VB6 is DEAD!

[DataMiser]

Could you have written a mobile app in VB6 using that control? I'm not sure but I wouldn't have thought so. If not then I guess neither handling it at all still means that VB.NET handled it as well as VB6.

I tried for a while to do them in VB5 with the CE toolkit but not much success there. Prior to moving to VB.Net 2003 I was using EVB 3.0 which did have a com control of sorts. or at least I think it did.

I was a bit shocked the VB.Net did not have some method for talking to the serial ports, after all even GWBasic could do that. Of course it got added and all was well again. I think VB2005 was quite a jump forward in many ways.

[jmcilhinney]

I was a bit shocked the VB.Net did not have some method for talking to the serial ports, after all even GWBasic could do that. Of course it got added and all was well again. I think VB2005 was quite a jump forward in many ways.

You're right about the 2005 generation being a big step forward. As for serial ports, I'm guessing that Microsoft figured that they were being phased out anyway so why bother supporting a dying technology. They probably underestimated the number of people who were still using physical ports or, going forward, virtual serial ports with physical USB ports. Assuming that's the case then, to their credit they did listen and address the issue in 2005.

[FunkyDexter]

Hmmm... I think that some, including myself, were interpreting that as saying that the VB6 Runtime would be distributed with Windows until 2024 but, upon reading it again, I now see that it looks to mean that the VB6 Runtime is supported on Windows 8.1 and Windows 8.1 will be supported until 2024. Rather a big difference.

Ah yes, I hadn't read it like that but you're right.

Axisdj, then yes, technically you're at risk. I still think you'd be being premature if you started rewriting before you actually see whether 9 will or won't support the runtime though. Even if the statement doesn't say that 9 will support the runtime it does say that they don't want you to have to rewrite your apps. And even if 9 doesn't support the runtime I'm willing to bet there'll be easier paths forward than a complete rewrite. Emulators, for example.

[jmcilhinney]

FYI,

I do not use serial communication. All my hardware communication is through a c++ dll.

I will have to do some more research, but from what I seen Delphi increments each version with mainly improvements, and something written in 1995, could very easily be converted and compiled in 2014. From what I understand there was never a version that completely broke everything as in vb6-.net. Correct me if I am wrong.

WP

But you didn't write a Delphi app in 1995. You wrote a VB6 app so surely it would be easier to migrate it to VB.NET, which shares a syntax and reimplements a lot of VB6 functions, than to move to a completely new language like Delphi.

[Joacim Andersson]

I will have to do some more research, but from what I seen Delphi increments each version with mainly improvements, and something written in 1995, could very easily be converted and compiled in 2014. From what I understand there was never a version that completely broke everything as in vb6-.net. Correct me if I am wrong.

You're wrong. They have introduced breaking changes at, at least, 3 different occasions.

[axisdj]

But you didn't write a Delphi app in 1995. You wrote a VB6 app so surely it would be easier to migrate it to VB.NET, which shares a syntax and reimplements a lot of VB6 functions, than to move to a completely new language like Delphi.

you are right, and what a big mistake. Because if I chose the latter(vb 6), with only small mods at a time I would have my app compiled on the latest version today.

Emulators will not work for me, my customer expect the app to run just like any other, jumping through hoops is not acceptable.

So here is my train of thought.

Lets say I move from vb6 to .net. I would pretty much have to re-write my app for many reasons, the last import I did rendered 80,000 errors in vb.net.
So after all that work I would have the same app as I do now, but it may run slower, is not native and open to de-compilation. Yes I know .net native is coming but who knows how that will turn out. And at the end I am still at the mercy of MS who killed 100k lines of my code for the sake of OOP purity, and can only run on windows.

So lets say I re-write to delphi. BTW there is a convertor that would convert many of my classes which would speed things up. So what is the benefit: I get a native compiled app, that is able to be run cross-platform, maybe with better performance, on a language that has not broken previous versions completely like vb6- .net, that is open source, and free, with syntax that is more like vb6 than c++(QT Creator). I really think there is no competition here. As much as I hate moving to delphi because of some of the strange syntax, I think it is the right choice for me.

[axisdj]

You're wrong. They have introduced breaking changes at, at least, 3 different occasions.

can you show me where I can find this information, I think minor things have broken, but nothing like the vb6-.net where you are just left %&** out of luck with all you 100k LOC.

Show Me, cause I cannot find it. All the change logs I have seen only adds functionality.

[axisdj]

From what I can find, the only support/ major break they ever did was the removal of .net support...

http://delphi.about.com/cs/azindex/a/dhistory_3.htm

[techgnome]

I get a native compiled app, that is able to be run cross-platform,

There's a common misconception about the write-once, run everywhere "promise" of cross-platform... to the best of my knowledge it doesn't exist. Even with JAva, it's still not a completely fulfilled promise. The problem is that "native" component of compilation. The resulting bytes for a Windows machine is different from a linux, Apple or anything else. So in order for your app to be available on other platforms, you will need that platform to compile on... now it's possible you may (MAY) be able to write-once and compile everywhere with little to no changes... but I suspect there are just enough variations in the platforms where some minor tweaking between the different versions. There's a reason the Netflix app on my Wii works differently from the version I have on my Roku...

Unless things have changed - which is very much possible. I'm not convinced they have though.

-tg

[axisdj]

There's a common misconception about the write-once, run everywhere "promise" of cross-platform... to the best of my knowledge it doesn't exist. Even with JAva, it's still not a completely fulfilled promise. The problem is that "native" component of compilation. The resulting bytes for a Windows machine is different from a linux, Apple or anything else. So in order for your app to be available on other platforms, you will need that platform to compile on... now it's possible you may (MAY) be able to write-once and compile everywhere with little to no changes... but I suspect there are just enough variations in the platforms where some minor tweaking between the different versions. There's a reason the Netflix app on my Wii works differently from the version I have on my Roku...

Unless things have changed - which is very much possible. I'm not convinced they have though.

-tg

I agree, but cross-platform is possible. You just place conditional logic where it is applicable..

[Joacim Andersson]

Another example is when they introduced Unicode and completely changed the data types String, Char, and PChar in Delphi 2010 (or maybe it was in Delphi 2009, I can't remember)

So lets say I re-write to delphi. BTW there is a convertor that would convert many of my classes which would speed things up. So what is the benefit: I get a native compiled app, that is able to be run cross-platform, maybe with better performance, on a language that has not broken previous versions completely like vb6- .net, that is open source, and free, with syntax that is more like vb6 than c++(QT Creator). I really think there is no competition here. As much as I hate moving to delphi because of some of the strange syntax, I think it is the right choice for me.

What? Delphi is not open source? The latest version cost €4159 + VAT (that's € not $). You also don't get cross-platform by default. The VCL is still Windows only, to get cross-platform you need to use FireMonkey which doesn't have nearly as many components. Read This before you decide to go with FireMonkey.

I'm not saying that Delphi is a bad choice, I've been using it for many years. However it's very expensive and you don't get any service packs or bug fixes. If there is a bug you have to wait for the next version where they hopefully have corrected it and then pay the upgrade fee to get the latest. Which will (currently) cost you around €2600+VAT. They release a new version every year.

[axisdj]

Another example is when they introduced Unicode and completely changed the data types String, Char, and PChar in Delphi 2010 (or maybe it was in Delphi 2009, I can't remember)
What? Delphi is not open source? The latest version cost €4159 + VAT (that's € not $). You also don't get cross-platform by default. The VCL is still Windows only, to get cross-platform you need to use FireMonkey which doesn't have nearly as many components. Read This before you decide to go with FireMonkey.

I'm not saying that Delphi is a bad choice, I've been using it for many years. However it's very expensive and you don't get any service packs or bug fixes. If there is a bug you have to wait for the next version where they hopefully have corrected it and then pay the upgrade fee to get the latest. Which will (currently) cost you around €2600+VAT. They release a new version every year.

Changing data types is hardly breaking everything....

Let me clarify, I am talking about Lazarus IDE, it's free and open source.. Language is the same used in the delphi product.

WP

[Joacim Andersson]

Oh boy, do you realize how often you use strings in a project? I had to spend two month making changes to one of my Delphi projects because of this "tiny" change. I've updated large VB6 projects to VB.Net in less time than that.

[Shaggy Hiker]

FYI,

I do not use serial communication. All my hardware communication is through a c++ dll.

I will have to do some more research, but from what I seen Delphi increments each version with mainly improvements, and something written in 1995, could very easily be converted and compiled in 2014. From what I understand there was never a version that completely broke everything as in vb6-.net. Correct me if I am wrong.

WP

I took something in VB6 and very easily converted and compiled it in .NET, so it's a matter of degree. In both cases, there doesn't appear to be a compiler that will take the old code and convert to the new with the click of a button (or less than that), so in both cases there is some amount of effort in conversion, but VB6 to .NET was trivial. A project that took me months to write took hours to convert, and much of that was due to redesign.

[RobDog888]

Hmmm... I think that some, including myself, were interpreting that as saying that the VB6 Runtime would be distributed with Windows until 2024 but, upon reading it again, I now see that it looks to mean that the VB6 Runtime is supported on Windows 8.1 and Windows 8.1 will be supported until 2024. Rather a big difference.

I would have to agree on this

[Shaggy Hiker]

Lets say I move from vb6 to .net. I would pretty much have to re-write my app for many reasons, the last import I did rendered 80,000 errors in vb.net.

How did you even do that? The number of errors I get caps out at about 100. If you are talking about the conversion tool, that's understandable. It should never have been added because it was so terrible. I never used it, so I don't know. Was that reporting errors way above the cap for the compiler itself? It may well be. Copy and paste often did a better job than that converter seemed to.

So after all that work I would have the same app as I do now, but it may run slower, is not native and open to de-compilation.

You may well have the same app that you do now, but it will likely run faster from what little I can find on Google. In my experience, it will run at the same speed. As for the not native and de-compilation, that's a false fear as I've already stated. Like I said before, I'm currently re-writing a pair of VB6 apps where I don't have the source code. They will work slightly better than before (because of some advances in availability of external data, not due to code changes), but they will look and feel the same. Any code coder doesn't need your source code to re-create your program. The only question is whether or not they will. You're actually a whole lot better off if they do steal the source code, because you then have legal recourse. You have none if they don't have your source and still write a program that does the same thing (unless you patent the ability to click on something).

And at the end I am still at the mercy of MS who killed 100k lines of my code for the sake of OOP purity, and can only run on windows.

So, if that is your reason, why would you pick Delphi? It's another proprietary language. It has a history of breaking changes that is FAR worse than MS. It's not exactly the first word when it comes to cross-platform. And finally, you already have your hardware interface stuff in a C++ dll, which means that you have all kinds of options available.

At this point, you are looking at a total re-write, and just seem to be trying to figure out what to write in. The easy route is .NET, which does give you a route to cross-platform via Xamarin. However, if you are set against that, the obvious choice would be either Java or JavaScript. As much as I dislike JS and feel that it is a language that will change, it is probably the most cross platform, non-proprietary, language in existence today. Yes, it would be utterly different from VB6, but that's not necessarily bad. If you move to something sufficiently similar, you will keep expecting it to behave the same way, so you will keep tripping over what differences exist.

So lets say I re-write to delphi. BTW there is a convertor that would convert many of my classes which would speed things up. So what is the benefit: I get a native compiled app, that is able to be run cross-platform, maybe with better performance, on a language that has not broken previous versions completely like vb6- .net, that is open source, and free, with syntax that is more like vb6 than c++(QT Creator). I really think there is no competition here. As much as I hate moving to delphi because of some of the strange syntax, I think it is the right choice for me.

I certainly don't know Delphi all that well, but what you just described doesn't match what I thought I knew about it or what others have said on here. The language started with Borland and is now Embarcadero. What's open source about that? I also don't see anything free other than a free trial.

[Shaggy Hiker]

I agree, but cross-platform is possible. You just place conditional logic where it is applicable..

No, it's more severe than that.

I'm currently working with some stuff that is truly cross platform. I didn't write it, but I know a bit about it. It's a piece of software for writing essentially scripts for data capture, which works across platforms and devices. In our case, we are evaluating not the software, but a sampling script written in the software on Android and iPad tablets. The people writing the script just so some simple and quick work, deploy the script, and it runs on the device in effectively a virtual machine. There is no conditional compilation, it's just a script. However, the behavior on the two platforms is dramatically different. On the iPad, zooming in on a map acts to filter a different dataset, while on the Android it doesn't. The guys writing this didn't add that feature to one and forget it on the other, it's just that the same script had the feature on one and not on the other. It's like it's different software.

You see this with web all the time. If you don't test on all the potential targets of your software, you are going to be surprised by things.

[FunkyDexter]

Changing data types is hardly breaking everything....

really?! That's a potentially massive change. Joacim could probably fill in the details but I imagine that could cause the kind of behaviour changes that a compiler wouldn't catch. That would be a complete nightmare.

Anyway, as I see it this announcement doesn't change your situation one jot from what it was a month ago. OK, at first I missread it and thought it actually gave you more security, which it doesn't, but it certainly doesn't take anything away. We've all been screaming at you for over a year on this forum that VB6 wasn't coming back and I'm sure we haven't been the only ones doing so. I'm sure you've heard that message from plenty of other sources too. I struggle to believe that you really believed it was coming back so this announcement doesn't change anything. All it's done is removed doubt.

So you're still working in a language who's future is limited. You still know you're working in a language who's future is limited. You still need to either accept that limited future or move to a different platform. You still have the same alternatives available to you. You could still use .Net if you want a familiar and reasonably priced alternative. You could still use delphi if you want an unfamiliar and exhorbitantly priced one. You could still use Java if you want a free and unfamiliar alternative that gives you a good shot at going cross platform. You can still pick C if you're a total masochist (actually I used to quite like working in C back in the day but, Christ, was it difficult to get anything high level achieved). You can still pick an open source option want to make your future REALLY uncertain or would like to spend time writing your own language instead of writing your own app.

Nothing's changed. You're still exactly where you were a decade ago except now you know the end is coming. Stop procrastinating and make a decision. Ten years ago I'd have had some sympathy for your situation but ten years of indecision removes that sympathy. In the words of Woody Harelson: "It's time to nut up or shut up".

[Niya]

Well all you .net folks told us it would not happen:

http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/fo...improved-versi

Time to move on, Delphi here I come. All my embedded devices will ship with Linux!

It's Over

Sad DAY

Lots of hard work to be done, here we go!!!

I find it alarming that anyone was actually surprised by this. Did you guys actually expect work to be resumed on VB6 ?

[NeedSomeAnswers]

I find it alarming that anyone was actually surprised by this.

I am alarmed at your ability to be alarmed at anything in this thread!

[dclamp]

I am alarmed at your ability to be alarmed at anything in this thread!

This is alarming in it self.

[axisdj]

How did you even do that? The number of errors I get caps out at about 100. If you are talking about the conversion tool, that's understandable. It should never have been added because it was so terrible. I never used it, so I don't know. Was that reporting errors way above the cap for the compiler itself? It may well be. Copy and paste often did a better job than that converter seemed to.




You may well have the same app that you do now, but it will likely run faster from what little I can find on Google. In my experience, it will run at the same speed. As for the not native and de-compilation, that's a false fear as I've already stated. Like I said before, I'm currently re-writing a pair of VB6 apps where I don't have the source code. They will work slightly better than before (because of some advances in availability of external data, not due to code changes), but they will look and feel the same. Any code coder doesn't need your source code to re-create your program. The only question is whether or not they will. You're actually a whole lot better off if they do steal the source code, because you then have legal recourse. You have none if they don't have your source and still write a program that does the same thing (unless you patent the ability to click on something).



So, if that is your reason, why would you pick Delphi? It's another proprietary language. It has a history of breaking changes that is FAR worse than MS. It's not exactly the first word when it comes to cross-platform. And finally, you already have your hardware interface stuff in a C++ dll, which means that you have all kinds of options available.

At this point, you are looking at a total re-write, and just seem to be trying to figure out what to write in. The easy route is .NET, which does give you a route to cross-platform via Xamarin. However, if you are set against that, the obvious choice would be either Java or JavaScript. As much as I dislike JS and feel that it is a language that will change, it is probably the most cross platform, non-proprietary, language in existence today. Yes, it would be utterly different from VB6, but that's not necessarily bad. If you move to something sufficiently similar, you will keep expecting it to behave the same way, so you will keep tripping over what differences exist.





I certainly don't know Delphi all that well, but what you just described doesn't match what I thought I knew about it or what others have said on here. The language started with Borland and is now Embarcadero. What's open source about that? I also don't see anything free other than a free trial.

I Am Speaking About LAZARUS, wich is an open source Delphi/object Pascal IDE and compiler....

I am fairly certain all the things I said about Lazarus/Object Pascal/ Delphi are accurate.

[Niya]

You guys should just stop screwing around and move to VB.Net already. All this talk about Delphi and Lazarus is just childish pouting simply because MS did something you didn't want them to do. Get over it already. I did.

[RobDog888]

DOS 6.22 is the future!

[axisdj]

You guys should just stop screwing around and move to VB.Net already. All this talk about Delphi and Lazarus is just childish pouting simply because MS did something you didn't want them to do. Get over it already. I did.

Ok, so you moved on, That is great. Can you privately or publicly show me the products you create/sell?

Why do you say lazarus is childish. It is 100% OOP, what makes it childish.

WP

[dclamp]

DOS 6.22 is the future!

start a petition

[Niya]

Why do you say lazarus is childish. It is 100% OOP, what makes it childish.

Are you trolling ?

[DataMiser]

DOS 6.22 is the future!

We need a new version of OS/2

[Niya]

We need a new BASICA.

[SJWhiteley]

I'm going to call my pet rat VeeBeeSix so when he dies a can say 'VeeBeeSix is dead'.

[nemaroller]

However, if you are set against that, the obvious choice would be either Java or JavaScript. As much as I dislike JS and feel that it is a language that will change, it is probably the most cross platform, non-proprietary, language in existence today.

As someone who started in 8-bit Basic, moved to OOP and trained in Java during college, then to VB6 because unlike Java it could actually do GUIs well, and then moved to VB.NET because it was OOP, then to C# because it was more syntactially like Java and C but worked well on Windows - and who has spent most of my professional career programming web applications first in Web Forms, then in ASP.NET MVC, it astounds me that Javascript is making strides on the server realm by vehicles like Node.js.

Further astounding that C# is borrowing dynamic pieces of the js language to compete on the server with technologies like Ruby on Rails, and Node.

And then you have the constant drum of improvements to HTML5 and ECMAScript which 'promise' to bring cross-platform capabilities to every device, which in a sense, it has done already - every time you visit a website, they're all interactive JS applications and barely static web documents - all rendered in a runtime called your browser. Most of that cross-browser capability thanks to frameworks like jQuery, Angular, Backbone and YUI.

As far as VB6 - there's nothing about it I have missed other than the fact it was the first language I used to build my first salable application, but I probably couldn't fix a lick of code in it since I've long since forgotten it.

[Fatina]

See this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/magazine/dn745870.aspx

Megan Winter: Friday, June 6, 2014 7:46 AM
For instance, VB.NET has very few programmers, that is a failure !

VB.NET was born of hate, the main reason is the decision from 2002. While VB.NET was shoved down our throat, VB6 was/is becoming more and more popular and had/has more and more open source projects for various fields.

"a major technical achievement" is when the new language it is taken over by the community of developers. This never happened to VB.NET in 12 years.

When other programming languages ​​are preferred, then you have to admit that something is not right with your product. That is what Paul Yuknewicz did not realize when he rejected the idea "Bring back Classic Visual Basic, an improved version of VB6". This idea had the quickest climb to the uservoice top 5. Probably they were scared when they saw how quickly the VB6 idea was climbing.

Now, Paul Yuknewicz, instead of being regarded as a hero in the VB6 community, it will be regarded with hatred and many will write very bad things about him (for a good reason).

Let me tell you why you are the deeply deluded one: by your logic, Turbo Pascal, QBasic and C# would have to be on the first positions in the TIOBE top 10 because are older than VB6! But it is not so, thus it is best not to rush in early statements.

[dilettante]

Interesting if somewhat rushed and incoherent look back:

Trust, Users and The Developer Division

At the end of the day, developers walked away from Microsoft not because they missed a platform paradigm shift. They left because they lost all trust. You wanted to go somewhere to have your code investments work and continue to work.

And make no mistake, staying with VB6 is as much "walking away" as moving to Java.


For the unaware: David Sobeski was a former Microsoft General Manager.

Ex-insiders are now free to reveal what a mess things have been.

[DataMiser]

@Fatina

Where you do come up with such non sense? VB.Net has very few programers? Non sense. Based on someone earlier talking about the signatures on the petition which was under 10k being a lot I suppose there must be less than 2,000 people using VB.Net and all of them registered here

At any rate it is no surprise that they will not be doing another version of VB6, most of us knew that 10 years ago.

[Nightwalker83]

Wasn't an option in my case as I was developing in VB.Net for mobile devices.

Doesn't the VB6 interop, etc in .NET allow you to write for COM devices from within .NET?

[DataMiser]

VB6 can not compile code for ARM processors

And the COM I was referring to is serial port rather than ActiveX

[Nightwalker83]

VB6 can not compile code for ARM processors

And the COM I was referring to is serial port rather than ActiveX

Yes, I know! What I was think there must be a way in .Net is communicate with legacy systems?

[jmcilhinney]

VB.NET was born of hate

That is just plain dumb and just shows how twisted some VB6 developers have become. Even if you have some logical arguments in favour of VB6, which there obviously are, comments like this simply undermine everything else you have to say because they make you look crazy.

[Nightwalker83]

Seems that Fatina is an extremist and chooses to take the word of the internet as truth rather than like everything with a grain of salt.

[DataMiser]

Yes, I know! What I was think there must be a way in .Net is communicate with legacy systems?

Yes there are methods in .Net for this, you can use some stuff from VB6 and you can use the ocx controls.

My point was that as of Framework 1.1 which shipped with VB 2003 there was no method to talk to a serial port included and while you could make MSComm work on a PC you could not do so on mobile devices which is what I was developing for at the time. Framework 2.0 added the serial port support and many other things, also improvements made in the IDE in the 2005 release and rapidly became my preferred tool for mobile devices and many of my PC tasks as well though I still use VB6 quite a bit as well.