kovan

John 8:58 Before Abraham was, I AM
Or read all of John 8.

http://inthebeginning.net/cgi-bin/En...ToSearch=John8

Then choose "Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT" in the "Search in:" dropdown box.

58 eipen <2036> (5627) {SAID} autoiV <846> o <3588> {TO THEM} ihsouV <2424> {JESUS,} amhn <281> {VERILY} amhn <281> {VERILY} legw <3004> (5719) {I SAY} umin <5213> {TO YOU,} prin <4250> {BEFORE} abraam <11> {ABRAHAM} genesqai <1096> (5635) {WAS} egw <1473> {I} eimi <1510> (5748) {AM.}

Tell me that's not a claim that any observer in any time would not say is blasphemous. That's why they wanted to stone him in the next verse. How is it possible that He got away? Is your defence that this is all fiction?

Doesn't Islam say that Jesus is/was a prophet? Would a prophet blaspheme as this statement "apparently" is so?

Or is God claiming to be God and therefore is NOT blasphemy.?

[kovan]

Originally posted by VirtuallyVB
Is your defence that this is all fiction?

Doesn't Islam say that Jesus is/was a prophet? Would a prophet blaspheme as this statement "apparently" is so?

Or is God claiming to be God and therefore is NOT blasphemy.? [/B]

Islam says jesus "IS" a prophet
islam also says bible is corrupted THEREFOR what ever Jesus (peace be upon him) said "according" to bible is purely FALSE

using bible to speak on behalf of islam like having a athiest tell you there is god..

let me post some verse from JOHN 8

42] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
[43] Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[45] And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
[46] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
[47] He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
[48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
[49] Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
[50] And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
[51] Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
[52] Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
[53] Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
[54] Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
[55] Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
[59] Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

according to this.. he is saying God sent him, then he is saying he is god, but he says he came on behalf of god
and later on he says god is his fatherr..

its like this "hi i am came from my father, if i tel you i am not my father, then i am a lair, but i am here on his behalf.."

hmmm little wishy washy dont you think?

bible is corrupted - proven so
can you prove Quran wrong?

about the fact that he escaped from being stoned..
if you read about earlier prophets.. they were ALL protected BY God
Moses, Lot, Jacob, Muhammad, Jesus, Adam, Abraham..
(peace be upon all of them)
all of them..
and about jesus, according to islam he is one of the most important of prophets, the messanger of "TRUE" bible, not the corrupted one


here is something else

if jesus is god(which you claim) how could he die?
if he is son of god(oops i thought he was god?)
you see
doesnt make sense

[kb244]

I'll just throw a little mix into this batter from a
christian view (I am not against, nor for the Quran, so I
am not auguring, if the bible is corupted or not, but
rather what it's vauge interpretation is)

According to the Trinity, God(The Fauther), Jesus(The Son),
And the holy ghost(The Bond between the fauther and son).
is one and only one being, they are 3 but one union, also
according to the bible (I dont have the verse off the time
of my head) they mentinoed that in death you would
understand the union of the trinity, how it is one being.


I guess one person put it, it is three essence with a
single soul.

just thought I'd throw that in for some further discussion.


[Edited by kb244 on 09-21-2000 at 03:50 PM]

Question #1. If this claim is made by Jesus in John8:58, do you say that it is a claim by Jesus that He is God or do you say that it is not a claim of being God?

Question #2. So when the bible says that Jesus said, "John8:[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.", did He say it? Or is the bible completely corrupt?

Question #3. Assuming the bible (all forms/translations etc.)is corrupt, where shall I learn about this Jesus, "the most important of prophets" as Islam says?

[kb244]

I'll try to answer 1 and 2 out of my own opinion.

When he says he's not god, talking about him born as a man, but when he says he has existed before abraham, talks about his soul existing before him.

I guess the bible is a bit wishy washy (and no doubt some of it may been changed over time) ,

also #3 is an intriguing one, because in the Catholic bible, you know of his birth, you get a tiny bit of his early teens (13 I think it was) , and then you skip a bunch of years to when he is 37 I think, so a lot is left out of "The most important of prophets"

Also just my opinion , but couldnt the Quaran have some bias as well, like mentioning jesus as an important prophet, instead of disregarding him, was probally an act of compassion, to hopefully convert more christians to the Quaran.

[kovan]

if your asking me about the bible.. yes its CORRUPT
thats if your asking me, if it was asking you then it would be a different story

correction on the following:

"the most important of prophets" as Islam says? [/B]

if you read my origianl it says ONE OF THE
not THE

2 questiones answered, one to go

since i believe bible is corrupt
then him claiming being god or not is not a important issue
what ever the bible says is wrong
so there for he claiming god is as false as him being son of god
(what bible says, jesus said is NOT what jesus said)


KB...
i wanna believe and see before i die that all 3 are one
being a christian.. hmmmm saying all 3 souls

i thought God was god? not a human so there for he doesnt have a soul..

sooo many unanswered questions in the bible


VIRTUAL VB
answer questions short n sweet like i have..

1: do you believe bible is corrupt in any form? part or whole

2: if yes, where and how

3: if jesus is way to heaven and DIED for "MY" yes i mean ME (KOVAN) then i can go do what ever the hell i want and since he died for my sins i dont get punished... (this is something else no christian can explain)
either he died for my sins or he didnt
and if he did then i am "SAVED" no matter what i do
if i am not saved from what ever i do
why the hell did he die for? ACCORDING TO YOU and if he died, shouldnt god be dead since jesus "IS" god?


ok back to answering your 3rd question..

if you ask me:
i would say "READ Quran, investigate it.. go into DETAILS what ever you want, and if you do believe its NOT CORRUPT
then read chapter called "Mary" which is chapter 19...
here is the link

MARIAM(MARY) QUR'AN 19:

[kovan]

can you clean your posts so they align please, thank you

and quran has no bias since virtualVB either on PURPOSE
incorrectly quoted what i said or he missread..
also no where in the quran (or at least i dont know of)
does it EVER state if one prophet has higher ranking over
another... all are from GOD, and to preach word of god

maybe i misslead you guyz by that "important word"
i meant that he, moses, muhammad, abraham, adam and some
others.. (peace be upon all of them) are mentioned more in
quran then others.. according to quran there is approx 12
5000 prophets, but all are not MENTIONED IN DETAIL in the
quran like the ones i mentioned above..

and you get a lot about jesus through out the quran....
if you read it..


[Edited by kovan on 09-21-2000 at 03:39 PM]

[HarryW]

The trinity is as Karl said, it's not something that noone can explain - Jesus was like an embodiment of God walking the Earth, and though he died (and was resurrected if you remember - doesn't that suggest he's a bit special?) All that meant was that He was no longer walking the Earth as an embodiment of God. God didn't die, God can't die because He's God. It's just that there ceased to be this projection of God as a man on Earth.

The original point of this discussion was about contradictions in the Bible, and the only way you can discuss that is using the Bible itself as a resource. It's not unreasonable to provide an explanation for the Trinity with a quote from the Bible - one that you had used to try and prove a contradiction. The Trinity is not a simple concept, but I am quite sure it isn't beyond you.

[kovan]

HARRYw you right using something corrupted to explain something more corrupted = hmm you think of the word my brain hurts...

but trinity should be explained if i want to believe in it..
and if it meant jesus doesnt walk on earth..
does that mean he got banned from earth for OUR sins?

still didn't get your opinion on the quran...

i would like to hear them..

[kb244]

no offense kovan, but you sound more like an atheist than
someone who has a religion, such people as yourselves
require proof before putting your faith into anything, such
behavior have proven to weaken your faith in anything. Also
the bible would have been much clearer if it were often
written from the start, for example, it is mentioned that
most of the bible was carried by work of month until
someone could write that "book" in, also through all of
those translations, literal or interpreational translations
can cause problems, imagine how many languages it had to be
translated through before it finally reached english. If
the bible is corupted, it's been corupted by man.

oh this is my definition of an atheist :}

"An atheist is one who has no invisible means of support"

[HarryW]

No kovan you are using your own assumptions in a debate in which they are not relevant. You may think that the Bible is corrupted and you are free to do so, I'm not so sure about it's authenticity myself, but you cannot then use your beliefs to prove a point in a context in which they are not valid. In order to prove that the Bible is wrong by contradiction you MUST first assume that any of its content is true, otherwise your whole proof is useless. I suspect that you are more interested in telling us all how corrupt you think it is that actually constructing such a proof, once your original proof (which you didn't construct yourself I might add) is questioned. Sorry to be abrasive but I find this a little annoying.

"Trinity should be explained if I want to believe in it" - well I just explained it, in summary (I think)

Jesus didn't get 'banned' and using emotive words like that is not going to help you prove a point. The idea is that He sacrificed himself for the benefit of Mankind. It was not some kind of punishment.

I have not read the Qu'ran, exept for those extracts you have posted. I am honestly sorry that I cannot comment on it but I don't read the Bible either. I have some general knowledge of the Bible because of the culture I have grown up in.

[kovan]

KB - hmmm how weird if you think so i cannot make you think other wize
i am however a FIRM believer in ONE God
and for me to have such a belief, i have been given proof
you might not see how i have been given proof
because i dont think your too familiar with islam
since bible is corrupted by man.. so you say
that is exactly what i been saying thta MAN corrupted it
my belief, yes my belief tells me that bible was PURE from god, but man corrupted it
so was the torah
and certainly you will argue that quran will get corrupted too? i will not answer that, i will let you if your interested read it and decide that for yourself

no hard feelings

HARRYW
you dont have to be sorry about not having an opinion or not have read the Qur'an
and your certainly not required to do so

i was just asking i thought you might be familiar
if you do want to know anything let me know

and about trinity
i am sorry but it doesnt make sense to me
you mentioned something about you will know the meaning of it when you die...
whats the point of it then? i like to know what i believe in before i die

and about the sacrifies

i believe all the christians i met say "if you believe in jesus your SAVED, because he died for YOUR sins"
so how does that justify me going around killing, raping
and if i believe in jesus, i am saved

sorry but thats a little out of wack for me to believe

about proving the bible wrong

i am giving you contridictions..

and of course they are not my words and i didn't construct them
however i did check MOST of those references againts bible and they are RIGHT out of contexts

n e ways
i hope there is no hard feelings because certainly it wasnt meant to give hard feelings
except to show BIBLE readers what they read "COULD" be not wht they think it is, i think everyone should have a choice on what they believe, but me posting those verses, certainly is not againts anyone if they believe other wize

example: you could sit there and bash quran and islam all you want and say its wrong, if you cant prove it to ME i think your just an ass
if you do prove it to me
then obviously i think i will take your thoughts into consideration because if you prove my belief to be wrong
then why should i believe in a false religion/belief

... so that I will be able to perceive that not only was it "short n sweet", but that my questions were actually answered:
Answer#1(for Question#1) is ... [enter your answer here]
Answer#2(for Question#2) is ... [enter your answer here]
Answer#3(for Question#3) is ... [enter your answer here]

You may assume correctly that I am asking YOU, kovan. Especially since I wrote kovan, so you don't have to add unnecessary words like, "if you're asking me...". That further confused your "answer(s)?" as perceived by me.

[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 09-21-2000 at 11:41 PM]

Thank you, but I'm starting with kovan's premise that the bible is crap, sucks, sux, is fiction, and corrupt. I'm sure I missed some of his adjectives.

So, again kovan
Where am I to learn about this prophet called, Jesus?
Do (good) prophets blaspheme?