P4 pins...

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 09:36 AM

any way I can tell if my P4 is 478 or 423 pin short of taking it out and counting them?

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 09:50 AM

Doesn't removal of the heatsink on a Dell void the warranty? Not sure..

The one on the left is 478, the one on the right is 423.

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 10:04 AM

since they have a whole section on their web site telling you how to change the mobo and other bits, I doubt it voids the warranty

http://docs.euro.dell.com/docs/syste...ce.htm#1101572

Guess i'll be taking it out then...

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 12:15 PM

You upgrading your CPU to what? Or are you getting a new board?

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 12:20 PM

I'm keeping my options open at this point

As I see it, I could do 1 of three things:

Leave it as it is
Upgrade the PSU and the mobo so I can have DDR ram but keep current chip (hence the pin question).
Buy an Athlon mobo, Athlon Xp something/HS/fan and a new PSU

I'm leaning towards keeping the P4, because despite it's bad reputation it's still no sloutch and believe it or not keeps admirally up with my mate's Athlon XP 1900+ (1.6 Ghz) and even outperforms it in 3dmark.

**numtel** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 12:35 PM

I'm confused, is that justin or crypticblade?

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by numtel
I'm confused, is that justin or crypticblade?

It's me, Justin, i'm just stealing people's identities

Chris...you sure it's outperforming in 3DMark? The SDRAM should really be holding back your P4 system...I don't know how he's NOT beating you in 3DMark...same video card?

Either of those two below options seem OK to me, I'd take number 3 but it's up to you. Of course keep in mind that Athlons require more cooling, and that = more noise...not screaming loud fans, but not as quiet as Dells usually are

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan
Chris...you sure it's outperforming in 3DMark? The SDRAM should really be holding back your P4 system...I don't know how he's NOT beating you in 3DMark...same video card?

I'm very sure; he's using SD as well.

I think the two are fairly evenly matched when you give them the same type of ram...comparing Athlon with DDR to a P4 with SDR is cheating

His is a standard GF2, as you know mine is a GTS but a) the difference isn't that great b) you said SDR is the bottleneck

Provided this P4 is 478pin (i've yet to check) I'll get a new mobo for it fairly soon. If it isn't, then i'll have to do number 3 but I won't do that for a while

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
I think the two are fairly evenly matched when you give them the same type of ram...comparing Athlon with DDR to a P4 with SDR is cheating

His is a standard GF2, as you know mine is a GTS but a) the difference isn't that great b) you said SDR is the bottleneck

Most comparisons these days stack a P4 with DDR to an Athlon with DDR...even with a 500 or 600Mhz lead, the P4 still often loses to an Athlon. As a matter of fact, talk about unfair advantage, some reviews stack a P4 with Rambus RAM to an Athlon with DDR...

Standard GF2, what is that clocked at? GF2 MX? I didn't know they ever made a plain old GF2. Besides yours is also overclocked...

If you were to put your GTS in your friends Athlon, I can guarantee that unless there is something seriously wrong with his system, it will be faster in the Athlon...

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 02:41 PM

err yeah sorry GF2MX, which he also O/Cs I might add

I'm not denying the Athlon is faster; i've seen the benchmarks often enough.

But i'm still pulling almost twice his 3dmark score, I don't think that's purely down to the GTS...I dunno, maybe it is, but I wouldn't have thought so.

I think once I get the GF4 Ti4400 in there (should be next wednesday) and hopefully the DDR then it will be a fairly serious beast. Even if it is Intel

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
err yeah sorry GF2MX, which he also O/Cs I might add

I'm not denying the Athlon is faster; i've seen the benchmarks often enough.

But i'm still pulling almost twice his 3dmark score, I don't think that's purely down to the GTS...I dunno, maybe it is, but I wouldn't have thought so.

I think once I get the GF4 Ti4400 in there (should be next wednesday) and hopefully the DDR then it will be a fairly serious beast. Even if it is Intel

Perhaps he forgot to install his VIA 4 in 1 drivers, that seriously cuts performance. Is it a GeForce2 MX200? Those things are ungodly slow...

Your GTS could very well be what does it, remember that the GF2 GTS uses DDR memory while the GF2 MX uses SDRAM, so your card's memory speed is more than 2 times the speed of his..

Still, that's very odd.

Yeah...P4 Williamettes aren't extraordinary overclockers, but even if you overclock it to 1.9Ghz and pair it with DDR and a Ti4400, should be pretty fast...1.9 Williamette should be roughly as fast as a 1.4 Athlon, maybe a bit faster in a couple of apps, a bit slower in others.

**chrisjk** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 03:17 PM

good news: I've taken it out and had a good look at it; from the pictures you posted it's a 478pin

I am now seriously tempted to by a new mobo for it so I can get DDR and sell my SDRAM to him (he wants it for some reason).

Couple of 512 sticks should do me

He got the latest drivers for it; it's a hurcules (sp?) fairly sure it's not the MX200. Good point about the DDR in the GTS; that could be it.

**JungleMan** · Jun 23rd, 2002, 04:31 PM

You can find some cheap ones based on the SiS 645 but that's about it, the rest are $100+...see if you can dig up:

- Abit SD7-533
- EPoX 4SDA+
- Soyo P4S Dragon Ultra (expensive..but NICE)

I'd recommend the proven reliability and stability of an Intel chipset...after all, there isn't a whole lot more reason to buy one considering you can get an AGOIA XP1600 for under $100 and OC it very high.

The 845E is nice, sadly not cheap. Check out the Abit BD7II. Gigabyte GA-8IEXP is nice too, a little pricey however.

Don't get an Intel board, you can't overclock them.

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 03:09 PM

ok cheers for the advice. How about the Intel 450D chipset? Yeah I know about the Intel mobo's not being clockable; i've got one (dell branded of course

)

check out the 3dmarks with the ti4400...just wait till I get me some DDR

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
ok cheers for the advice. How about the Intel 450D chipset? Yeah I know about the Intel mobo's not being clockable; i've got one (dell branded of course )

check out the 3dmarks with the ti4400...just wait till I get me some DDR

No offense but that's painfully low for a Ti4400, I'm getting 8000 with my Ti200

450D chipset? I don't think there's such a thing, at least not for P4.

Where are some popular online stores in the UK?

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 03:25 PM

yeah don't forget it's still SDR!

I didn't expect it to double, let alone more than double because the bottleneck (as you put it) still remains.

The true test is when I get the DDR...

Yep Intel made a 450D variant of the 450 for DDR. There's a few boards knocking about with the 450D which is why I mentioned it, but the best ones AFAIK were the SiS ones

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
yeah don't forget it's still SDR!

I didn't expect it to double, let alone more than double because the bottleneck (as you put it) still remains.

The true test is when I get the DDR...

Yep Intel made a 450D variant of the 450 for DDR. There's a few boards knocking about with the 450D which is why I mentioned it, but the best ones AFAIK were the SiS ones

Oh, you're thinking of the 845D? There is no 450D

Yeah, the SiS ones are good too...

What concerns me about Dell's casing is the really strange I/O headers they use, you'd have to change out the back I/O header to fit a standard board in there, since they lay it out so weird. I don't nkow how to do that, I've never done it, but maybe someone else can elaborate...

Example, here's a standard Asus P4S533:

And here's the back of the Dimension 4500

You're basically missing a serial port, a NIC, and the sound, and the Dell board has an extra USB header..does the back of your 4300 look like the 4500?

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 04:00 PM

ahhh, yes apologies the 845D

it's identical except the 2 USB ports are below the serial and parallel, there are none above. Would it not be possible just to leave a whole in the case though where the ports are...they're definately not like that mobo picture

It's also got some USB ports on the front with a headphone jack under the funky front flap, that connects up to the motherboard with what looks like an IDE cable but approx half the width. Presumably that will be put out of action...

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
ahhh, yes apologies the 845D

it's identical except the 2 USB ports are below the serial and parallel, there are none above. Would it not be possible just to leave a whole in the case though where the ports are...they're definately not like that mobo picture

It's also got some USB ports on the front with a headphone jack under the funky front flap, that connects up to the motherboard with what looks like an IDE cable but approx half the width. Presumably that will be put out of action...

I'm sure if you could cut a hole in there it'd be fine, but still a pain in the arse

Hmm, I've personally never heard of one of those on a standard motherboard.

Matter of fact, the Asus P4B533 seems like a nice board...I'm not too big on my Intel stuff, but I've heard the SiS 645DX is a nice chipset for it and Asus is a good board maker. I've heard the MSI 645 isn't that good.

One more important question...on the back of your case, below the I/O panel, are there 7 expansion covers, if not how many are there...need to make sure the case is big enough to fit the Asus in, Dell only has 4 PCI which makes me suspicious..

Also, you do know you will need a new power supply as Dell uses a proprietary wiring, I'd recommend just any 300w...Antec and Sparkle are good ones.

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 04:43 PM

I think that part of the case comes away with the mboard...it has an attached metal tray which I reckon leaves a hole where those io ports are. I know it would look unsightly but who looks at the back of their case?!

cool thanks I'll check that out.

There are 5 expansion covers, all but one is occupied

Yep I know about the PSU, a cheapo 400W one is not a lot of £££ so that's no problem

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
we are talking about the same thing here...these things right?

Coz I'm looking at a load of full ATX boards and they are all either 5 or 6 PCI slots (no ISA in sight )

Yes, those are it

Even if there were 5 PCI slots, you'd need a 6th slot for AGP...the only boards with 4 PCI or less would be Micro ATX boards

Personally, I don't see how you'd be able to fit a full ATX in there, unless there is a lot of wasted space below the last expansion cover.

This is why I hate and I'll always hate Dells..you should really build next time

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 05:55 PM

d'oh! yes of course forgot the AGP

hmm, not a lot of space, infact...none

basically I need one with 4 PCI slots...arse!

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 06:36 PM

The sis boards are ****, they get horrible performance... Best performance is the 850, then the VIA DDR boards... Best stability is with the 850 also, but you'll have to get RAMBUS, which is still fairly expensive...

Gotta make sure you get a good heatsink/fan if you plan on O/Cing...

When did you get this comp? Are you SURE it's 478? Because 478 came out not too long ago....

Originally posted by chrisjk
ok cheers for the advice. How about the Intel 450D chipset? Yeah I know about the Intel mobo's not being clockable; i've got one (dell branded of course )

check out the 3dmarks with the ti4400...just wait till I get me some DDR

**AHEM**

http://service.madonion.com/compare?2k1=3333810

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 06:56 PM

el bastardo alert: the current board is 280mm tall, i can get upto 300mm in there; all ATX I come across are 305..how much of a **** is that

Originally posted by kalicki
**AHEM**

http://service.madonion.com/compare?2k1=3333810

not entirely sure how many times I have to say this, but

a) this is still, even though at least 1 hour has gone since I last said it, an SDR machine
b) I haven't overclocked it in the slightest

I just doubled my previous score, so shuddup ya face!

And yes, I am sure it is 478...i got it in sep last year and it looks exactly like the one on the left in Justin's pics and nothing like the one on the right...

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
el bastardo alert: the current board is 280mm tall, i can get upto 300mm in there; all ATX I come across are 305..how much of a **** is that

not entirely sure how many times I have to say this, but

a) this is still, even though at least 1 hour has gone since I last said it, an SDR machine
b) I haven't overclocked it in the slightest

I just doubled my previous score, so shuddup ya face!

And yes, I am sure it is 478...i got it in sep last year and it looks exactly like the one on the left in Justin's pics and nothing like the one on the right...

OK...

I know 7,*** isn't anything bad, I just felt like throwing that in, I'm not gonna spend several hundred dollars and not brag about it...

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 07:27 PM

I just clocked it to 291/590 and got...

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 07:35 PM

hmmm...

The card operates stably at 305/340 (680) MHz which is higher than the rated speed of the Ti 4600

**chrisjk** · Jun 25th, 2002, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan
/edit: OK found one, called Asus P4B533-VM...has an AGP slot, 3 PCI, onboard video/sound/LAN, DDR support, etc, should do fine.

any chance of finding one with 4 PCI?...I really would like that extra one for whatever reason

Damnation! 5mm!!!!!

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by chrisjk
any chance of finding one with 4 PCI?...I really would like that extra one for whatever reason

Damnation! 5mm!!!!!

And now have you figured out why I keep trashing Dell??

You can find one with 4 PCI but it's an Intel board, not an OCers board

I can't find any others with 4 PCI. I found one with 3 PCI and it has the integrated LAN, which takes care of some stuff...

Kalicki: Oh, didn't know the SiS 645DX chipsets were that bad. In the AMD world, the 745 is sh*t compared to the KT333, I just heard so much about the 645DX...

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan

And now have you figured out why I keep trashing Dell??

You can find one with 4 PCI but it's an Intel board, not an OCers board I can't find any others with 4 PCI. I found one with 3 PCI and it has the integrated LAN, which takes care of some stuff...

Kalicki: Oh, didn't know the SiS 645DX chipsets were that bad. In the AMD world, the 745 is sh*t compared to the KT333, I just heard so much about the 645DX...

HORRIBLE performance...

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 09:19 PM

OK, I slightly exagerated, but it is still the lowest performer of the P4 boards...

http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzE2LDI=

I'd go RDRAM at this point... :/

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 10:10 PM

Yeah, but try finding a Micro ATX i850E board and PC1066 to go with it...not gonna happen

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 10:57 PM

Seriously, it might be cheaper to just get a new case than to try and find a GOOD MicroATX mobo...

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by kalicki
Seriously, it might be cheaper to just get a new case than to try and find a GOOD MicroATX mobo...

That's a viable option, and probably the best, but that would also require a new heatsink/fan since Dell uses a proprietary ducted system with a passive heatsink unit.

You see it just never ends with upgrading these damn Dells. If he did that, he'd need a new board, case, RAM, power supply, heatsink

if it wasn't Dell all he'd need is a board and RAM...sure, he COULD get by without changing the heatsink or case, but who wants a Micro ATX? And you'd also have to cut your case's IO header out. Choices are limited. If you can live with 3 PCI go for it...

Chris just be thankful you don't have one of those slim Dells...those things are impossible...

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 11:05 PM

It never ends, does it....

You can grab alot better HS for like $20...

**JungleMan** · Jun 25th, 2002, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by kalicki
It never ends, does it....

You can grab alot better HS for like $20...

Thermalright AX-478 is nice. Basically the same as the AX-7 but for Pentium 4.

Sorry to get off topic but have you seen the new SLK-800 yet? *drool*

**kalicki** · Jun 25th, 2002, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by JungleMan

Thermalright AX-478 is nice. Basically the same as the AX-7 but for Pentium 4.

Sorry to get off topic but have you seen the new SLK-800 yet? *drool*

Yeah, I like my AX7 just fine though...

**chrisjk** · Jun 26th, 2002, 08:57 AM

I'm beginning to think I might just forget this idea...

Dell do a D4300 with DDR (as opposed to RDRAM), I think I might just give them a call see if I can buy a board seperately with the i845D...gotta be worth a shot.

In the mean time, if you can find any board that is less than 300mm tall, let me know!! cheers lads

**JungleMan** · Jun 26th, 2002, 09:27 AM

Look at their prices:
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...ategory_id=629

Just get a Micro ATX if you want..

**chrisjk** · Jun 26th, 2002, 09:55 AM

I really don't want MicroATX though...

Okay, do you think you could find me a similar looking (i.e. black/silver) ATX case for not much money? I reckon if that is reasonable i'll get a new case and slap an ATX board in there and just rip the components from this one (aside the PSU obviously)

I think that's the best thing to do, can you do that? cheers dude

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