End it now

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman
I think we are too narrowminded and see that everyone has the right to live a good life everyone starting equal, because only those rich people in US, that believe in freedom, and I say rich as the whole nation are high above the average standard, think all people world wide have equal base resources to emerge their wealth from. That doesn't proove to be in most of US either. They cannot live up to their own ideal.

You going to fast for me here - can you parse this out?

It seems that this act has done a great dis-service to countries and peoples that have diverse non-violent views - what do you think?

[Conogelato]

(And of course we all saw that its a good thing some members of this forum don't have any power anywhere that counts!). [/B][/QUOTE]


everybody have power to help, and to try to develop conciences.

[Guv]

Nishantp: Apparently you only read the posts which agree with your point of view. I do not claim to know more than the FBI or the CIA about who did it. I answered |Ghost Ryder’s remark about my belief that some Islamic group did it. See previous post for my complete opinion.

Basically I said that the govt. needs some good evidence before taking action, but the best bet is that it is an Islamic group. They invented the idea of brainwashing gullible young people into being Kamikazes 800-1200 years ago, and have been doing it recently.

Except for the Japanese, I know of no other culture who used that fanatic approach in the last 100 years, and I do not think the Japanese are behind the atrocities.

DerFarm: I hope you do not think that I advocate war time suspension of due process and the reasonable doubt criteria for citizens of a country. Those concepts are designed to protect citizens from their own government, and should never be suspended. I remember what we did to Japanese Americans during WW2, and remember that my father and other Quakers opposed it to no avail.

What I do claim is that due process is not applicable to dealing with enemies during a war. A war is not conducted in a court room: Lessor, though not arbitrary whimsical, standards apply.

Kedaman: Some of what you have posted suggests that you do not believe that the US should attempt any violent actions against those responsible for what happened. I agree that violence is likely to stimulate more violence directed against us, but not going after the culprits seems even more likely to encourage them to continue with their fanatic methods.

I can remember Quaker pacificists during WW2 who claimed that one should distinguish between a rational person and a madman. They said that you had a chance of influencing a rational person with pacifism, but dealing with a lunatic could require killing him. Gandhi and his followers were successful in dealing with the English, but there is no way it would have worked against Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.

If you are capable of dealing violently with a fanatic, you should do so. You will never deter him by passive methods.

[kedaman]

Guv

I agree that violence is likely to stimulate more violence directed against us, but not going after the culprits seems even more likely to encourage them to continue with their fanatic methods.

I don't think you understand what options there are. Obviously there's a lot better reasons than that lunatics would have been in charge of the operation. US has put self in such position it is target for many countries for messing with others problems without being asked. The fact that you have the best economy and best weapons doesn't mean you are invincible. The ideology of US liberty instead makes it particularily voulnerable as a target for say terrorism; the low security. If this act of terrorism had failed the next would probably have been a lot bigger, and a lot more people would have died. It's time for US to wake up and consider what is wrong with their ideology, instead of acting all surprised about it and naively attack around the nearest accusable target, bringing down uncountable innocent lives, maybe start another world war. It's also time to forget the narrowminded egoism.

The biggest culprit is the ideology, it is flawed.

Kzin

You going to fast for me here - can you parse this out?

It seems that this act has done a great dis-service to countries and peoples that have diverse non-violent views - what do you think?

well you didn't know what was going on then, this was not meant as a response to the act of terrism, it was a response to those who was attacking each other for no informed reason and spreading misinformation. Also this was a response to those confused of what to do and advice to those who want peace.

Oh and to you qwestion, I got enlightened by this and everyone should get enlightened as well, this might just bring the world on the right tracks, if enough will.

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman


well you didn't know what was going on then,

Ok - I understand now!

Originally posted by kedaman
Oh and to you qwestion, I got enlightened by this and everyone should get enlightened as well, this might just bring the world on the right tracks, if enough will.

What did you learn?

[kedaman]

Originally posted by Kzin

What did you learn?

I could make up a long list To make it short: I invented a new ideology (It's probably nothing already thought of but to me it is revolutionary new)

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman

I could make up a long list To make it short: I invented a new ideology (It's probably nothing already thought of but to me it is revolutionary new)

Can you tell us?

[Guv]

Kedaman: What on earth do you think the USA should do?

Pacifiism is a wonderful sounding notion. How about some details on what you think we should do and what you think the results will be.

On many issues you profess to believe that anything is possible, nothing is provable, nothing is disprovable. On this subject you talk as though you have definite opinions on a course of action. Why not share those opinions with us?

[kedaman]

The original conflict causing the situation needs to be solved immediately, that's a questionmark I am uncertain of, but I can imagine US have to find out if they're asked to. If they proove them self worthy to solve it with reason then the world might forgive them to a certain level.
The ideology is a bit harder issue. How can a country reengineer itself when it has locked itself in this position? No way?

My ideology is based on end all dissent forever trough complete understanding between individuals. A full extermination of all hate by a technique to absorb and consume it instead of retaliating as well as preventing it to be generated by misunderstandment. There has to be a world wide agreement to educate this to people and I guess that it's going to spread if not as fast as a wildfire because of popularity. Under this, the world has to act as a single mass, so it needs to be exposed to this new ideology for a while, probably continous massmedia would do.

Once my ideology is fully established, the people living under the ideology of freedom can live in peace, as well as all any other nations. What do you do with resources spent on military? Well? What about education instead? What about resources in general? They're running out sooner or later, if the world is united, won't it be eaisier to come to an agreement on how to share them as well as plan a new future instead of looking into our current hopeless?
I didn't go into detail, I noticed, I just listed up the most essential results... I guess some could go on for ages into how this would revolutionize the world but I'm too tired for that.

What do you think?

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman

My ideology is based on end all dissent forever trough complete understanding between individuals.

A full extermination of all hate by a technique to absorb and consume it instead of retaliating as well as preventing it to be generated by misunderstandment.

So everone understands each other and there is no misunderstanding. Erm . . . good idea! Can you start on VBforums so that we can see how this works?

. . . and you've got some stuff to absorb hate too (wow - I hope this does not involve electrodes . . . )

Originally posted by kedaman

. . . if the world is united, won't it be eaisier to come to an agreement

yup - if everyone agrees with you I agree that you would find easier . . . that makes sense . . .

. . but . . .

[beachbum]

Yeah
I am also a bit intrigued by the irony of all of this. On one hand it is the stupidity of the masses that causes such hate and ill will and yet the solution is supposed to involve the masses agreeing to the single concept of an extermination of hate?
Regards
Stuart

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman
There has to be a world wide agreement to educate this to people . . . under this, the world has to act as a single mass, so it needs to be exposed to this new ideology for a while, probably continuous massmedia would do.

. . . once my ideology is fully established, the people living under the ideology of freedom can live in peace . . .

Jahwol, mein Furher . . . I vill order ze jackboots so ve can all march together . . .

Seriously - what happens when people dissent and say *I don't want any part of this*?

What happens when its all going quite well - basically most of the world agrees with you to varying extents and thinks by and large you are doing a good job (maybe better than anyone else who has tried)

Now lets say some bearded nutter in a cave on the other side of the world decides to massacre Kedamanites because they don't want to *act as a single mass* or *agreement to be educated*. What do you do then?

[kedaman]

We have to take advantage of the way society works right? I come to think of how they could just brainwas huge masses totally renewing the moral against violence and respect for the individual. That would be step one. Step two would be education to recognize and handle all kinds of conflict situations with reason, not violence. Hate absorbtion - tricky, well by letting out all the anger you have at someone or something for a while, you release it, I guess you could use this method, maybe advance it to function effectively and then just educate this world wide.

. . . that makes sense . . .

. . but . . .

Are we talking about the resources? Well the current scheme will stand until it needs to be changed, perhaps a more mature humanity can figure out better models later?

[Kzin]

Originally posted by kedaman
We have to take advantage of the way society works right? I come to think of how they could just brainwas huge masses totally renewing the moral against violence and respect for the individual. That would be step one. Step two would be education to recognize and handle all kinds of conflict situations with reason, not violence.

Critical point - *How does this system deal with those who don't believe in it?*

Originally posted by kedaman
Hate absorbtion - tricky, well by letting out all the anger you have at someone or something for a while, you release it, I guess you could use this method, maybe advance it to function effectively and then just educate this world wide.

Minor point - but I understood that it is quite well established by experimental psychologists that 'letting out' your anger doesn't work - but rather builds up a habit of anger

[kedaman]

Hmm about the critical point, this society doesn't work for those certain people as well. The exception are put in places where they can't harm the rest of the society, I guess that system would be preserved or better yet, they could find ways to deal with them as well.

[FantastichenEin]

I believe in this circumstance, America should count it's losses. I don't like the way that sounds, It could be accused of being defeatist. I don't see any other valid option.

What are the other options for the US(From this board):
1. Attack all terrorists groups - In doing this it would immediatly spawn new terrorist groups and a new hatred against America. You would be attacking terrorists for a very long time

2. Attack Afghanistahn - Why??? As I am dumbstruck to how this ever came about

3. Kill Bin Laden - Ok, this will kill the head of a terrorist group and maybe make everyone feel a little better. This would be the perfect solution if Bin Laden was the only person with the will and the means to launch an Attack like this - He was however, only the first.

This attack has exposed a massive vunurabilty to America (And most other modern countries) in showing that a large scale attack can be carried out by a few individuals rather than a full army. This is another reason for Non-Retaliation.

I don't have a resoulution to terrorism myself - but I firmly believe that attempting to counterstrike it, is not a solution.

[aknisely]

This attack has exposed a massive vunurabilty to America

America is not vulnurable simply because terrorists took what was, in essence, a shot below the belt. In the middle of a business meeting, I could run over and kick Mike Tyson in the head and knock him over. Does that mean he's vulnurable? Probably not. Does that make me stronger? No.

[nishantp]

Originally posted by aknisely
America is not vulnurable simply because terrorists took what was, in essence, a shot below the belt. In the middle of a business meeting, I could run over and kick Mike Tyson in the head and knock him over. Does that mean he's vulnurable? Probably not. Does that make me stronger? No.

Well said...but that example doesnt exactly fit. Yes he is vulnerable. Everyone is. You may not be stronger, but that doesnt matter. You could kill him. Therefor, he is vulnerable. The legal system is supposed to remove some of that vulnerability, but it can only protect us from those that are not willing to break the law. Terrorists are another story. America is very vulnerable, not only because of they're freedom-based government system, but also because of their firm stands on issues and situations throughout the world. It makes them a target. Everyone will always be vulnerable. Does that make them weak? obviously not.

[Guv]

kedaman: You are a genius! I know just how to implement your perfect system.

We print up a lot of leaflets and drop them on Isreal, Palestine, Ireland, Iraq, the Tutsis, the Hutsis, et cetera.

The leaflets will explain that peaceful methods are best. In a few weeks there will be no more trouble, and everybody can disband their military.

While we are at it, we can drop leaflets explaining to criminals how bad they are. Then we will be able to disband our police forces.

It is all so simple.

Another possibility is a world wide benovolent dictatorship that starts applying behavior modification to everybody at at birth. With the right techniques, we can have a world full of docile people. Until the next generation reaches maturity, we can use some of the techniques developed in the USSR to keep everybody under control.

As long as it is a benevolent dictatorship with high ideals, we can trust them to brainwash in the correct behavior.

[nishantp]

Guv - Were you reffering to my post in the other thread? Please clarify...

[kedaman]

Originally posted by Kzin


Jahwol, mein Furher . . . I vill order ze jackboots so ve can all march together . . .

Seriously - what happens when people dissent and say *I don't want any part of this*?

What happens when it's all going quite well - basically most of the world agrees with you to varying extents and thinks by and large you are doing a good job (maybe better than anyone else who has tried)

Now lets say some bearded nutter in a cave on the other side of the world decides to massacre Kedamanites because they don't want to *act as a single mass* or *agreement to be educated*. What do you do then?

Somehow this bypassed when i replied last time.

Ok a big critical point actually. Who would not want to be part of the system? Well I'm definitely not sure. If the mass media can't reach everywhere and there is people with "evil inside" where the society is weak and everyone is isolated there's a potential threat. In the tightly bound society where everyone will immediately be affected by the ideology, and also I suppose critiminal rate is higher as well as intelligence, the chance of oppositions is much much higher. To deal with this the process has to go step by step to ensure everyone is following. Those who not will be requring more processing than the others.

IF say a little group of opposing nutters would isolize themselves from the rest of the society and hide in some cave, until nobody expects there to be any more but eh.. true kedamanites, and thereby start to disband all military forces, police forces and weapons of all kind and finally forget all ways of defend yourself, you really have a critical situation.

I don't think the police forces will be ever disbanded, there will always be nutters among the society and they would have to be catched and brainwashed again. The police force especially will undergo a more stricter brainwash and educated with the techniques that might not be avaliable to the rest. They would protect the society from all kinds of harm.

The military forces would though need to be disbanded, in the rate the threats are disappearing.

Another possibility is a world wide benovolent dictatorship that starts applying behavior modification to everybody at at birth. With the right techniques, we can have a world full of docile people. Until the next generation reaches maturity, we can use some of the techniques developed in the USSR to keep everybody under control.

As long as it is a benevolent dictatorship with high ideals, we can trust them to brainwash in the correct behavior.

I don't think the dictatorship would be safe enough, I'm definitely not going to say someone has to stand at the top, he could on one hand get shot (chances are high as dictatorship doesn't sound good to people) or the other hand misuse his position or in worst case turn my ideology into something else.

Actually simply an agreement between the current nations to start to implement the ideology, and all other internal business stays intact.

[scoutt]

Originally posted by thinktank
The testing phase of a Blackbox {aka FLIGHT DATA RECORDER}
involves heating it to around 2000 C.

An Explosion could easily set off temperatures much greater than that.

they were also built to withstand a jet fuel fire.

and yes wise words Kedaman