Who wants to get out of MS products?

[carolyn]

While I was reading another thread where posters are complaining MS, it makes me wonder for those unhappy users, who wants to get out, who were able to get out, who were stucked. What would be a better alternative to VB?

I think I'm sort of stucked. I developed a VB project which has on-going developments. It'd be too hard to rewrite the whole thing again. I'm still using VB5 SP3 and have no desire to upgrade. The downside, there are no more bug fixes, MS'd force you to go to VB6 if you want improvements.

But for future new developments, I'm looking for other development tools.

[Sophtware]

I Read in my programming book for vb6 that there is two other
versions of vb on the mac and linux operting systems...the mac one is called "visual macBASIC" and the linux one is called "XBASIC" They both use the same BASIC codes..so i guess that could be one way for ppl to go to another OS...

[kmchong]

Count me in... I do like to through away M$.

I think it is quite frankly that:

1) I like the windows environment, the GUI
2) I like the VB for its simplicity and powerful
3) I like the idea of easy connectivity
4) I like the standardisation that achieved


But

1) I hate M$ for incompatible upgrades in VB, (DAO,ADO etc)
2) I hate M$ for unstability, very trivial bugs, that even a beginner will not commit
3) I hate M$ for inconsistent in every their product, like performance, behaviour, sequence of events etc.
4) I hate M$ for eating up my computer, providing unproportional improvements. Of course, they improve for themselves a lot, but sacrifice developer.
5) I hage M$ because I am blamed by users in slow performance, unstability. It should be M$ to be blamed

[Paul282]

VB is Good... BUT

I'm always downloading and trying alternatives

Xbasic
RapidQ
Basic to C
etc

They all have good things about them but end up falling apart somewhere. (can't create a normal interface but fast, or, Nice and easy but runs like a dog... etc)

I want to
1. Create normal Dlls
2. create stand alone apps:
(I mean like winzip can create an exe compressed file for people who don't have winzip, or an install program can distribute a stand alone exe) you just can't do it because of the blasted run times.

I wanted to make an encryption program that you type a message and a password and it compiles a small exe with the encrypted text then at the other end the person doesn't need any software, they just click the exe, enter the password and the text displays.

BUT I CANT

even qbasic could!

What's the F**king story

Next version of VB has some OO fixes and threads which are nice but honestly, who gives a $hit about more web functionality??????? ASP and activeX dlls do anything you want, another 50 types of web class doesn't help. XML !!! wow, one componant can do that.

I wish there was more low level control (pointers if you wanted) The language is getting higher and higher level...

Personally I like the Basic to C concept
A vb like GUI with a language translater and an ANSI C compiler, even a RAD with ANSI C (Tried Borland C++ builder... close, but no cigar)

I'm thinking about Delphi5 recently...

[Paul282]

Originally posted by Sophtware
I Read in my programming book for vb6 that there is two other
versions of vb on the mac and linux operting systems...the mac one is called "visual macBASIC" and the linux one is called "XBASIC" They both use the same BASIC codes..so i guess that could be one way for ppl to go to another OS...

I tried Xbasic...
It's fast because it translates to assembly then compiles and links but in windows you're stuck with a linux look and feel. Normally not a problem but for windows users, I like to atleast be able to give them the look and feel they expect. would be good for game programming though, it absolutely flies

Oh, that's right, it has a 2.5 mb runtime dll too
(yuk)

I've thought about "not" responding on this one but after reading the above posts I thinks I've been motivated to respond. As such I'll probably be flamed for my response but oh well...

It's annoying to me to hear people whining about their development tools without understanding the big picture. While some of the above complaints hold some ground, for the most part it's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too...

So the Microsoft Developer hates Microsoft because of
instability, slow perfomance, unproportional improvements(whatever that means)... True words of a lousy developer, this is the usual scapegoat of an incompetent programmer- you can't do a good job so you blame your tools as the problem because god forbid your code would be the problem.

...Normal Dll, hmmmmm...and that would be what...I write normal VB Dll's every day, I don't think I've written an "abnormal" dll in VB yet, I'd like to see what an "abnormal" dll looks like by the way. I've also written Dll's in VC++, OK it was smaller than the VB dll but a large pain in the ass to debug; the length of paid company time to finally debug the VC++ dll and get the smaller dll to production doesn't compare to the development speed of getting a production quality Dll into production with VB.

It's funny, in all of the posts, the word easy pops up a lot followed by the whining of not being able to play around with pointers or other stuff that the C++ programmers get to play with. Well, hate to break it to ya but that's the point of Visual Basic, hide the complexity of pointers and other low level stuff so incompetent programmers don't go screwin up things really bad. Ya want pointers try StrPtr(), VarPtr(), and ObjPtr(). There are many hacks to do what you want, but be careful what you ask for, ya just might get it...

Easy...I'm really stuck on this word in reference to VB, ya want a stand alone app but you want it easy. You want pointers but you want it easy. Have any of the above whiners every written a simple(ya know, easy) ADO database component in VC++? uh---not so simple, eh? if you haven't written one then imagine taking the "easy" out of Visual Basic, and then you're left with pointers.... ya don't get both(it's 'easy' or pointers). Try writing a simple(that's right, i mean easy) single form application that displays "Hello World" in VC++...many pointers, many lines of code, not so easy as VB.


There is no one great language, every one of 'em is going to have their drawbacks. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the situation will determine what language you use. NT Service? Do I use VB? Nope. VC++ to the NT Service rescue. ADO database component for a website needed ASAP? A "normal" VB component will do the trick. Even Sun admitted(finally) that the speed issues that Java suffers from is inherent in the language and Java may always be inferior in speed to C++. It's not going away because of this, it will continue to be improved just like Visual Basic will continue to be improved.

Twice a month I get a paycheck because I use the following: Microsoft Visual Basic, Microsoft Visual C++, Microsoft Visual Interdev, Microsoft NT4/2000 Server, Microsoft Transaction Server, Microsoft Message Queue, Microsoft XMLDOM component, Microsoft IE5(and netscape too!), Microsoft Active Server Pages written with Microsoft Visual Basice Scripting.

Do Microsoft products have problems? of course. Do all products have problems? you better believe it!

Here's my suggestion, ya don't like Microsoft's development tools? then quit using 'em. Ya want stand alone apps and "normal" dll's, learn C/C++. Ya don't want Microsoft to eat up your computer? I don't even know what that means but I have a feeling user incompetence is involved in that comment.

I think I'm sort of stucked. I developed a VB project which has on-going developments. It'd be too hard to rewrite the whole thing again. I'm still using VB5 SP3 and have no desire to upgrade. The downside, there are no more bug fixes, MS'd force you to go to VB6 if you want improvements.

what?????? what do you expect? service pack 19 before you upgrade? based on the above quote "...too hard to rewrite the whole thing again..." I can see why that comment would be made, Microsoft isn't forcing you to upgrade, maybe you should recheck your coding habits....

well, that's all...let the flaming begin.
-pvb
"Proud to be a Microsoft Developer"

[JeffSM]

Visual Basic is a very good tool to develop, when Bill Gates made it, at first tiem, he had a future vision.

BUT

Today M$ thinks only obout Internet and VB6-7 has no great changes that make easyly for us, developers. VB has a lot of problems and it's not easy for us work, like find bugs, compatibility, create stand alone exes (with out dlls), etc.

Why should I need make XML, HTML, etc. if basic things like, create a cool toolbar menu, combo with pics, interaction with OS, APIs, etc. its a hard mission!

Jeff

[Paul282]

To respond to pvb

I agrree with some of your points.

The DLL bit... ?????????????
VB can't create dlls, only Active X dlls. You said that you create DLLs in VB, I'd like to see the source.

I can't create DLLs that can be used by other windows developers.

There are Delphi and C programmers in our group who pass each other dev work, they can participate on projects together because their compilers follow standard win32 architecture.

I did not use the word "EASY", I don't want a dev env which is just "Easy". I would like to continue to use the basic syntax because I'm used to it, and I like it, and I'd like to see it expanded to have the functionality that other environments enjoy.

I'm usually defending VB to people who love (yet have never used) C++ but recently I've been getting projects that can not be done in VB and I think this is a shame because I like the environment.

PS I have created stable NT services in VB, not a big deal.

I find it odd though that you can say, "Whinging about VB makes you a poor developer" and "When I can't do it in VB, VC++ to the rescue" in the same breath.

Wouldn't you prefer that VB was adequate enough that you didn't need to go to VC++?

Besides airing things here sometimes get's good alternatives. If there was a good alternative to VB that I didn't know about it then maybe someone will tell me.

At the moment VB is best (for me) but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like it to be better. And I'll continue to try alternatives to make up for the 2% of tasks that VB can't handle, What am I supposed to do, lie back and say "Oh, VB can't do it... tell the customer to go away" yeah right.

[Sophtware]

i have made a cheapo program that just displays a message on the screen when the user clicks on a command button,i just made it so i could see what it takes to make a working compiled program. So when i tried to develop the program i got a error saying "program not found in working model" but when i read my vb manual it says for small programs use the "standard.exe"...What gives? can someone help me out..i am green as grass to vb so please dont flame me...

P.S I Started out studying VC++ and i have to say for some strange reason i learned more, easier and faster with VC++ than i have with VB...but i want to learn VB...but i really dont get why it is more difficult then VC++ is for me..i guess everyone is different,oh yeah i was reading all the above posts and i do have to say i dont understand most of it...lmao. well thanks in advance too anyone that can answer my questions

[Paul282]

If you find VC++ easier to use than VB, why not use it?

I found VC++ to be very slow to develop with and very difficult to learn (compared to VB and Borland C++ builder)

To be honest I chucked it in the 'too hard basket' and gave up. I much prefer a RAD style to work with for GUI's

Paul, what?????? We have a team of five, (vb and delphi) and constantly put together dlls which are pooled to cut down on development time. VB dlls can be used in Delphi and vice versa. Maybe you need to review some material on this?

Ok dll hell is a pain...but....go and purchase Fusion from Artbits, (www.art-bits.com l think), produces a stand alone exe from a vb project.

Did any of you guys code before windows/vb?? Just think about the joys of building printer drivers, spreadsheet drivers etc. I love VB, all that stuff is done for me

If ya don't like vb, try getting around Delphi's interface..even the delphi guys on our team are trying to move to vb.

[Paul282]

Hang on, Are you serious? Can VB create DLLs (the non activex type) ??????

I know that VB can call them with the declare statement but can I create dlls with standard imports and exports? If so, I feel like an idiot, where is the documentation on that ??????

(If you read my comments above again, I said I like VB and I usually defend it, but there are some tasks it's not the best tool for which is a shame. relax would ya. )

Forget fusion, it's just a compression technique, it's not real static linking (try cpressing a 1mb exe in winzip, then compress one of they's, very suspicious) . Besides, the example I gave (like winzip) doesn't really work if you attach an 800k exe on the front of a 10k message.

[Crazy D]

You can only create ActiveX Dll's in VB, but you can use ActiveX dll's in Delphi and C++, so that argument is not really valid.
And it's pretty easy, if for whatever reason you don't like (parts of) VB, switch to something else. If for some reason you "can't", either make sure you can, or live with it.
I did. I complain a lot about VB, but I see it's good points. And for as long as I can live with the bugs/problems I find every day, I use VB. If one day I can't live with it I'll switch. Easy. No need to blaim M$ about "VB is missing this and that" because the VB-team at M$ has thought of a way to go, and that's the way they're going. Yes, a lot of internet stuff. I'd like to see too a as-good-as-bugless-VB (but then, there is *no* problem without bugs).
Basically I don't see a reason why you *and* complain a lot about VB, and still use VB. If I don't like the music that's played on the radio, I turn it off. If I sit close to someone and I hate that person, I walk away. If I use a program that I don't like, I exit the program and uninstall.
And if I don't like my job I go find a new one. Easy as that.
Please stop complaining about VB, it doesn't help, it's only a waste of bandwith. Just like this post by the way. Sorry for that.

Originally posted by JeffSM
Today M$ thinks only obout Internet and VB6-7 has no great changes that make easyly for us.

And what about:
New object oriented programming features

• Inheritance
• Encapsulation
• Overloading
• Polymorphism
• Parameterized Constructors

Additional modernized language features

• Free Threading
• Structured Exception Handling
• Type Safety
• Shared Members
• Initializers

Don't you think that any of these new features will make it any better?


http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/ne...y/language.asp

[browner]

Why don't you all stop moaning and become landscape gardeners.

[Paul282]

I do !!!

I have lettuces and tomatoes, Chives, basil and Egg plants

(All in pots because I live in Chiba Japan :-(

...Back to the fight...

I said it 3 times so I'll say it a fourth, I LIKE VB

I'm just the 'never satisfied' type. And if you don't want to listen to compliants then why post to "Who wants to get out of MS products? " thread ?????????????

I paid for the product, It's better than anything else I've found (so far) but I am allowed to voice complaints (in a complaints thread) if I like

As for the "...then use something else" aguement, There's nothing better yet, that doesn't mean things can't be improved, if no-one gave constructive criticism then vendors wouldn't know where to go. It's like writing a program for a customer and saying "you're not allowed to complain" The customer will tell you were to go!!! And in this case I AM the customer. I bought the software.

And ActiveX Dlls are not as cross vendor as NORMAL dlls, Ever try to conect to one from Borland C++ (not builder)?? or any of the other numerous C /C++ / ASM / Pascal compilers?

You guys have backed me into a corner of an aguement that I usually take the other side of but that's fine, I get to view bother sides.

So as pvb says...

well, that's all...let the flaming begin.

What's wrong with the current MS products?

Ok contacted he dudes we get out Apple stuff from, (yes some of us do have to taint ourselves with them), and they have never heard of Visual macBasic, (although they are keen to find out about it), which means back to Code Warrior..people seem to dislike vb try this garbage.

Contacted local MS and they couldn't help out. Where did you hear about it??????????

Paul...point taken...however Fusion is not just a Compression utility. It allows generation of a single exe file, and operates kind of in tandem to WinSystem...similar to Windows 2000. We are still evaluating for use, but so far looks good.

My point in this is vb does everything our company wants...and if it lacks a feature you can generally source it from third parties. Currently completing a GST roll out on a Universe system, if we want an extra feature we have to code it..added about six months to the project.

The new features in vb7 already mentioned...plus xml support and IDE generation of web pages is major. Finally a single solution to e-commerce projects.

Did anyone get emailed that Paul had answered last with a post....clearly hadn't.....

Yes it was a dream...a nightmare infact....have you seen "Dawn of the Dead"...replace the zombies with iMac salesmen and that was it....According to our NT sysop we have been having problems with email, so could've been a posting from yesterday.........

Total Agreement with others here...vb could be improved

[carolyn]

What I said:

I think I'm sort of stucked. I developed a VB project which has on-going developments. It'd be
too hard to rewrite the whole thing again. I'm still using VB5 SP3 and have no desire to
upgrade. The downside, there are no more bug fixes, MS'd force you to go to VB6 if you want
improvements.

And in response to pvb:

what?????? what do you expect? service pack 19 before you upgrade?
based on the above
quote "...too hard to rewrite the whole thing again..." I can see why that comment would be
made, Microsoft isn't forcing you to upgrade, maybe you should recheck your coding habits....

What I really mean is, it's pointless to upgrade from VB5 to VB6 because there's no major improvement and I don't need the new feature in VB6. And with VB7, I heard the new features are going to be internet stuffs, which I don't require as well. But if there are any bugs in V5, MS's only response is telling you to upgrade <-- can you call this a 'force'?

Why would you think it's my coding habbits? Most developers I know would hate to rewrite the whole system again. If a system is going to be rewritten, it's usually consider as a new project. Maybe I shouldn't use the word "too hard".

And ZafKhan said

You really started something here.

I didn't expect this thread is going to be a debate. I just want to see the views of unhappy users and looking for alternatives. As a software developers, I don't want to be stuck with just VB (which is my current dev tool).

[Paul282]

What I really mean is, it's pointless to upgrade from VB5 to VB6 because there's no major improvement and I don't need the new feature in VB6. And with VB7, I heard the new features are going to be internet stuffs, which I don't require as well. But if there are any bugs in V5, MS's only response is telling you to upgrade <-- can you call this a 'force'?

In my opinion the Split() function is reason enough to upgrade to VB6

We have just recieved the go ahead to purchase vb6, (were waiting on vb7), but having had a look at a number of new commands etc it is a must to upgrade. The split function alone is going to cut dozebs of lines out of some products and speed up their processing times.

Caroline...any software package will have upgrades. No package is ever complete. We have installations that are ten years old, and they still report the odd bug.

What do you think...Delphi is a complete product..no it's in version 4 or 5 at the moment with patches galore.

For our windows apps, we only support the current version and the previous version. Therefore if a client requires functionality to be added to say version 2 and we are currently on version 5, then they must first upgrade to the latest version. Generally it will have the functionality they require.

[Paul282]

Still, I hope the 6->7 jump is more like the 4->5 jump than the 5->6 jump.

It's looking ok, I want to try the threads, the inheritance but MOSTLY the operator overloading, That's a part of C++ which I really like. Set your constructors to add two bit array classes together, or play around with your own string class just for fun.

Web... who cares, activex dlls and asp are enough for me.

"DIM MyInt as Integer = 100"

It's about time !!!

Then the big one (and I don't know if it's in there) ...

If you move the cursor off an unfinished line of code (to copy and paste for example) you get that dialog box pop up that you have to ok on the error before you continue

You have to be able to turn that off, the line going red is great, and it's enough, that damn ok to the error box $hit$ me up the wall

The demos we have seen so far indicate that web page building will be as simple as current application building, allowing for automatic database updates etc direct from web deployed apps....this means no longer building the database, nt application...then building web pages and joining the whole thing up.Yippee!!!!!!!!

Have been doing some stuff with xml, vb and asp...and currently it is a total pain.

Hoping they will also include proper formating of code. Where a whole series of "="s can be lined up...haven't got this to work in vb5 and it makes code readin incrediably difficult.

[Paul282]

hmmmm...

I prefer setting the SQL servers up and writing the pages myself

call me old fashion

[Crazy D]

Forgot who said it, but.... yes of course you have the right to complain. But, why not mail M$ instead of posting here. I forgot the exact address, probably something like [email protected] or something like that.
They are the ones who can really do something about it. I don't think the M$ guys are checking every VB board to see if ppl are complaining and if they do, add it to a database or something. Complaining here is not much of a help, except that you can say what you wanna say, but it won't help to improve the product.

[Paul282]

Talking about stating the blindingly obvious It's not about telling M$

This is a thread for "Natural Born Whingers" Like me!
Some things just annoy me from time to time and having a whinge about it to others who are in the same field makes me feel better.

Thank you Caroline for creating this thread,

I don't think anyone who came into this thread expected to see reams of VBcode or useful techniques hahahaha

Valium: For people who take things too seriously!