disadvantage of VB.Net

[sukber81]

Hi there can anyone give me some disadvantge of VB.Net which is new in the market..Can someone please tell why is not good or if its good what are the advantages. Im doing some research on this and i need some feedback from users who are using a Vb.net .Thank you all who send some of their opinion..
Thanks all
Cheers

[hellswraith]

I mainly use C#, but can easily switch inbetween C# and VB.Net. They are both .Net languages, so it is basically the same.

The real disadvantage with developing in .Net is the framework issue. The framework is a love/hate relationship with the developers. On one hand, it is awesome because of the power it provides us, but on the other hand, the client computers need the framework to run our apps. Just like VB6 needed the vb runtimes, .Net apps require the framework. The problem is that it is around 20 MB. Users don't want to download it, and developers don't want to distribute it. The good thing is MS has put the framework on the Windows Update pages, so that helps out a lot as long as users are updating windows....which unfortunately, isn't often enough. I think this issue will die down as more and more people install the framework.

The advantages far outweight the framework issue, in my opinion. They are numerous, and you can find all the benifits on MS's site where they are trying to promote the Visual Studio .Net product.

[MikeHost]

Ditto the above comments...

Aside from the framework issue, another disadvantage with .net is having to learn a new platform. Even if you are familiar with VB6... VB.net is almost (not quite) like starting from the beginning. But, the scope of the problems that .net fixes is well worth the effort.

On the flip side, I find that ASP.net is much easier to learn and work with the classic ASP.

[DSAINMON]

I think .net is the greatest thing to hit the programming world. I've been writing some code in VB.net and c++ .net is it is so much better. The .net framework classes alone make it worthwhile. You can do so much more in VB than before. Plus I'm able to easily convert and use my c++ classes in a VB program.

Yeah, the whole framwork thing is a bit of a drawback, but eventually every computer will have .net so its only a temporary problem. Plus the next versions of .net will be even better!!

[RvA]

Hello sukber81,

I have been been coding in VB since version 4 and I can tell you this much. I swore I would not go to .Net. Just the thought of relearning VB yet again really had me bent.

But as the world turns so do the paying jobs, and they wanted a .Net product.... so, there I was looking down the barrel of .Net anyway. Now that I have bitten the bullet and put the rotten leaning curve behind me, I will never look back at VB6.0 again.

Nuff said........

[steve_rm]

Hello

Just reading all your replies on the framework issue, but l am unsure what this framework means. Can anyone tell me what the frame work is, and how it is a disadvantage to vb.net in easy terms.

Many thanks in advance

[ethanwa]

I think .NET is an awesome attempt at Mircosoft to make things easier for programmers and I think it's working. The MAIN problem is the distribution of the .NET Framework.

I'm VERY surprised that it's not included with WindowXP Service Pack 1 and is NOT a critical update on the Windows Update site. I think .NET is essential to running apps of the future, especially on WinXP and above. My major reason for waiting to go to .NET was because of this, but I realize now that if I continue to hold off learning it I'll be left behind.

The .NET Framework v1.1 Final will be integrated in with the Windows.NET 2003 Server OS's. My hope is that they decide to include 1.1 in XP Service Pack 2 in the Fall/Winter of 2003.

Just be patient and learn as much as you can now. Once everyone has the framework, we'll all be one step ahead of everyone else (meaning better pay at our jobs, haha!)

-- Ethan --

[Pirate]

forget about it . Whenever MS is mentioned , disadvantages are coming out .

[MarkusJ_NZ]

Here is a real life story one of the advantages of .net.

Recently, I was given a job of creating an application that allowed people to alter/ edit/ delete information in a database. So, i quite happily made the app in VB.Net and everyone was happy.

The next week, I was approached to make the application available over the Internet for people who work offsite. Now in the days of VB6 this would have made me tear my hair out (The site where they wanted the site hosted did not allow COM objects to be registered unless they were approved! read $$$$$).

But, because I had created the application in VB.Net all my components stayed the same and all I effectively had to do was just create a new GUI for the application. I did this (ASP.Net) and uploaded the new site and everyone thought I was a genius

Total time to recreate application, less than four hours.

I like VB.Net because it's easy to create reusable objects, you do not have to go through dll hell anymore and converting apps to web based applications is too easy.

Just my 2 cents
Cheers
MarkusJ

[Pirate]

you're prouding of yourself that you're doing with that project.So well done.

open your eye and mind and Look at MS website and count how many bug fixes did they release??
they are competiting with time just to release a product just in time without cares of the fatal errors they're making.

[hellswraith]

Originally posted by pirate
you're prouding of yourself that you're doing with that project.So well done.

open your eye and mind and Look at MS website and count how many bug fixes did they release??
they are competiting with time just to release a product just in time without cares of the fatal errors they're making.

You keep knocking MS about their products, but you continue to use their languages?....anyway, are all of your apps bug free? Are any of your apps even half the size of MS apps? Do you have millions of people using your apps finding things you didn't even think of? Even Linux has many, many bug fixes. Only the smallest programs can ever to strive to be completely bug free. As your apps grow in size, so does the bug amount. Even car manufactures have to do recalls on cars because they didn't get it completely right the first time.

TIME IS ESSENTIAL when you are trying to turn a profit as a business. Every hour your application isn't on the market is money lost (in a business sense).

[Pirate]

OK OK , I don't know what's wrong with you guys.If one can't answer a thread , then he just fires up others in a way or another to defend MS.
I still continue to use their languages , simply because they monopolize peoples,OSs,Companies, Langs. No chance for others to show their intelligence and strength.

I am not professional as MS developers to make my app free bugs
but
Writing code is just a hobby .When I try to program any app the first thing I keep in mind is to make my app free bugs .If I couldn't , I never use it nor give it to anyone .Delete it .
I am not a company and I don't have to let millions of people to use my app.I work for my own.just hobby hellswraith.

[hellswraith]

I am not trying to get in a war or anything, it just seems that a lot of people have been bashing .Net and MS lately. I am just trying to put perspective on things. Nothing against you personally.

[Pirate]

sleep at Peace hellswraith then .
I didn't talk about .NET yet because I didn't get into it that much.
But , without criticism life is nothing .
pirate

[Shaggy Hiker]

Along the lines of bugs, I have read a study that stated that good commercial programs generally ship with about one bug per 100 lines of code. The study also said that the very best, large, programming projects (the example they used was the code for the space shuttle) is about 10 times better, which means one bug per 1000 lines of code.

I believe that a program in the few hundred lines can be written bug free. A program in the few thousand lines will be bug free after only a modest amount of testing. A program in the tens of thousands of lines will not be bug free until there has been lots and lots of testing (generally by the end users). A program in the 100s of thousands of lines will never be bug free during its usable life.

My gripe with Microsoft (I have family working there, so I gripe fairly quietly) is that they keep changing things around before all the bugs are worked out. I understand that there has to be revenue, but I really wish that they would stay on one line until they are selling a heavily tested, robust, piece of software.

On the other hand, I have actually enjoyed the times that I tracked a bug back to them

[PT Exorcist]

its much faster to be the ppl to catch the bugs and then make bugfixes than being the MS itself catching them..they'd take 1000x more

[Redth]

Seems a lot of people bash the .NET movement lately... i think in many cases this is simply because they are not educated about it. When i first heard of .NET, it was big, confusing, and very ambiguous to me. I had no real idea of what it actually was, and what it meant... because of this, i bashed it, and vowed to go a different route. At this time i was dealing with mostly web app's so i wanted to switch to php.

I don't know how or why i stuck with ASP, but i did, and then i learned some asp.net, and i liked it more and more as i learned more and more...

And now, i wouldn't go anywhere else. I personally like the idea of a framework... it makes sense... and i like the idea of using many languages that can all accomplish the same task, because of the clr... it's great.. i still don't know enough of it, but i'm learning, and i like it...

i think this is a good thing that microsoft has done, and i think they're slowly starting to clean up their act (a bit)... but lets face it, what people bash m$ about is mostly because they are so big... security, yes linux is more secure, but also i would say windows is more targeted, so is inevitably less secure... microsoft is big, and so they get picked on... that won't change and it shouldn't.. it keeps them having to work at it...

anyways, i won't go back to vb6... or asp 3.0 for that matter.... the .NET way is excellent for quick development, and is a lot more stable and scalable...

[hellswraith]

I agree 100%

[Rob Burgess]

Yeah .Net this .Net that...


I spent a year learning all about the .Net framework only to discover that my target audience use Win95 and don't plan to update for the next 5 years!!!!

This wasn't going to be a problem until good old M$ decided not to support the Framework on Win95. this has subsequently forced me to carry on programming in VB6!!

Yeah, I'll enjoy programming in .Net in 5 years time, but by then we'll be using Microsoft Windows FUBAR and running Visual Studio FUBAR (incidentally we'll be using the cool new language Microsoft C$$ (pronounced 'micro-soft see-dollars'), which replaces the old language that never reached it potential, like all the other languages - C#).

Adios.

[PT Exorcist]

omg if u dont like .NET dont USE IT

ms doesnt exist to make ur wishes come true, if u dont like DONT use

[Rob Burgess]

I like .Net, it's just ms are narrow-minded in not supporting Win95.

I wish I could be using it right now, but the people I'm targetting can't use it.

The thing is, it's supposed to be platform independant - but already it has imposed restrictions.

Win98 support ends in April next year and there may not be a release of the Framework version 1.1 for that os. So what happens then?

It may be ok with small time developers, but I work for a large logistics company, supporting a worldwide dealer network. I'd like to think we are the kind of people ms would like to have as customers. But, as we have to bend to our customers demands here and there, by forcing them to upgrade (not just software but hardware in most cases), the cost usually has to fall at our feet making a move .Net far to expensive to distribute.

[briancps]

G'day Pirate

I read your last posts about your opposition to MS. But most of the posts you make to this forum are of great benefit to the people who subscribe - you have obviously mastered some VB.NET techniques that I'm still trying to come to grips with.

I'm surprised to hear you are not a pro developer. if you lived in Australia I'd give you a job.

I persisted with VB.NET (Sure it's a learning curve) - I installed my first commercial application last Friday - using inherited forms for updating 10 different tables (Access DB) plus 12 Lookups and there has been no bugs -not one - everything has worked fine. - I'm surprised. Ive been developing in VB 3-.net since 1993 and this is the best it's been

sure there are some problems but let MS sort them out over a release or two (the Combo.box is a pain in the bum) but things will improve.

Every version of VB has been a quantam leap in terms of learning - lets just hope this has now stopped.

Just my thoughts

regards
BH

[PT Exorcist]

this is a good way of MS make ppl upgrade they OS...and if in ur company they are goin to persist with win95 for + 5 years that means they in 2008 will be with the win95? 13 years with the same windows? omg

[HumanCompiler]

Good point...can't make money, unless you're willing to spend money. I personally think anyone still on Win95 doesn't really even use a PC for what the rest of the world uses them for.

As for VB.NET, it's absolutely fantastic! I'm fluent in C# and VB, but prefer VB, but will program in whatever language people want. As mentioned before, that's one of the greatest things about .NET is that it doesn't really matter.

I also absolutely agree with anyone in here that said "people who hate .NET, don't understand it". I get into arguments all the time with people that think the Garbage Collector in .NET was the worst invention ever! Too bad they're exactly wrong, the GC along with another things in .NET are some of the greatest programming inventions ever and work better and more efficiently than anything out there today.

I think it's pretty safe to say though, that this is the last of the huge learning curve for quite some time as MS has spent billions and billions of dollars developing it, they're not about to replace it within the first few years.

[Pirate]

have a look at the link in this post.
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...hreadid=219247

[Amita]

Hii all!
Well .NET is really very very advanced compared to vb
But ,don,t you think it is bit slow compared to vb.
I would like to know why it is so.
bye

[PT Exorcist]

no, vb6 is much slower than .net, it only lags a bit because when u click in the exe it must use the JIT compiler to compile it to machine code, but im not sure but i think in windows .net that thing will be "fixed" because all the windows will run under the clr...am i right?

[Imogen]

"PT Exorcist"

Nice Sig....... not.. do you pay CS by any chance? Stop being a loser, lose the 3 foot high dig

[Imogen]

Originally posted by HumanCompiler
the GC along with another things in .NET are some of the greatest programming inventions ever and work better and more efficiently than anything out there today.

If thats the case then they really ought to fix it!!!!

Example:
I built an app in VB6, it uses 3.5mb in memory. Same App in vb.net uses 15.5mb in memory !!! You are telling me thats an improvement??????? rubbish!!!

I have heard it agued that this is by design and this happens because its reserving the memory that it needs continuously. OK fine I can accept that. But........... when I minimize the app them maximize it again the memory usage goes down to 3mb.

If the GC needed the memory that badly surely it would reclaim it?

I agree in priciple with the idea of the GC, but at present its too buggy.

Try explaining to a customer why his 3.5 mb Application has suddenly starting using 15.5 mb (with the latest, greatest. fastest creation from MS). You can almost hear their subconsious saying "b*llsh*t" everytime you try.

Imogen
(Lots of silly letters after name)

[PT Exorcist]

noone obligues you to use .NET, if it sucks then just dont use it

[packetVB]

PT,

How did you come to the conclusion that net runs faster than vb6?? Please explain this for me, Id like to know.

I do think net is great, but its definetly not perfected yet. The long load time due to JIT. And everytime I launch a net app my network goes active. Anyone tell me whats with that??

[PT Exorcist]

packetVb i did get to this conclusion trough 1000x posts saying that, .net also is strong in a point vb6 sucked, string manip.

[HumanCompiler]

Imogen, there are no bugs so to speak with the GC...what you're describing is exactly by design and what people have told you is true. the GC works in an extremely efficient way by gathering chunks of memory instead of exactly what it needs. If the current app has filled its current resources, then it will go grab another "chunk" (not sure of the exact number, but whatever it is, it's almost always way bigger than it needs). This makes it much faster, because it has to grab memory a lot less often.

The reason your two apps ran at such different amounts of memory again is ON PURPOSE. the GC is totally aware of it's "container" and what it's limit in memory usage is. It works under the assumption of..."take as much as you need as long as your don't go over your container's limit and nobody else needs the memory at that time." the GC only acts at key times, such as when the system is idle (or low on cpu usage), when commanded to collect back disposed objects, etc.

The definition of the app's container can be a lot of things. It could be the total system memory, it could be the app pools limit that the app pool is in, in IIS (6.0), etc...

The GC works under the theory of..."if the memory is there, use it." This makes the app MUCH, MUCH FASTER and MUCH, MUCH MORE EFFICIENT because it requests memory less often and only recollects memory when it absolutely is neccessary, such as when other apps need some of it back or when the system is idle or the programmer forced it.

I'm not an expert on the GC, but trust me, it works great and you're going to see this method continue on for a long, long time and more than likely see it be improved in the future.

PT Exorcist, JIT Compilation is not going away. This is the way .NET, Java, etc...work. Yes, it is a slight downfall, but it's one of many prices to pay for some other great features that you get and it is WAY worth it! As for this being "fixed" in the new version of Windows, that's not true. Windows .NET Server has quite a few things added to it especially for .NET efficiency such as Kernal Caching, but JIT is not going away and Windows .NET Server (nor Longhorn) is actually written in .NET. I don't believe a .NET written version of Windows is expected until Blackcomb (but I might even be wrong about that. While we're on the subject, Office will also not be rewritten in .NET for at least two more versions.

[DSAINMON]

I heard that that there is or will be a way to have the JITter work only once and save the machine code so you don't have to recompile every time you run it.

As for the GC, yeah I was surprised when I saw my little VB.net prog using 17MB of memory, but then I realized that the memory wasn't being used for anything else. It seems as if the GC is thinking "Hey, its there and no one else is using it, so I will!"

Anyway, I've been writing a somewhat large program in VB.net (about 2000 lines so far) and I definitly would not have been able to do this in VB6. VB.net has things like True OOP, Multithreading, and exception handling, not to mention all the .net classes. Yeah there are still some issues with it, but overall it is the best programming language out there.

[techgnome]

DSAINMON -- Yes, that's the way .NET works now. The first time an app is run, the cache is checked to see if there is a "pre-compiled" version. If there is, the JIT is supposed to use that copy to run from. If it isn't there, then as the JIT runs through it and compiles it, the resulting object code is put into the cache.

As for the GC -- it is far easier to get the memory now and release it later when you realize you don't need it than to compete against all other process fighting for later. Kinda like an umbrella. If there is a possibility of rain, I'd rather have it an not use it, than to not have and wished I did.

All things Wn95. The reason there won't be a framworks for Win95 -- MS doesn't support it. Personally I think that anyone on Win95 still is a noob and needs to upgrade to something better. Win95 represents the last connection of the 16bit world. In fact soon Win98 will be dropped from the supported list later in 2003. No biggie really. Think about the software you support (those of you who do)... just how long do you support a particular version before you say, "Look, you REALLY need to upgrade."??? We do that here. Our clients buy a support agreement giving them access to the latest versions as they come up. If they let the agreement lapse, well, they are USC w/o a paddle. And we cut them off. Sometimes they will come back, other times they don't. More power to them. That's all MS is doing.

Is .NET better than VB classic? Yes I think so. I love the fact that I will be able to create a form, set some proerties, then publish it to the rest of the company as the "Standard Form" for our app. Then when we need to create a new screen, inherit from that form, make changes where needed, and off we go. Our current architecture is klunky at best.
Oh, and incase any one is interested, there is now an IDE, and framework add ons that allow you to do Delphi. NET....... and I've heard rumblings that there will be a C++/# .NET IDE and framework that will run on Linux. So I don't think this is going anywhere for some time.

[Musician]

Well I love .net. I have been using it for quite a while now and I like it for all the reasons we have seen here.
Bottom line, though, is that this is Microsofts answer to Java and the Java runtime. I've seen alot of posts here from people praising the innovations of Garbage Collection which is essentially based on the Java Runtime Engine. I also read somewhere that C# was written by the guy that wrote Delphi (if I'm wrong I'm wrong).
For many years Micrsoft has taken the best ideas out there and used them under another name. It goes right back to the Visual Interface that is windows, nicked from Apple. Frankly you gotta admire this well-oiled machine that has the power to knock down any opposition out there by simply using the same idea and destroying the ones who came up with the idea through pure market power and OS dependency. I don't hang my head in shame when I use these technologies because I like them. I like to listen to the whole story though. Open source, linux, php, Apache etc. There is a very large community out there who won't touch Microsoft out of principle and I admire that, I just don't think I would still have my job if I followed their example. The sad reality of IT in the world today.
It's well worth reading up on the framework, garbage collection, jit and IL.
The framework is a collection of namespaces (dlls) that you harness when writing .net programs. You compile the program to intermediary language, which is in turn JIT'd (Just In Time'd) into native code on runtime. The garbage collector is a memory manager that regularly checks your object references, marking objects for finalization to free up memory. The only disadvantage of the GC is that you can't be certain when your objects are actually destroyed so you need to write your code to take this into consideration. With the GC comes the term Managed Code or code that is managed by the GC. Much is made of C#'s (as well as C++) ability to write un-managed code but un-managed code will be unlikely to work with any objects written in managed code so most .net coders will not use this facility.
It's simply wrong of people to suggest that Operating systems are being written in .net. .net is an intermediary that allows you and I to write code that will communicate with the OS API without us having to know it's intricacies. I also would like to see the day the .net framework runs and compiles on linux. Who are the dedicated programmers out there who are going to program that? Microsoft? write a version of .net for a non-MS OS. No chance.
Bottom line if you and your users use Windows 2000/XP you must write your apps in .net or get left behind. If they use Windows98 then start panic. Bit like us really. We have about 600 machines using Office97. It's going to be very expensive to upgrade these machines and to the user why should we. They can write letters, spreadhseets and databases on their machine even now. Microsoft moves on while most of our needs stay the same in real terms so they need to push us along with them if possible. I'm along for the ride but I like to know whats going on. A healthy bit of cycnicism shouldn't mean I have to hide in the dark.

[hellswraith]

I also would like to see the day the .net framework runs and compiles on linux. Who are the dedicated programmers out there who are going to program that? Microsoft? write a version of .net for a non-MS OS. No chance.

Here is the day you wanted to see. It has been in work for a while now, progressing quite well I might add...
http://www.go-mono.com/