Intellectual property question

[D-niss]

Hello fellow coders,

I have a question regarding intellectual property.
I seem to remember reading, back then, that any application developed with VBA or VB belongs to its author without the need of any specific legal process (copyrights).
It is apparently incorporated in the MS license agreement. I’m talking about application done under no specific employment contract or agreement.

Does anyone knows if it’s true and if it gives the author legal protection without the need of any additional copyright?

I now vba code is easy to crack, I’m really interested in the legal aspect of it’s ownership.

If anyone can share a light on this I’d appreciate.

Thanks
Dniss

[Joacim Andersson]

Yes, source code is always an intellectual property belonging to the author, in the same manner the story of a book is the intellectual property of the author.

[szlamany]

It has nothing to do with the MS license.

Copyright is granted to an author - even without attempting to register or "futher" legalize it.

[D-niss]

Yes, source code is always an intellectual property belonging to the author, in the same manner the story of a book is the intellectual property of the author.

Hi Joacim,

Like I said, I know MS has stated so somewhere but I can't find any related link to that effect. I was looking for documentation. If you know where I should look plz tell me. So far it only gets me MS own copyrights info.

Thanks

[D-niss]

It has nothing to do with the MS license.

Copywrite is granted to an author - even without attempting to register or "futher" legalize it.

Yes I know, I was looking for some MS documentation that states exactly what you said. I know it's there I've seen it before. I'm having a argument with one of my client, pulling the MS document would add some credibility to my claim.

Thanks

[Muddy]

If you have something your concerned about, its worth a visit to www.uspto.gov . The sight has some decent guides that explain just what copyright does and does not protect ... and some additional benefits of officially registering material for copyright.

A somewhat common misunderstanding is the assumption that copyright protects an idea (algorithms, processes, etc) which it does not.

Any knowledgeable person who hires you to write code for them will no doubt have you sign a "work for hire" agreement which usually strips you of any rights (including copyrights) to the work.

[Muddy]

Yes I know, I was looking for some MS documentation that states exactly what you said. I know it's there I've seen it before. I'm having a argument with one of my client, pulling the MS document would add some credibility to my claim.

Thanks

I would think that documentation from www.uspto.gov would be more credible in your argument since MS doest make law ...

[jcis]

But what happends if I take the source code from your pc and I say I did the program? So I could sell it without any problem.
I think that is why you should register it.

[szlamany]

But what happends if I take the source code from your machine and I say I did the program? So I could sell it without any problem.
I think that is why you should register it.

Keep in mind that you have to litigate an offense against your copyright. You might be a step closer to winning that lawsuit with a registered copyright - but it's not the answer to the problem.

[Muddy]

But what happends if I take the source code from your machine and I say I did the program? So I could sell it without any problem.
I think that is why you should register it.

that is probably the biggest benefit of registration. I think there are also some additional damages you can sue for if the copyright is registered.

[D-niss]

If you have something your concerned about, its worth a visit to www.uspto.gov . The sight has some decent guides that explain just what copyright does and does not protect ... and some additional benefits of officially registering material for copyright.

A somewhat common misunderstanding is the assumption that copyright protects an idea (algorithms, processes, etc) which it does not.

Any knowledgeable person who hires you to write code for them will no doubt have you sign a "work for hire" agreement which usually strips you of any rights (including copyrights) to the work.

Well in the particular case, they have not. I'm not worried so much that they will sell my application to others, as this would be rather difficult. I'm more concern about them cloning my code to use internally for new applications, which suggest they had no prior knowledge on how to do it in the 1st place.

I feel that I'm being stolen from because I've never given my authorisation.
I'm not sure what to do at this point, this is a good client and I don't want to loose their business over such a small app. On the other hand, if they clone my work they won't need me as much in the future.

I'd take anyone advice or experience on the matter at this point.

[Muddy]

Keep in mind that you have to litigate an offense against your copyright. You might be a step closer to winning that lawsuit with a registered copyright - but it's not the answer to the problem.

true ... and add to that the fact that the theif might be in another country where copyright laws arent enforced even if they do exist ...

[szlamany]

Well in the particular case, they have not. I'm not worried so much that they will sell my application to others, as this would be rather difficult. I'm more concern about them cloning my code to use internally for new applications, which suggest they had no prior knowledge on how to do it in the 1st place.

I feel that I'm being stolen from because I've never given my authorisation.
I'm not sure what to do at this point, this is a good client and I don't want to loose their business over such a small app. On the other hand, if they clone my work they won't need me as much in the future.

I'd take anyone advice or experience on the matter at this point.

Well - that's completely different.

We survive by being a resource to our customers. I would never want to get into a battle over rights with a client - once the relationship goes "legal" it's over...

[Muddy]

Well in the particular case, they have not. I'm not worried so much that they will sell my application to others, as this would be rather difficult. I'm more concern about them cloning my code to use internally for new applications, which suggest they had no prior knowledge on how to do it in the 1st place.

I feel that I'm being stolen from because I've never given my authorisation.
I'm not sure what to do at this point, this is a good client and I don't want to loose their business over such a small app. On the other hand, if they clone my work they won't need me as much in the future.

I'd take anyone advice or experience on the matter at this point.

OK, firstly I am not a lawyer so take my advice for what it is ... the opinion of someone you dont know on the internet ...
The person who "stole" likely didnt do anything illegal. He saw a product in the public domain and made a work with similar functionality (Im assuming it isnt similar enough to violate copyright). If your licensee was under agreement with you to protect your trade secrets then your client might have breached his contract with you by letting the supposed "theif" have access to the work to begin with.
Again im not a lawyer so dont take this as legal advice, ... I could be completely wrong ...

[D-niss]

But what happends if I take the source code from your pc and I say I did the program? So I could sell it without any problem.
I think that is why you should register it.

Yes but I'm sure you'd have to be able to create an application like this on your own. Otherwise it would not be that difficult to prove I did it.

I'm not so much worried about the code itself but more about the expertise behind it. I guess at this point it's more a question of ethic form the customer.

[Muddy]

OHHHHHH .... a CLIENT ... I missed that ...
I've had a VERY similar situation. I made a polite call to the IT manager of the company in question who resolved the situation .... there were no hard feelings.
I even said jokingly several times "its not like we'd sue our best client, but heres what we agreed to in the license x years ago, and here is how you are breaking that agreement ..." I think most reputable companies would be sympathetic ....

get your companies best "talker" to do this ...

[Muddy]

Yes but I'm sure you'd have to be able to create an application like this on your own. Otherwise it would not be that difficult to prove I did it.

I'm not so much worried about the code itself but more about the expertise behind it. I guess at this point it's more a question of ethic form the customer.

you have to remember that copyright does NOT protect the "expertise behind it" . If you dont have a license agreement that protects "expertise" with them, then i dont see how they are doing anything wrong or unethical ...

[D-niss]

Well - that's completely different.

We survive by being a resource to our customers. I would never want to get into a battle over rights with a client - once the relationship goes "legal" it's over...

Yes ain't that the truth. It's a big company and I wouldn't have the ressources to fight them anyway. The relationship is not down the drain yet, it's still salvagable. Perhaps I should point out my concern to them and hope they can't make it work on their own.

I feel it's a loose vs loose situation for me.

[D-niss]

you have to remember that copyright does NOT protect the "expertise behind it" . If you dont have a license agreement that protects "expertise" with them, then i dont see how they are doing anything wrong or unethical ...

There's no agreement at all. lol.

Well that's my mistake I presume, I should have thought of that before hand.

[RobDog888]

I have been in this situation before with a client too. Whay my company had done before hand was to place verbiage in the quote/agreement that the client is licensed to use the app but our company owned the rights to the code. Basically nothing very strong but at least they added some acknowledgement that the client didnt own the code they paid me to write, only the use of the program.

Moved from Classic VB.

[Joacim Andersson]

So this is more of a question on how to protect your intellectual property rather then to have an explanation of what intellectual property means? Stealing source code and claim that it's yours is just as legal as to steal the manuscript of a novel and claim that you wrote it. Copyrights, Trademarks, and Patents are all ways of protecting intellectual properties (even though patents for software program can be possible in most cases it isn't). However I've never heard of anyone paying the copyright registration fee for a VBA application . The easiest solution here would be a license agreement that clearly states how your solution may be used. Even if it might be easy to crack a VBA app, doing so may not be legal.

[RobDog888]

Right, and then if that client does do something all you have to do is enforce your agreement, legal binding contract, and politely inform them that they are breaking the contract. Maybe a solution at that point would be to sll them the code and charge them support hours for any help or issues they come into while trying to implement it.

[D-niss]

I have been in this situation before with a client too. Whay my company had done before hand was to place verbiage in the quote/agreement that the client is licensed to use the app but our company owned the rights to the code. Basically nothing very strong but at least they added some acknowledgement that the client didnt own the code they paid me to write, only the use of the program.

Moved from Classic VB.

Hi Rob,

It must have been a kickass application cause most client wants to own the code, since they're paying "big bucks" for it.

[D-niss]

So this is more of a question on how to protect your intellectual property rather then to have an explanation of what intellectual property means? Stealing source code and claim that it's yours is just as legal as to steal the manuscript of a novel and claim that you wrote it. Copyrights, Trademarks, and Patents are all ways of protecting intellectual properties (even though patents for software program can be possible in most cases it isn't). However I've never heard of anyone paying the copyright registration fee for a VBA application . The easiest solution here would be a license agreement that clearly states how your solution may be used. Even if it might be easy to crack a VBA app, doing so may not be legal.

Yes I know what you mean, it is not a revolutionnary application by any standard. You win some you loose some, seems to me I was owned on this one. I'll try to salvage the relation at this point, I think it worth more than a few lines of VBA.

[D-niss]

Thanks to all, this is what I was looking for.

[Muddy]

Many times it goes like this:
1) The company gets you to sign a work for hire agreement (good for 5 years or so with some permanent surviving clauses beyond that) before they will give you the first purchase order (much less paycheck). The fine print says that it supersedes any purchase order, verbal agreement, handshake, etc and can only be ammended or changed in writing signed by both parties
2) The coder doesnt read (maybe even doesnt remember) the agreement and starts putting conditions and terms into Proposals and Invoices (maybe even getting the specific person at the company requesting the proposal to write it into the Purchase Order) thinking he is covered
3) If anything ever comes up, however, the only thing that matters is in the work for hire agreement

[MartinLiss]

If you are worried about someone stealing your code, put a copy on a CD and mail it to yourself. The postmark will date it so don't open it unless you need it as proof of when you wrote it.

[RobDog888]

Thats what registering your code with the copyright office does and it provides more rights too. Its inexpensive and worth it.

[D-niss]

If you are worried about someone stealing your code, put a copy on a CD and mail it to yourself. The postmark will date it so don't open it unless you need it as proof of when you wrote it.

Thanks, good idea.

[D-niss]

Thats what registering your code with the copyright office does and it provides more rights too. Its inexpensive and worth it.

I hope it's nothing like a patend, cause those are fairly expensive.
Again I'm not worried so much about what the app do, more about them
using my technique so they don't have to hire me afterward.

[D-niss]

Many times it goes like this:
1) The company gets you to sign a work for hire agreement (good for 5 years or so with some permanent surviving clauses beyond that) before they will give you the first purchase order (much less paycheck). The fine print says that it supersedes any purchase order, verbal agreement, handshake, etc and can only be ammended or changed in writing signed by both parties
2) The coder doesnt read (maybe even doesnt remember) the agreement and starts putting conditions and terms into Proposals and Invoices (maybe even getting the specific person at the company requesting the proposal to write it into the Purchase Order) thinking he is covered
3) If anything ever comes up, however, the only thing that matters is in the work for hire agreement

Yes I understand how a contract works, if I had one, it wouldn't raise any issue.