C++.net compared to C# and C++

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Is C++.net more similar to C++ than C# is?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of them?

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 10th, 2003, 02:59 PM

hmm think of C# as a VB.NET with another skin...they are the same...
there are too c++'s in .NET:
managed and unmanaged code:
unmanaged c++ is the same as vc6++...
managed c++ is vc6++ with the framework.

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:09 PM

I would like to study the most powerful and versatile language I can. I know that each language has it's purpose but I want the most versatile.

For example, I want to build web applications like php does and yet be able to make my own self running exe's to distribute without the framework. What I mean by that is I don't want to limit my customer range to people who have the framework.

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:32 PM

then go to delphi (virtually no runtimes), vb6(some run-times but most ppl have them) or c++ (virtually no run-times)...but look out! c++ has a "big" learning curve specially if u dont have any programming experience and takes a lot more time to make an app in c++ than in another language...ah and u can use java that (i am not sure) but has small or no runtimes

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:38 PM

What is a runtime and what is so bad about it?

**kovan** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:43 PM

run times are required files installed EXCLUDING ur own code
.net framework is the runtime for all .NET apps.
vb6 has runtime files (u need to include a dll to run ur app)

like PT suggested, go with delphi or c++ if you want NO runtime worries..(and not MFC part of c++ i mean the core of it)

in the next few years, .net frameowrk will be guranteed to be on all pc's that have windows in them (new ones)

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:52 PM

I have been studying C++ for the past 2 weeks and I like it but I just wanted to make sure I am not making a mistake.

I have a goal to make a web page with forms on it to submit information to me or to the server and I was thinking I could not do that with C++ but I may be able to with C++ or C#.

I have heard that you can make applications without the .net framework with C# but I will be tempted to use the .net stuff.

I want a do-everything language or close to it and I was thinking that C++.net would be the closest but if I always need the .net framework for people to run my apps it is no use.

**kovan** · Jan 10th, 2003, 03:57 PM

if thats ur only goal, u would mis-use c++
the job u need done can be done in with different things.. things that are made for this

ASP (or ASP.NET)
JSP
PHP
or CGI
why go clearn crazy languages to do simple things?

but c++ is used for games, drivers and robust enterprize apps

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 04:06 PM

I think I would like to make a game some day too. Can C++.net or C# do it all, almost?

**kovan** · Jan 10th, 2003, 04:14 PM

c++.net is a enhanced version of c++ (what ever c++ can do. c++.net can do it and more)

directX 9 microsofts biggest game driver was optimized for .NET
so in the future i wouldnt be suprised if all games get written in c++.net and c#

.net is the greatest thing for programmers..
just give it few years until it 'catches' on

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 04:28 PM

I guess C++.net will be my choice. How hard is it to learn compared to C++ and can I get good begginners books? I know very little about C++ so far.

And why all the hype about C#?

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 10th, 2003, 04:52 PM

hmm kovan i dont think that at least for now we'll see games in C++.NET...C++.NET performance i think is still worse than c++'s...and i dont understand the c++.net point...because it is not as fast as pure c++, it needs runtimes(the no runtimes is which ppl LOVE in c++)...and framework functions can be access thoutgh api...i really dont get it lol

**kovan** · Jan 10th, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by PT Exorcist
hmm kovan i dont think that at least for now we'll see games in C++.NET...C++.NET performance i think is still worse than c++'s...and i dont understand the c++.net point...because it is not as fast as pure c++, it needs runtimes(the no runtimes is which ppl LOVE in c++)...and framework functions can be access thoutgh api...i really dont get it lol

when .net framework is built into windows kernel i wouldnt be suprised of .net out performs c++

am not talking now.. (now its CRAP)
if ms lives up to its promise of optimized .net framework for every hard configuration .. so i read some where when there were first rumors of something called .NET

anyways lets wait to see how .net built into kernel works.. should see that soon since servers are coming out..

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 05:50 PM

Do you know the answers to the questions above?

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 10th, 2003, 05:51 PM

yea kovan i too believe that when .net is into kernel it will be as fast as a c++ app...thats why i said "hmm kovan i dont think that at least for now "

**kovan** · Jan 10th, 2003, 05:59 PM

all the hype about c#?
its ms and its main purpose was to a competition language for java. the syntax is 'IDENTICAL' to c++
just the idea is different and it gives more options in .NET

ms made c# cus no professional programmer would use vb (thats the myth anyways)
and c++ is to hard and too time consuming for professional programmers..
so ms mad c# to say "ease of vb, and power of c++"
to get people to use it

i was developing in vb for 5 years.. when i saw c# (i did some dev in c++)
i automatically jumped at it and tried to learn it..
i guess i bought into the idea of c# is the language to stick with..

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 10th, 2003, 06:32 PM

hmm..yea...MS is saying power of c++ but it is b*llsh*t...it is pure vb style code lol...

**aewarnick** · Jan 10th, 2003, 08:06 PM

1 What is the windows kernel?

2 What do you mean by C++ being too hard and time consuming for professional programmers?

3 With C# could I make a side scrolling 2d game like a nintendo game pretty easily?

4 Can I create a good form creation program with C# as posted here: http://discussions.virtualdr.com/sho...hreadid=125903
It would not have to be html. It might be better if it was a form type created and used only with my program.

5. Could I create a really good program better than this one:
Pictures toExe

**PT Exorcist** · Jan 11th, 2003, 09:20 AM

hmmm...do u have any programming experience?
anyways i dont think that the best thing to do is learn a language to make a better program than that! u're goin finding urself only to want to learn the things needed to make a better program that than..things dont work like that :\

c++ is "hard" because u have to code a lot and u have to know a lot about how the system works.

and u can do about everything with c++, c#, vb.net, delphi, java and vb6...

edit: now i saw what that program does and what looks to me is create run-time the exe but .NET framework allows it trough the System.Reflection.Emit namespace..

**aewarnick** · Jan 11th, 2003, 12:34 PM

How much of the system works do I have to know to use C#.net and please don't forget the other questions.

**CornedBee** · Jan 11th, 2003, 01:26 PM

*sigh*

Let's see:
Delphi and C++: Languages compiled to native code. Use little or no runtimes.

C#, VB.Net: Languages compiled to MSIL byte code. Need the .Net framework.

C++.Net: An extension (not improvement) to C++ which allows parts of the app to be compiled as native code and parts as MSIL. Allows those parts to work seamlessly and transparently (to the programmer) together. Main use is connecting .Net apps with native components. Large parts of the .Net framework were written in C++.Net.

The advantages of the first two are speed, portability(sometimes) and independence.
The advantages of the other two are ease of use, speed of development and portability without having to recompile (when the mono project is successful).

C++.Net has a few features of C++ taken away (in the managed parts) in order to comply with the CLS specification. On the other hand it doesn't have the ease of use of C# or VB/VB.Net. It's not a language really intended for application development.

DirectX 9 is not optimized for .Net. It is still optimized for speed because that's what the programmers want. DX9 is available to .Net which means there is a wrapper that exposes the functionality to .Net, just like the VB wrapper for DX7+8. This layer takes a little time to execute. It is very little, but it is there. Also managed languages will never reach the speed of highly optimized native code, not even if the .Net functionality should be embedded into the windows kernel. Commercial games will always be mostly written in C++ until a better language that compiles to native code comes along (see the C -> C++ transition).
I would be very surprised if I saw any commercial games written in Managed C++ or C#.

aewarnick:
First, your goal is a bad one. There is no universal language, and if there was it would suck. It's better to learn 3 specialized languages than 1 that sucks at doing everything. Learn PHP and JavaScript for internet things, C# for rapid development of small business apps and C++ when you need speed or have a really large project. The basic syntax is the same for all four, so you'll have an easy time learning them once you know one.

Second, the choice of C++.Net is a bad one too. It offers neither advantage of C++ or C#.

Third, your 5 questions:
1) Each operating system has a kernel. The kernel is the heart of the OS. It does things like thread scheduling, process, resource and memory managing, controls device drivers, access rights and hardware access.
Built on the kernel are other parts, like a GUI or advanced internet services. WinXP has IMO too much of that, which is the reason it requires so much RAM.

2) C++ is a language where you have to do most things yourself. You have no garbage collection watching your memory use, integer overflows go completly unnoticed. Stray pointers can easily crash your app. Things like that.
Also one statement of C# (or similar langagues) code is likely to be the equivalent of several C++ statements.
In effect, developing applications with C++ takes longer than with other languages. But the resulting apps run faster and are usually smaller. This is the reason why the commercial apps are developed in C++ while business apps are developed in other languages.
But I don't think C++ is too hard or time consuming for professional programmers. If it were so then there wouldn't be any C++ programmers anymore.
3) Well... Games are never easy. A side-scrolling game like the old Nintendo games is easier than other kinds of games. It also doesn't require much processing power, so that you can easily develop it in C# or even slower languages (Java, Flash ActionScript - C# is actually pretty fast). But you can't develop the game easily. You still need to know a lot about the language and API (probably DirectX) you are using. And I think that various parts of C# that are intended to make programming easier and less prone to bugs might prove a hindrance when writing a game.
But yeah, you can do it.
4,5) Yes and yes if you know your language and your other assets (tools, APIs, the .Net framework, ...) well and you are willing to put time and effort into it. And you need to know how to write something better than what is available.

**aewarnick** · Jan 11th, 2003, 01:42 PM

Thank you very much, corned bee!

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