The iPhone 4S

[Shaggy Hiker]

Not going to bother going through the rest of the thread because it would be pointless to do so. Buying a phone is like so many other consumer devices in which you purchase something that suits you. You may not care to use voice software, but to someone else that may make their lives much easier. You may not care for a camera in the phone, but for me that might mean a decision in choosing one over the other. Reading through this discussion I'm not seeing discussion on why the hardware/technology is better in one phone over the other. Rather I'm seeing a lot of subjective opinions on what people think is a good phone for them and why the iPhone is not that choice. If you don't want or need the features that a smartphone offers, well of course you're not going to be interested in the device.

Good points, all of it. My point of view is a bit different with this, though. You know what I'd like to have? One of those old LED watches. Now that would be cool. You'd have to be pretty old to remember them, as they were in existence for only a couple years in the 80s before the VASTLY superior LCD watches wiped them out. Of course, if I had such a watch, it wouldn't compare to what I am currently wearing, but it would be pretty neat for no other reason than that it would be so obscure.

When it comes to things like smart phones, web apps, and the like, the newest thing is often touted as being 'great'. It isn't, of course, and we all know that. When I bought a 286 back in 92, it was SO much faster than the 8086 that I had been using that it made a tangible difference. Graphs that had taken ten minutes to draw on the screen took less than a single minute!!! That was awesome. Of course, looking back on it, it wasn't awesome at all. It was only an incremental improvement on what had come before. Those graphs are now instantaneous as far as I can perceive.

The same is true of web and mobile. Everything on the market currently sucks. It may be the best we have, but it sucks, and the fact that it is the best we have just means that we have no better alternative. Anybody who doesn't think it sucks needs their head examined. Why do I have to wait a full second for a web page to load? That's absurd. When I write an app, if the next form doesn't show up instantly, I know I have some tinkering to do, yet web designers are alright with a second or three of load time. Why? Because better doesn't yet exist. It will, though.

The same is true for phones. All the smart phones on the market today are terrible. They don't meet my needs, so why would I buy one? The people who do buy them are settling for an inadequate device that will certainly be replaced by a vastly superior device within a couple years at most. Is the 4s good? No, it's quite bad, but it is the best that Apple puts out today. We all know that in a couple years there will be a phone out there that makes the 4s look like trash, but that is because it is trash. It's just the best trash out there today.

I figured out what I wanted in a phone, surveyed the population on the market, and chose not to buy. There isn't a phone out there that will do. But that is going to change. That phone is coming, and one day we will look back on the iPhone 4 as being archaic as those old LED watches. I had one of those, at one time. I wish I still had one, just for the retro look. They were crap. The LED display took so much power that you had to press a button to read the time because, if you left the display on all the time, you'd be changing batteries every few weeks, or less.

[Shaggy Hiker]

and another thing, would it hurt them to sell the smart phones with a walkthrough of how they are built fromm the white sand to chip stage ?

Yeah, that would hurt. People would be so bewildered that it would cause numerous 'deer in the headlights' accidents.

Would you really expect that the average consumer would want to pay for the extra printing and material cost associated with a description of how silicon chips are made when they buy a phone? That would be the most baffling inclusion I have ever heard of, especially for Apple to include that, since they don't make the chips used in their phones (nor does any other phone manufacturer, as far as I know), so Apple would be including a manual on a part of the development process that they have no involvement with. You might as well ask for them to include a booklet on lithium mining.

[BackWoodsCoder]

Very good points there, Shaggy. What you just said was precisely the same reason why I still have an AMD athlon 64 that's pushing close to 10 years as my main machine. Sure each year I could have bought a new mobo and cpu, upgraded the RAM, and have a "current" machine. Problem is "current" machines offered me nothing that my existing machine couldn't do. Ok so Windows boots 10 seconds quicker, firefox loads up 3 seconds faster, I can have more windows open without causing severe slowdown *yawn*. Who cares? About the only thing I could say is that I might be able to run the latest games at the highest settings. Nothing there to me was worth justifying the 300-500$ cost in upgrades.

I held the same POV with cellphones, in fact the only reason I'm getting the iPhone now is that my cellphone is literally on life support. I got out of the "need the latest and greatest" mindset during the Pentium era when the machines began to reach 1 GHz speeds. Once we got there everything became incremental and insignificant. Hell, my father still runs a P4 1 Ghz machine and loves it with no plans on upgrading it because it would be pointless for him to do so. Really, how much better can a quad core make your computing experience when all you do is read and write emails and type up reviews.

I think you really have it right. At the core of it, it's a phone. It needs to make phonecalls, receive phonecalls, and produce clarity on both ends. Like you said (and i think even much sooner than you wrote, maybe two years) the iPhone 4s will be looked at like a dinosaur which best serves as a paperweight or museum piece. Something new and fancy will come to take its place, but again, at the heart of it it will just be a phone with some bells and whistles and a shiny paint job.

Also, for the record, I still own a Pulsar LED watch

[kleinma]

Yeah, that would hurt. People would be so bewildered that it would cause numerous 'deer in the headlights' accidents.

Would you really expect that the average consumer would want to pay for the extra printing and material cost associated with a description of how silicon chips are made when they buy a phone? That would be the most baffling inclusion I have ever heard of, especially for Apple to include that, since they don't make the chips used in their phones (nor does any other phone manufacturer, as far as I know), so Apple would be including a manual on a part of the development process that they have no involvement with. You might as well ask for them to include a booklet on lithium mining.

Samsung makes a lot (or all) of the chips used in their own phones (they also make chips that are in a lot of other peoples phones, like Apples for the time being), Qualcomm used to before they spun off their consumer product line to kyocera. However, your standard user has a hard enough time even getting through a 5 page instruction manual, let alone information on how the thing was made, so yeah, I do agree with you there

[RhinoBull]

...I think you really have it right. At the core of it, it's a phone. It needs to make phonecalls, receive phonecalls, and produce clarity on both ends. Like you said (and i think even much sooner than you wrote, maybe two years) the iPhone 4s will be looked at like a dinosaur which best serves as a paperweight or museum piece. Something new and fancy will come to take its place, but again, at the heart of it it will just be a phone with some bells and whistles and a shiny paint job.

I tend to disagree. These days it's no longer about the phone only - it's about being able to communicate efficiently.
Whether it's for business or pleasure isn't relevant. Stop living in the 90's.
And after all it's actually nice to have in your hands something that really stands out (not in terms of "shiny paint job" but rather quality).

[Icyculyr]

No you won't. You might have a significantly better camera, games console, personal organiser, robotic secratary and general gadget but your phone experience isn't going to be significantly better in any way.

Actually, I will. By "phone", I meant smartphone but nonetheless, call quality, 3G speed as well as battery life is improved.

I think that's my problem with this. For all of the above there's a better solution. It just may not all be bundled on to the same gadget. Smart-phones move you into a world where you compromise quality for convenience. You don't need to carry a bulky camera any more but the quality of the shots you'll take won't be as good as if you did (the content'll be rubbish too if the general contents of facebook is anything to go by). You'll be able read on the train without carrying a book, but I like books and I really don't believe the experience is the same. You'll be able to listen to music wherever you are, but I'd rather listen to music in comfortable armchair with a glass of wine.

Convenience is all well and good but not if it destroys the experience. Then again maybe I'm just old. I'd still rather visit my freinds than phone them and I'd rather phone them than text them. Life should be inconvenient sometimes because that also means life can be slow. And a life lived at break-neck pace is a life where no experience is ever truly apreciated.

Mmm, I've always liked having everything in one -- that works well for me. If I just had a standard cell phone, I'd not lug a portable games console, camera, video camera, etc., around the place so I'd miss out on the times I might need them when I'm out.

My phone gets somewhere around 5-7 days, which would be 120-150 hours, roughly. It was better when the battery was newer, and the extended battery lasted even longer. However, the phone is now pretty old, the extended battery wore out and they are no longer available. The regular battery that I have is also fading a bit. If I spend the whole day on the phone, which I never do, I'd probably use up this battery in a day. I think I can still find replacements for this battery, but the times they are a changin'.

Ah, so all day. That's pretty good.

[Shaggy Hiker]

Ah, so all day. That's pretty good.

????

I'm not sure why you picked that one piece out of what I stated. The only way that the current phone, with an old battery, would last only one day is if I talked on the phone for the entire day. In normal use, it would be more like a week, though I actually don't know. I think I plug it in once a week, or once every 10 days, or something. It isn't very often.

[Icyculyr]

????

I'm not sure why you picked that one piece out of what I stated. The only way that the current phone, with an old battery, would last only one day is if I talked on the phone for the entire day. In normal use, it would be more like a week, though I actually don't know. I think I plug it in once a week, or once every 10 days, or something. It isn't very often.

You can't accurately compare real world usage. You can however compare continuous usage. I took from it that you can talk on that phone (with an old battery) for about 12 to 16 hours before it dies, is that not correct? I'm comparing it to smartphones which is why that's what I'm interested in. I wonder how long it'll be until they catch up.

[i00]

You're actually very wrong. This isn't simple voice recognition, Siri is very advanced and capable of understanding context and processing reasonably complex commands. I'd suggest you read up about what it can actually do before you go insisting it's capable of running smoothly on a 4. If you insist on saying otherwise, I shall wait to be proven right when it's fully tested.

Additionally, you seem to be totally clueless about what's changed in the 4S to say that the there's not much new aside from Siri. Oh, and sure the 4's camera is good but the 4S leap frogs it, and does the same for video recording too.

RE: "This isn't simple voice recognition, Siri is very advanced and capable of understanding context and processing reasonably complex commands"

Hate to say this but the phone requires no processing power to process the voice commands... because it doesn't do it. The reason Siri requires an Internet connection is because it records your voice and sends the recording to some server... THE SERVER DOES ALL OF THE PROCESSING and just sends back the command to the phone telling it what it should do.

Also ... think this is interesting:



This is in Mar 2011... more app growth in android market ... 16% as opposed to apples 6% ... also android has more free apps

Kris

[Icyculyr]

RE: "This isn't simple voice recognition, Siri is very advanced and capable of understanding context and processing reasonably complex commands"

Hate to say this but the phone requires no processing power to process the voice commands... because it doesn't do it. The reason Siri requires an Internet connection is because it records your voice and sends the recording to some server... THE SERVER DOES ALL OF THE PROCESSING and just sends back the command to the phone telling it what it should do.

Also ... think this is interesting:

<snip>

This is in Mar 2011... more app growth in android market ... 16% as opposed to apples 6% ... also android has more free apps

Kris

I've learned a fair bit more about Siri since then. Although I'm basing my knowledge on a forum user who seems incredibly educated on the subject.

You're wrong about a few things, but you are correct in that most of the processing is done on Apple's server. At least one of the SGX543's is used to break down long speech into very small strings to send back to Apple. Additionally, it's also used for filtering background noise and other things.

[baja_yu]

I'd love to see what that 'educated forum user' says once jailbreakers (or Apple once satisfied with how many iPhone 4Ss they have sold) enables Siri on other devices. And even more so, a few early benchmarks suggest that iPad 2 is still more powerful than iPhone 4S which should prove that the argument about it not being enough for Siri is BS.

[abhijit]

I just typed in http://iphone4s.com/ in my browser and someone's parked that domain.

[Icyculyr]

I'd love to see what that 'educated forum user' says once jailbreakers (or Apple once satisfied with how many iPhone 4Ss they have sold) enables Siri on other devices. And even more so, a few early benchmarks suggest that iPad 2 is still more powerful than iPhone 4S which should prove that the argument about it not being enough for Siri is BS.

Of course the iPad 2 is more powerful and I never suggested it wasn't powerful enough for Siri.

[baja_yu]

So why then do you think Siri isn't available for iPad 2? What does the "educated forum user" say about that?

[techgnome]

@i00 - meh, that graphic doesn't mean much out of context, specifically how were the metrics obtained, and measured. +16&#37; ... ok... of what though? If I have a base of 100 apps and I load 16 new ones, that's a 16% increase in apps... but it still isn't much. My competitor on the other hand has 100,000 apps and adds 16,000 new ones, that's also 16%, much more impressive. Granted iWhatever and Google apps are closer, but you also have to look at the distribution methods... Apple employs a very strict set of testing and validation... so there's a longer time to market. Google app store on the other hand, is more freely open, meaning just about and Thomas, Richard or Harry can put their app out there. Does it also take into consideration apps listed multiple times (some have a free or lite version as well as a paid/full version)... and what about the alternative markets? Amazon also has their own version of the app store... it duplicates things you find on the Google App Store... so if I have an app listed in both, is it added twice? or once?

So, the graphic, while all nice and purdy, is meaningless.

-tg

[Shaggy Hiker]

wonder how long it'll be until they catch up.

Amen!!

Batteries are holding back this world, frankly. The best battery on the market today has a truly pathetic energy density when compared to other power sources. A significant increase in the energy density of batteries would revolutionize the world. We are seeing increases of a few percent. What we need is an increase of 10x (1000%). There really isn't a technology on the near horizon that could get us there. A 2x improvement in battery life would make me consider a smartphone. As it is, the battery life limitation impacts my lifestyle in a negative way that more than offsets the potential benefits provided. Fortunately, alternatives still exist, but they are going away. Non-smart phones appear to be a dying breed.

@TG: Shouldn't that third name be Harold?

[baja_yu]

@i00 - meh, that graphic doesn't mean much out of context, specifically how were the metrics obtained, and measured. +16% ... ok... of what though? If I have a base of 100 apps and I load 16 new ones, that's a 16% increase in apps... but it still isn't much. My competitor on the other hand has 100,000 apps and adds 16,000 new ones, that's also 16%, much more impressive. Granted iWhatever and Google apps are closer, but you also have to look at the distribution methods... Apple employs a very strict set of testing and validation... so there's a longer time to market. Google app store on the other hand, is more freely open, meaning just about and Thomas, Richard or Harry can put their app out there. Does it also take into consideration apps listed multiple times (some have a free or lite version as well as a paid/full version)... and what about the alternative markets? Amazon also has their own version of the app store... it duplicates things you find on the Google App Store... so if I have an app listed in both, is it added twice? or once?

So, the graphic, while all nice and purdy, is meaningless.

-tg

Nothing could be further from the truth. There is nothing "strict", let alone "very strict" about the approval process for Apple App Store. Since they got into a pissing contest with Google over who has more apps in their store, there has been more and more crap. Even worse than Google Market, you not only have free/lite and paid versions, but you have separate free/paid combos for iPad as well. The only thing Apple is strict about is use of private API and their own trademarks in app names and descriptions. Longer time to market? Approval process takes usually 5-7 days so I don't think that compares even a little to time needed to develop a decent app.

[baja_yu]

Amen!!

Batteries are holding back this world, frankly. The best battery on the market today has a truly pathetic energy density when compared to other power sources. A significant increase in the energy density of batteries would revolutionize the world. We are seeing increases of a few percent. What we need is an increase of 10x (1000%). There really isn't a technology on the near horizon that could get us there. A 2x improvement in battery life would make me consider a smartphone. As it is, the battery life limitation impacts my lifestyle in a negative way that more than offsets the potential benefits provided. Fortunately, alternatives still exist, but they are going away. Non-smart phones appear to be a dying breed.

@TG: Shouldn't that third name be Harold?

I doubt it will get better any time soon, not because of the technology regarding battery production but because how device makers choose to spend it. The overall trend when it comes to battery life of cell phones has always been downward, until at one point we had devices that used so much they actually shipped them with a spare battery that you kept charged and carried around in a pouch so you can swap. That was the line where they stopped and centered on giving you a "fair days" use so you can charge it over night and use it during the day. Why wont it get better? Simply because they know that the majority of population is satisfied with this 'one day' and they'll always try to cram as much functionality into it as long as it could last a day. Why would they hold back on features and functionality to get you 3 or 4 days when they know you'll take one.

[moti barski]

as for : iphone 4s : kind of not logical such a new device to run megason games

[Shaggy Hiker]

Why would they hold back on features and functionality to get you 3 or 4 days when they know you'll take one.

Because it isn't their decision to make.

The manufacturers are very limitted in what battery life they can offer. They are using the best battery technology in existence today, and are making a trade-off between size and battery life. The charge on any device is dependent on how they make that decision. After all, any of these devices could be made to run for weeks at a time, though you'd be hard pressed to carry the battery around.

A manufacturer doesn't make a 5mm thick smartphone with all the features and a week long battery life, not because they don't want to, but because they can't. No current battery could last that long at the power usage of those phones and in the size allowed. On the other hand, no manufacturer is building the batteries, exactly. They might say, "the battery must be this size.", but they can't say, "the battery must be this size and must last for two weeks" unless they have a LOT of space to work with. Once they know the size of the space, they know the limitations on the battery. Once they also know the power consumption metrics for the hardware, they know the length of time the device will remain powered within the limitations of the battery. Those are pretty tight bounds, too. Lithium batteries are as good as it currently gets when it comes to energy density, and that's what's used in the phones. What you currently get is the best you can get in that form factor. To extend the life, you have to drop features or increase the size of the phone. Neither is appealing, so we are stuck with what we have.

If a new battery technology came out with 2x the energy density, then we could have longer life in the phone with the same form factor and feature set. At that time, the only reason that a manufacturer would stick with the weaker battery would be if the new batteries were prohibitively expensive.

Our devices are largely constrained by our ability to power them.

[baja_yu]

That's true, but it is their decision. They decide not to make the phone 20mm think and have a large battery that lasts a week, instead they make it 10mm and it lasts a day or two. If we do get more powerful batteries in the future I doubt it will result in longer battery life because they'll just use the advantage to make the battery even smaller to result in a smaller/lighter device. There of course is a limit to size factor when smaller becomes too small, but were are pretty much there now. As smartphones become more and more popular, anything less than a 3" screen is to small, thickness is pretty much on the limit as well, I'm not sure a 3 mm thick phone would be very usable, and for that the battery would have to be 1mm thick. I just don't see it.

[Icyculyr]

So why then do you think Siri isn't available for iPad 2? What does the "educated forum user" say about that?

He's not said anything about that. I'm not exactly stalking him on the forums though, so I wouldn't know.

Amen!!

Batteries are holding back this world, frankly. The best battery on the market today has a truly pathetic energy density when compared to other power sources. A significant increase in the energy density of batteries would revolutionize the world. We are seeing increases of a few percent. What we need is an increase of 10x (1000&#37. There really isn't a technology on the near horizon that could get us there. A 2x improvement in battery life would make me consider a smartphone. As it is, the battery life limitation impacts my lifestyle in a negative way that more than offsets the potential benefits provided. Fortunately, alternatives still exist, but they are going away. Non-smart phones appear to be a dying breed.

@TG: Shouldn't that third name be Harold?

Indeed, battery tech needs a break through!

>>>

So, here's some video of Siri in action: the first is some kid, and a bit funny saying things like how old are you, can we be friends, what's your name, I love you, etc. I only watched about four minutes so far.

The second is after the Keynote, and has just been released.

I like what I see... it seems pretty accurate in the second (with normal voice).

[baja_yu]

He's not said anything about that. I'm not exactly stalking him on the forums though, so I wouldn't know.

And what's your take on it?


Personally, I wish voice recognition would be implemented in all aspects of life, but I'd make it only recognize proper English (and any other language). Maybe people will learn to speak properly at least, if they can't write it.

[Icyculyr]

And what's your take on it?


Personally, I wish voice recognition would be implemented in all aspects of life, but I'd make it only recognize proper English (and any other language). Maybe people will learn to speak properly at least, if they can't write it.

I don't really see why it shouldn't. We'll see soon enough if there is a valid reason or not.

[Max Peck]

Hey, maybe the iPhones are crap guys, but my wife and I both have an iPhone4 and the things work great. Just spent two weeks navigating around the Northeastern U.S. using the built-in GPS systems, keeping up with everybody, reading my books, keeping track of the subways (maps & all) and, oh yeah, they're great phones too! I won't go into the dozen or so other things I do with this little beast, since y'all (Shaggy) think they're crap. ;-)

-Max

[Icyculyr]

Here's a link to a MacRumors article announcing five reviews available now: http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/11/...ience-fiction/

Here's a video from MacWorld too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...=5mNcnj2l6RE#!

[baja_yu]

You read books on a 3.5" screen? I'd hate to be your eyes.

[Icyculyr]

You read books on a 3.5" screen? I'd hate to be your eyes.

I don't do it often but it's certainly not a problem. You can change the font and font size, or background (white or sepia) as well as the brightness specifically when using the iBooks app. Unless you don't fair well staring at LED screens, you'll be fine. I would suppose you know this though, since you own and iP4 right? Or haven't you tried the iBooks app?

[Crusoe]

I have lots of colleagues with Android phones, and they have shown me all kinds of neat apps for them. There is only one problem: The apps are neat, not useful. Everybody seems to use their phones for voices, texting, and e-mail, but the rest of the stuff is rarely, if ever, useful.

[baja_yu]

I don't do it often but it's certainly not a problem. You can change the font and font size, or background (white or sepia) as well as the brightness specifically when using the iBooks app. Unless you don't fair well staring at LED screens, you'll be fine. I would suppose you know this though, since you own and iP4 right? Or haven't you tried the iBooks app?

I was asking Max, but it doesn't matter. Yes, I tried it and it was awful. The screen is just to small for it. iPad is a different matter though, much better, though a bit on the heavy side. When it comes to reading books you just can't beat Kindle, especially the latest model.

[GaryMazzone]

baja yu I don't know about that (can't beet the kindle) I have a Nook color and think it is great for reading books and also getting on line at home when I don't care to turn on the computer just to check email

[Shaggy Hiker]

but I'd make it only recognize proper English (and any other language).

Oh, right, cut Americans out of the market. Nice of you.

[baja_yu]

I didn't mean the lorry/truck, British vs US English, just decent pronunciation. And if you say "like" more than twice per minute it would turn off your phone.

[GaryMazzone]

Like why like would you like want to like do that?

[Shaggy Hiker]

I didn't mean the lorry/truck, British vs US English, just decent pronunciation. And if you say "like" more than twice per minute it would turn off your phone.

See??? Either of those would chop out half the population of this continent. Filter out statements ending in 'eh' and you would filter out the other half.

[Max Peck]

You read books on a 3.5" screen? I'd hate to be your eyes.

With the retina display they're very clear and easy to read - novels, that is. No, I don't use it for my technical books or magazine type content, I agree with you there. For reading novels, though, I have no problem with it. I wear reading glasses anyway and the device is much easier to hold for long periods of time than even a paperback is.

-Max

[techgnome]

Why Siri won't last - http://bit.ly/noT71r

-tg

[Icyculyr]

Why Siri won't last - http://bit.ly/noT71r

-tg

I stopped reading shortly after this:

In other words, Siri’s most impressive feats will become a banality within a year or two. Excitement about what Siri can do will be replaced by frustration about what Siri cannot do.

Siri is going to continue to evolve, to improve. As they said at the Keynote, Siri is "beta", they are going to add more languages and more services over time and no doubt they'll improve it in general. It's almost as if the writer of that article is suggesting that Siri isn't going to get any better in the next two years.

[GaryMazzone]

So if the artical disagrees with Apple then it is of no value, after all you believe everything that apple tells you is the absolute truth. They would never lie to you or put them selfs in the best light possibe since they only have the best interest of the user at heart.

Right?

[techgnome]

@Icyculyr - so then you missed the point of the article...even if it does improve... there's more to it than simple (or even complex) voice recognition... there's also context... you should read the article, seriously. It doesn't say that it's crap... but that in a couple years, even with advancements, it could be surpassed by Google's ability to do data mining that Apple can't.

-tg