies in another Sovereign Nation nation of that day, be it economic, financial, political and/or social policies, the end is always in bloodshed, war and the Winner takes all. Always. The East India Company just wanted to buy cotton, you know. GWB in the name of the US of A just wants to punish a criminal, U know.

So any talk of war by a powerful nation over another nation (powerful or not, it does not matter) is bound to anger many people. An anger that is born out of frustration, screaming, RTFM MAN!. You cannot deny history nor can you avoid its consequences. Learn from your forefathers. And guess what, you can learn from mine as well.

Regards

KayJay

[honeybee]

Originally posted by NotLKH
HB has been obsessed with bashing the US and Bush forever.
Every chance HB has, its "Bush is Stupid", "Bush is Dumb", "The US is power mad", yada yada yada.

HB, have you ever been in the US?

-Lou

No offence meant by all those comments, so if you have been offended by some comments of mine, please accept my apologies. All my such comments should be viewed in the context of the decisions which the US government takes with respect to the rest of the world. As far as the internal matters of the US go, I don't care whether there's a GWB at the helm or Bill Clinton.


It's actually much fun trying to talk sense to some of the Yankees here obsessed with the idea of destroying Iraq. This thread is supposed to provoke them further. If you are a generally peace-loving and "live and let live" type you can ignore this thread.

Lou, I respect the US as a soverign nation, so just because I have not been to US, I wouldn't try to pass some derogatory remarks on the US, or for that part any other nation. But .... Well, I think I have said all above.

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[honeybee]

Originally posted by Wally Pipp
It may be hard to believe but I do think he's being funny here.

You are not being fair to me, are you?

KayJay, that was a beautiful piece

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[BodwadUK]

Not only in this thread, but everywhere else this subject crops up, so I have noticed, any evaluation and/or discussion is primarily based on the speakers' nationality (rather his residency). The last statement in the above and similar quotes is a non-issue, epecially in this day and age where not only information but even emotions are freely exchanged across the globe.

I am merely stating that no person from outside of any given county has the right to critisise a countries choice of leader, I am in the UK and dont like GWB in my opinion he is not fit for the job but my opinions should mean nothing to America. I think it is countries fiddling with politics of another country that causes most of this upset???

Because i dont live there i wont judge the democratic rights of any countries choice of leader!!!!

Thats why i asked the question

Arent you in India????

[KayJay]

Originally posted by honeybee
You are not being fair to me, are you?

KayJay, that was a beautiful piece

.

Thanx

[honeybee]

Originally posted by BodwadUK
I am merely stating that no person from outside of any given county has the right to critisise a countries choice of leader, I am in the UK and dont like GWB in my opinion he is not fit for the job but my opinions should mean nothing to America. I think it is countries fiddling with politics of another country that causes most of this upset???

Because i dont live there i wont judge the democratic rights of any countries choice of leader!!!!

Thats why i asked the question

I think I made it sufficiently clear that I don't have any problems with GWB or any other person heading the US as long as the US government kept its nose out of other countries' affairs. And I think nobody else could have any problems with him too.

I am judging GWB from the decisions he takes that affect my country, directly and indirectly. So, now do you recognize my freedom to criticize him/his policies? If so, can you get on with the main point of the thread and give me your valuable opinion?

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[venerable bede]

BOLLOCKS

Go for it George. Bomb bagdad and while your at it maybe a stray missile could hit mecca.

And while your at it maybe you could bomb Sunderland as well.

[Pc_Madness]

I think every government has the right to put its nose into its neighbours business if its a thread to its nation interests, be it civilian, diplomatic, econmic, or military.

Secondly, India I do believe has been trying to provoke Pakistan into yet another war, by doing tests of its Nuclear delievery systems. Don't go critiscising other nations when yours is just as bad!.

[KayJay]

BodwadUK: I disagree, for almost the same reason as HoneyBee, though, my shout would be more like Socrates. "I am a citizen of this world".

As to Ur original post HoneyBee:

No, a regime change in the US is not preferrable. GWB is not that much of a danger to the world, just an major irritant in our day to day affairs. A complete overhaul ("Regime Change") of that oxymoron they call their US Foreign Office, yes. Not GWB. I really think he is what Americans deserve.

What Americans want, they Deserve. What Americans want, always get. They got GWB.

QED

[venerable bede]

I love India.

There is no point in bombing Pakistan. It's such a rat infested craphole populated by incestual monkeys that it would be a waste of of good explosives.

Why not bomb Europe.
Your much more likely of killing Muslims there.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by Pc_Madness
I think every government has the right to put its nose into its neighbours business if its a thread to its nation interests, be it civilian, diplomatic, econmic, or military.

Secondly, India I do believe has been trying to provoke Pakistan into yet another war, by doing tests of its Nuclear delievery systems. Don't go critiscising other nations when yours is just as bad!.

OK, I can say that comment about India's nuclear tests is half ignorant because obviously you are not in India and so don't know how we feel about Pakistan. However, I do want to ask you what gives you the thought that India is trying to "provoke" Pakistan into a war? India has made it clear numerous times that it abides by the No-First-Use policy about nukes, and I don't think it ever threatened a nuke attack on Pakistan, as against Mian Musharraf's remarks and threats of "keeping all options open". Whatever India has been doing, it has been doing in a very responsible manner. It didn't indulge in any secret trade of missiles for getting the nuclear technology. I think most of the technology has been developed by our own scientists, and whatever foreign help we did obtain came from the former USSR by way of agreements which the entire world knows. I think I can say I am proud about the nuclear tests because although they do act as a deterrant, India has never made an issue of it. Did you ever wonder why the US didn't impose economic and other sanctions on India after our nuke tests?

I don't mind nations guarding their own interests, but then the developed nations shouldn't go forming cartels against the developing ones. The anti-dumping case is a recent example of how the developed nations are exploiting the developing nations.

So before you call India bad for its nuke tests, get your own facts right. Or till you get them right, don't call us bad.

Do you know that we did the first nuclear tests right under the US satellites' nose? Even these satellites could not find out we had carried out the tests And we could have simply finished off Pakistan had we wanted to use the nukes for destructive purposes.

Also you seem to be unaware of the fact that the Indian government has recently formed a security council precisely to avoid any whimsical or arbitrary use of the nukes.

I don't wanna say it, but your statements are a load of bulls hit.

.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by KayJay
No, a regime change in the US is not preferrable. GWB is not that much of a danger to the world, just an major irritant in our day to day affairs. A complete overhaul ("Regime Change") of that oxymoron they call their US Foreign Office, yes. Not GWB. I really think he is what Americans deserve.

I didn't mean it seriously. I just want to know why we should not seek a regime change in the US for similar reasons as in Iraq.

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[KayJay]

Oh!, But I do.

I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that the "State Dept " handles international affairs.!

[venerable bede]

Pakistan is in envy of India. Thats why they have a chip on there shoulder like most of the Islamic world.

India is open minded, progressive and tolerant. Pakistan is corrupt and idle.

The worrying thing is that I can see India becoming more influential in the world while Pakistan sinks into decline. I'm worried that Pakistan will lash out.

I'll put my money on Gnesh. Mohamed fights like a girl.

[honeybee]

Originally posted by KayJay
Oh!, But I do.

I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that the "State Dept " handles international affairs.!

It's their internal matter, which department should handle what

.

[Pc_Madness]

Originally posted by honeybee

Do you know that we did the first nuclear tests right under the US satellites' nose? Even these satellites could not find out we had carried out the tests And we could have simply finished off Pakistan had we wanted to use the nukes for destructive purposes.

Also you seem to be unaware of the fact that the Indian government has recently formed a security council precisely to avoid any whimsical or arbitrary use of the nukes.

I don't wanna say it, but your statements are a load of bulls hit.

.

Firstly, are u certain there were satellites spying on your country? Also, the use of a nuclear device sends shockwave across a large geographic area, so anyone with any kind of earthquake measurement devices would pick it up.

Secondly, is it 3 or 4 wars with Pakistan? How many times I wonder, was it u guys that started it? Also, what about the build up about a year back because of trouble over "Pakistani Terrorists" doing attacks inside india. Let my say, if that was a border build up, then... I do believe there were more attacks during this time...

Unaware about a council?? There should always have been a council, hell, there shouldn't have been a need for a council. You shouldn't/don't need nuclear weapons in the first place.

Also, out of curosity, do u know if India has nuclear weapson aimed at Pakistan? I do believe the system for most nations is that all Nuclear delievery systems a preprogrammed to crash into the sea, until they are given a target, interesting to see if this "council" has thought about that...

The only countries which need/should have Nuclear weapons are the US, Russia and the Former USSER, and Britain, all being carried over from the Cold War, and all of which are being scaled down. Yet you guys see the need to build more?


Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, both India and Pakistan are a bunch of chokes with their heads cut off, who are to busy wasting money on building defencisive/offensive weaponary, when it could be better spent on civilian issuse.

[KayJay]

Originally posted by Pc_Madness
Firstly, are u certain there were satellites spying on your country? Also, the use of a nuclear device sends shockwave across a large geographic area, so anyone with any kind of earthquake measurement devices would pick it up.

Secondly, is it 3 or 4 wars with Pakistan? How many times I wonder, was it u guys that started it? Also, what about the build up about a year back because of trouble over "Pakistani Terrorists" doing attacks inside india. Let my say, if that was a border build up, then... I do believe there were more attacks during this time...

Unaware about a council?? There should always have been a council, hell, there shouldn't have been a need for a council. You shouldn't/don't need nuclear weapons in the first place.

Also, out of curosity, do u know if India has nuclear weapson aimed at Pakistan? I do believe the system for most nations is that all Nuclear delievery systems a preprogrammed to crash into the sea, until they are given a target, interesting to see if this "council" has thought about that...

The only countries which need/should have Nuclear weapons are the US, Russia and the Former USSER, and Britain, all being carried over from the Cold War, and all of which are being scaled down. Yet you guys see the need to build more?


Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, both India and Pakistan are a bunch of chokes with their heads cut off, who are to busy wasting money on building defencisive/offensive weaponary, when it could be better spent on civilian issuse.

I would have agree with the last paragraph (but for the chokes with theor heas cutoff bit) had U said noone need have weapons of mass destructions.

[KayJay]

Unfortunately, you are one of the very same chokes with your had already cut-off who believes that term "International - " with all of its hyphenated suffixes should restricted to an area of the world West of Jerusalem.

[Wally Pipp]

Any progress on those moon habitats yet ?

[Pc_Madness]

The only countries which need/should have Nuclear weapons are the US, Russia and the Former USSER, and Britain, all being carried over from the Cold War, and all of which are being scaled down. Yet you guys see the need to build more?

Sorry, by this comment I meant that the only nations who should have them right now, are those nations, due to the huge build up during the Cold War. All of nations should have zero, and in time, so will the above nations, if all others keep there stocks at 0.

[KayJay]

Agreed and Motion Passed.

[Pc_Madness]

Yay, does this mean I get pie?

[BodwadUK]

Many developing countries cause their own problems and its all down to nuclear weapons!!! They arent cheap and when aid is sent from a gevernment to another third world government it rarely reaches the people but ends up in ideas to erradicate the enemy.


While one side has seen the damage and tries to scale down the other is seeing it as an escape and method of destroying their enemys they have no fear of them (Not enough anyway) and so builds them with no regard for the consequences!!!!


Imagine if a nuke hadnt been dropped on Japan and then you can probably see there is a much higher chance that humanity was wiped out!!!!

OK, I can say that comment about India's nuclear tests is half ignorant because obviously you are not in India and so don't know how we feel about Pakistan. However, I do want to ask you what gives you the thought that India is trying to "provoke" Pakistan into a war? India has made it clear numerous times that it abides by the No-First-Use policy about nukes, and I don't think it ever threatened a nuke attack on Pakistan, as against Mian Musharraf's remarks and threats of "keeping all options open". Whatever India has been doing, it has been doing in a very responsible manner. It didn't indulge in any secret trade of missiles for getting the nuclear technology. I think most of the technology has been developed by our own scientists, and whatever foreign help we did obtain came from the former USSR by way of agreements which the entire world knows. I think I can say I am proud about the nuclear tests because although they do act as a deterrant, India has never made an issue of it. Did you ever wonder why the US didn't impose economic and other sanctions on India after our nuke tests?

Ok so that makes it right for two sides who hate one another to build nukes!!! When one side of an obvious conflict aquires such power the other is bound to follow, do you really want to see something like the Cuban Missile crises happen again???? That was about nukes and America and USSR, the world was on the edge of collapse and now India and pakistan are starting it again!!!



Its true almost all countries are reducing their stocks of nukes with exception of countries like Iraq, India, Pakistan, North Korea etc. These countries are not following suit but going the other way, so of course its gonna be brown trouser time in the west!!

[Wally Pipp]

Taken the yellow pills again ?

[Nightwalker83]

Let's oust George W Bush Jr

OMG not another one

George Bush's middle initail wasn't W was it?

[Pc_Madness]

Just saw this map on CNN, and I thought it was seriously cool


http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/ira...ndex.iraq.html

[honeybee]

Originally posted by BodwadUK

Ok so that makes it right for two sides who hate one another to build nukes!!! When one side of an obvious conflict aquires such power the other is bound to follow, do you really want to see something like the Cuban Missile crises happen again???? That was about nukes and America and USSR, the world was on the edge of collapse and now India and pakistan are starting it again!!!

Its true almost all countries are reducing their stocks of nukes with exception of countries like Iraq, India, Pakistan, North Korea etc. These countries are not following suit but going the other way, so of course its gonna be brown trouser time in the west!!

You have to prove India is developing nuclear power for the sole purpose of building nuclear weapons. Else you are insulting my country. I know for a fact that India has developed nuclear power for constructive purposes. And mind you, India is actually capable of and is putting the nuclear power to constructive use. I don't think Pakistan or North Korea would have the infrastructure or the economic and political stability to use the nuclear power for constructive uses. So don't put India in the same league as Pakistan or N Korea.

Even if we choose to believe that countries such as the US are reducing their nukes, their stocks of nuclear weapons are probably many times those of India. So that point is quite irrelevant here.

Also remember that the US has been constantly adopting the policy of refusing advanced technology to India especially under the name of security. It happened with the cryogenic engines used for launching rockets. India doesn't need your assistance in this field, thank God. We have developed our own cryogenic engines and are capable of launching satellites into the space ourselves. That's an example to the US that India wants to use its abilities for the right causes.

.

[Pc_Madness]

No-one mentions nuclear power, so don't change the subject here.


The US and Russia are allowed to have such levels, because of the situations in the past. Now they are still under direct threat, yet they choose to lower their stocks anyway. India and Pakistan are just so pathetic that they can't fight a war the good old fashioned way.

Nuclear Weapons have no purpose, people are to afraid to use them, and people are to afraid to act in fear of them. Fighting a war the old fashioned way is the best option, and atleast it could minimise civilian casulties to some extent.

India builds nuclear weapons. Don't u ever worry about what will happen if Pakistan decieds to attack/return fire?? Hell of alot more people in India than Pakistan.

[Nightwalker83]

The US and Russia are allowed to have such levels, because of the situations in the past. Now they are still under direct threat, yet they choose to lower their stocks anyway. India and Pakistan are just so pathetic that they can't fight a war the good old fashioned way.

Please don't get HB started on this again.

[Pc_Madness]

Pfft, but wheres the fun in that?

[Nightwalker83]

Originally posted by Pc_Madness
Pfft, but wheres the fun in that?

Ok but don't say I didn't warn you

[BodwadUK]

Ok so even if India isnt doing it for 'the sole purpose' of creating nuclear bombs, you still have some!!!

Yes nuclear power is very useful for commercial purposes and i know India has used it for this but i also recall you saying you did have nuclear weapons!

Oh and if i wanted to insult you in that way i would have said "India Is Fu***** mad creating nukes to destroy the world" but i didnt say that i said you had some and you cant deny that can you????

You have to look at the past and see that building up nuclear weapons is a mistake because of the problems that can occur, yes you have more powerful weapons now than when you didnt have the nukes but your enemys have them as well so all you have now is a recipe for dissaster imagine if Japan or Germany also had nuclear weapons at the end of the war!!!!!

I don't think Pakistan or North Korea would have the infrastructure or the economic and political stability to use the nuclear power for constructive uses. So don't put India in the same league as Pakistan or N Korea.

Dont underestimate these countries after all you cant prove that they cant use nuclear power for commercial use!!!!


Its also a well known fact the world over that India and Pakistan dont get on very well so what do you think people are going to say when you both suddenly make nuclear weapons???


Reduction is a process that is required to reduce them to 0, the cold war saw huge amounts of nuclear bombs produced now they are being reduced you cant expect them all to vanish overnight it needs time, in the meantime however countries like India (Sorry I am going to do it again), pakistan and North Korea are building their arsenals up!

Given the facts in your opinion HB what is an exeptable amount of nuclear weapons per country????

[Wally Pipp]

Whoa, my double standards detector went waaaay in the red again ...

[BodwadUK]

lol i think its broken then!!!!!