Harry
Why are you so sure that there is one? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
I never said there was
All I was saying is that just because you don't find something doesn't mean it isn't there.

That is the WHOLE reason why Science works by DISPROOF rather than PROOF. You can never prove something to be true (unlike Maths which I think by its very nature is flawed when used as a proof for real world concepts) you can only disprove it.

Let me try to explain :

If I don't find a pattern I *might* find one tomorrow... So I cannot say that it is random. I *could* however claim it is random because someone cannot prove otherwise. Therefor it will last until someone proves it wrong and something new comes up.

The concept is easy to grasp but considering everything we have ever known or discovered has changed several times with each new level of understanding I find it hard to accept with any sense of logic that we have suddenly reached the END of that journey... it would seem STUPID to think we have reached a point where even our most brilliant minds are unable to discover something new.

How do you know that the discovery of new dimensions (ala string theory) wont provide the forces that CAUSE what we call randomness and thus make it deterministic again?

Or that research into the GUT will find an answer relating all 4 forces together and being able to provide answers to things we considered random?

I think you are all closing your eyes and discounting possiblities... for what reason I don't know.

Where is the lovely little view you mentioned?
You and I might be different but for most people they have a view of the universe and wont let go of it.

If you read my earlier posts I actually said I thought the universe was random... that somewhere deep down in the core of quantum entities there was something that could not be quantified. I changed that view the more I read.

THEN, I came on the idea that if you take 2,000,000,000,000 deterministic events that interact on each other, it could be considered that the outcome would be "random" for all intention purposes... So I proposed that our universe was deterministic but at a macroscopic level was random for that which we would consider applicable.

Like you I don't care if its one way or the other... but I am not going to just blindly accept something because that person has a certificate in it and says so... especially when it flies in the face of what I consider logical and reasonable. If what they say has TRUTH in it then it should be obvious to display that truth.

So as you can see I have allowed my thoughts and ideas to evolve as new information has come to hand while certain other people (not you) just stick to their view, deny even hearing reason and like a dog with a bone wont let go.

I thought this was supposed to be a place we could openly discuss things, bring ideas that could be prodded to see if they hold water and all learn something from the experience...

All it seems like is a group of people not wanting to budge, refusing to even acknowledge when someone else has a point and wont change their ideas even when they are shown to not be as stable as they first thought.

*Sigh*
I might come across like a $*&@#$% but I truely prize truth and logic above all else, I get passionately frustrated when I "perceive" people to ignore those truths without explainations for the flaws I bring up (or sidestepping them by talking AROUND it).