C++ or VB ?? What is better for 3D Graphics?

[scandrew]

Hi,
I am looking for advice. I use VB now. I like it. But from now I am going to start learning 3D graphics (DirectX 8). I think C++ is much faster and give more opportunities. What do you think is there a need to make 3d Games in C++, or I can do it in VB just as good as in C++?

Thanks,
Andrew

[Fox]

C++ is faster and you can do everything in it.

[Sastraxi]

In VB the graphics will be almost the same speed, but the other routines will slow you down.

[Janus]

Nah, VB is actually much slower and less good at 3D. Definitely use C++, though it might be worth writing a high-level COM library in C++, and then using VB to wrap it in a game engine. All the vertex/matrix/etc. manipulation is still much slower in VB than in C++.

[Kevin_0011]

My friend and I have built several 3D games in VB, all that work VERY fast (mind you we used OpenGL, not DX8).

As long as you don't use bulky intrinsic controls (i.e. timer[less?] control) the program will go pretty fast. Replace repetitive calculations with look-up tables, etc. If you really need some complex calculation that is just too slow, then VB is more than supportive of mult-language programming (e.g. write an assembler macro to do the job, MASM is free with Visual Studio!)

If I were you, I would stay with VB since it is SOOOO much easier! And besides, there must be a 20% difference in speed for a user to notice a difference, so I wouldn't worry.

[Zaei]

DX8 (and probably all of the other DirectX versions) ARE built on COM. As Sas said, the Graphics will be nearly the (or the same) speed as C++, since both use the same code. On the other hand, Logic and AI are starting to take up more and more CPU time, which will REALLY make a difference in VB, since it is so much slower. Since you are just starting out, you can safely stick with VB, since your logic code wont be taking most of you CPU time. If you later move onto something more heavy duty, C++ is a much better bet.

Z.

[Kevin_0011]

I still don't see why everyone is obsessed with VC++! Obviously it has some inherit speed increases, but then again you could easily incorporate them into VB6 (e.g. DLL, Macro). However, when in VB, smarter programming is of the essence; repeat code does not equal repeat players!

[Zaei]

Actually, in some cases, it is FASTER to repeat segments of code...

C++ offers MANY advantages over VB, only one of which is speed. You also get true OOP, with inheritance, which VB only partially supports. Classes are also easier to use, and objects take up less room then VB objects. You get low level access, including inline assembly.

VB is great for tools and tests, but beyond that, I wouldnt really consider it anymore for writing an actual engine (I am pretty obsessed with modularity, which VB isnt so good at).

Z.

[Dude1]

Yeh, VB is a great language, but if you want to become a game programmer you have to know C++, I have never seen commercial companies like Sierra or Novalogic make games with VB - please correct me if I'm wrong

[Javan]

C++, OOP is the way to go when dealing with graphics.

[jimmymou]

My own experience, that has nothing to herit from true graphics programming, comes from finite element system resolutions (to resolve thermodynamics systems).

Most mathematical functions are available in C++, this is not always the case with VB, and the resolution (or calculation) of big math equation is faster with C++.

Nevertheless, today I develop more under VB than under C++, but as soon as this requires a faster math procedure, either I build an entire C++ App, either I build a DLL to do this from VB.

JiMmY

[Zaei]

In games, there are many different sub systems that need to interact together. C++ allows so much ease in this area, through OOP, that I would hardly consider another language. C++'s main strength is not its speed, but the ease of creating a large interconnected system, through OOP.

Z.

[Bazza81]

My views on C++ and VB. If any of these views seem strange or irrelivant then I must appoligise for they are just my views.

C++ has been a round for a while now and it has become the standard in industrial application devlopment. Large complex, industrial programs such as games and high end server database programs benefit much more from an OOP C++ approach. VB could never rival thees things. C++ is made for the professionals and is in my opinion a very friendly language considering it was made decades ago. I think the C language as a hwole will stay with us for a very long time and it should becuase of all the advantages it offers. ASM and other such low level languages will definatly become used less and less as the C compilers become more advanced and efficient. The specs of PC's are increasing so much that ASM will hardly ever be used anymore where speed is a factor. We owe a lot to C++ due to all the great things it has brought us, like Windows for instance. I do not want to start a debate about Windows here becuase in my view it is a programming masterpiece. All these people who say Windows is crap ect, probably don't appreciate or even know the ammount of work that went into it for us to play games and do out usual stuff that we take for granted. I just wish I had the knowledge to build my own OS, so I am thankful for Windows. Anyway, back to my point. C++ is here to stay and it will always be faster and more efficient than any other language.

Onto VB. VB was made for VERY fast application development. I don't think anyone will disagree that if you just want to create a simple application for say, keeping track of employees in a company, then VB will beat any competition with its eyes closed. A novice VB programmer could build a simple application 10 times quicker than an experience C++ coder could. But, this is why VB was developed. To let the coding kiddies make little 2D shoot em ups in the middle of the night and the assistant programmer in a company quickly develop a hit counting system for the companies web site. These are the things that no other language in the world can offer. Sure you can make the same things in C++ but they will take 5 times as long.

For novice programmers trying to learn the basics of programming as a whole, then VB is definatly the way to go. VB will beat anything in simple application developemtn, C++ will always beat anything in complex application development!

Any comments?

[Zaei]

Windows was mainly programmed in C, with some assembly.

Z.

[Pc_Madness]

C++ has been a round for a while now and it has become the standard in industrial application devlopment. Large complex, industrial programs such as games and high end server database programs benefit much more from an OOP C++ approach. VB could never rival thees things. C++ is made for the professionals and is in my opinion a very friendly language considering it was made decades ago. I think the C language as a hwole will stay with us for a very long time and it should becuase of all the advantages it offers. ASM and other such low level languages will definatly become used less and less as the C compilers become more advanced and efficient. The specs of PC's are increasing so much that ASM will hardly ever be used anymore where speed is a factor. We owe a lot to C++ due to all the great things it has brought us, like Windows for instance. I do not want to start a debate about Windows here becuase in my view it is a programming masterpiece. All these people who say Windows is crap ect, probably don't appreciate or even know the ammount of work that went into it for us to play games and do out usual stuff that we take for granted. I just wish I had the knowledge to build my own OS, so I am thankful for Windows. Anyway, back to my point. C++ is here to stay and it will always be faster and more efficient than any other language

I agree, Windows is great. If you think about it, we might be using DOS still, of Mac OS or some other crappy thing.

[Jotaf98]

Well hmm I'm currently developing a MMORPG (like everyone else ) and since I recently learned C++, I was considering making the game in C++ instead of VB... the only thing that bothers me is that sometimes I forget that C++ doesn't automatically take care of pointers everything else is ok I guess. Anyway... do you think it would be best to start the engine from scratch in C++, or continue the one I have in VB?

Btw no matter what those weenies say, Windows is a lot better than most of the other crap. Oh maybe it's not so good as Linux when it comes to security. And of course DOS is always cool, I grew up with it But it's still better for most stuff.

Hmm... something else... the way I make my games, I NEVER use OOP. It's like, an array of enemies and then you loop trough every one of them and based on their type and all move them or make them fire in some way etc. In OOP it's a bit different. Well, it seems that I can't "think" OOP when I'm programming that's bad right? Where can I learn this?
Sorry, I know, it's a kind of a very abstract question but what the hell. I need to know

[Javan]

Hmm... something else... the way I make my games, I NEVER use OOP. It's like, an array of enemies and then you loop trough every one of them and based on their type and all move them or make them fire in some way etc. In OOP it's a bit different. Well, it seems that I can't "think" OOP when I'm programming that's bad right? Where can I learn this?
Sorry, I know, it's a kind of a very abstract question but what the hell. I need to know

If you know C++ how could you never use OOP? C++ IS an OOP language. You have to be using OOP if you're programming in C++

[Pc_Madness]

Can someone point me in the right direction in making some sort of 2D game in VB?? Like if I made a little space fighter game or something, how would I tell if its been shot?? And manage moving 3-4 bad guys across the screen.

Thanks in advance

[Janus]

Jim Davis: Read the previous post. He was asking for help with TWO-DIMENSIONAL games. not 3d ones.

[Zaei]

Originally posted by Javan

If you know C++ how could you never use OOP? C++ IS an OOP language. You have to be using OOP if you're programming in C++

You do NOT have to program with OOP in C++:

#include <stdio.h>
inline int x(int y) {
  return y*y;
}

int main() {
   printf("%i", x(10));
   return 0;
}

The above is perfectly legal C++ code, that could not compile under C.

Jotaf: The only way to learn to program the OOP way is practice thinking that way. Often times, I walk around my house, and reduce it to code (sick, huh?). My door is an object, with members Open(), Close(), Lock(), Unlock(), etc. My Light is an object, IsOn(), On(), Off(), my power outlet is an object, Object* ConnectedTo(), etc. Its then really easy to see how the objects interact (the Zaei Object can call Light::On(), or Door::Close()). Once you grasp the concept that everything in a complex system is represented as an object that other objects can act upon, its pretty easy stuff. In the case of an MMORPG, you have player objects running around, and item objects being traded, dropped, spawaned, and monster objects being killed, etc. You also have Map Objects, tree Objects, etc, etc.

Z.

[Bazza81]

If you want to know about very simple 2D gaming then check out my space invaders program. I hope it helps!

[Jotaf98]

Hmm... yeah I know that... but it's hard because I got used to think non-OOP (no classes, not many functions...) because that's how it has to be if you want your games in VB to run at a decent speed

[Zaei]

Well, dont anymore =). The way you are currently programming is pretty close to OOP anyway. You just need to change the format of your code. Your UDTs become classes, and the Functions that act on your UDTs become members. So this:

Type PlayerType
  ...
End Type

DoSomething(Player)

becomes

Call Player.DoSomething()

Z.

[Jotaf98]

Heh yeah thanks